Contradictions between Big B. & Ev. theories with Bible

[Archie the Preacher]

Why even believe in bilions and milions of years for creation, why would God need, or use, that?

So, you think the God who is Eternal, uncreated and deathless, was for some reason in a hurry? Presuming (as I do) that God is Eternal, any calculation or guess of how long God sat around Heaven PRIOR to starting this Universe is meaningless. It was not only longer than you think or imagine, it was longer than you can grasp.

Then God created the heavens and the Earth.

After the Earth runs its course and ends as such, God will be around Eternally.

So why was He in such an all fired hurry for such a minuscule period of time? Did someone give Him a dead line?

 

[Revealing Times]

So, you think the God who is Eternal, uncreated and deathless, was for some reason in a hurry? Presuming (as I do) that God is Eternal, any calculation or guess of how long God sat around Heaven PRIOR to starting this Universe is meaningless. It was not only longer than you think or imagine, it was longer than you can grasp.

Then God created the heavens and the Earth.

After the Earth runs its course and ends as such, God will be around Eternally.

So why was He in such an all fired hurry for such a minuscule period of time? Did someone give Him a dead line?

Yes, and God is not restrained by time. When he commanded the universe into existence, he also lived in the future, so he lives in all planes of times at once. So God doesn't "Wait". He just is.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

But doesn't God have the power to create instantly, or in a short amount of time?

God has the power to do most anything. But obviously you don't believe He has the power to fulfill His will using the mechanism of evolution. How sad.

In Mr. Ham's case and in mine, we believe what is written in the book of Genesis.

No. In Mr. Ham's case and yours, you believe what someone (Bishop Ussher via a long line of parrots) told you about what is written in the Book of Genesis.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

This is fascinating. The 'Big Bang' - actually the "Cosmic Egg" (not directly related to either the Greek or Hindu creation myths) theory of Father Georges Lemaitre - is a derogatory term applied by one of the chief opponents of the "Cosmic Egg" theory, Fred (later Sir Fred) Hoyle.

The short version is Fred Hoyle thought the idea of the Universe starting at a specific point in time was 'too reminiscent' of the Biblical version and therefore strove for several decades to disprove such an event. Fred Hoyle's opinion was the universe has always existed and God was a myth. Sir Fred 'Steady State' theory was finally wiped out by being 'falsified' (shown to be incorrect) in 1965.

So, all those who oppose the "Cosmic Egg" side with those who wanted to discredit the Bible. And have no idea about it.

 

[Sapiens]

God has the power to do most anything. But obviously you don't believe He has the power to fulfill His will using the mechanism of evolution. How sad.

No. In Mr. Ham's case and yours, you believe what someone (Bishop Ussher via a long line of parrots) told you about what is written in the Book of Genesis.

No need to be sassy here. I never denied God's power. All I'm saying, is not that God can't but rather that He wouldn't and didn't.

 

[Sapiens]

This is fascinating. The 'Big Bang' - actually the "Cosmic Egg" (not directly related to either the Greek or Hindu creation myths) theory of Father Georges Lemaitre - is a derogatory term applied by one of the chief opponents of the "Cosmic Egg" theory, Fred (later Sir Fred) Hoyle.

The short version is Fred Hoyle thought the idea of the Universe starting at a specific point in time was 'too reminiscent' of the Biblical version and therefore strove for several decades to disprove such an event. Fred Hoyle's opinion was the universe has always existed and God was a myth. Sir Fred 'Steady State' theory was finally wiped out by being 'falsified' (shown to be incorrect) in 1965.

So, all those who oppose the "Cosmic Egg" side with those who wanted to discredit the Bible. And have no idea about it.

Whoa whoa whoa, back up a bit here. How is opposing to the BB theory equal to discrediting the Bible? I'm doing just the opposite, I'm promoting the veracity of it. I'm not arguing for an uncreated universe here...

 

[Sapiens]

So, you think the God who is Eternal, uncreated and deathless, was for some reason in a hurry? Presuming (as I do) that God is Eternal, any calculation or guess of how long God sat around Heaven PRIOR to starting this Universe is meaningless. It was not only longer than you think or imagine, it was longer than you can grasp.

Then God created the heavens and the Earth.

After the Earth runs its course and ends as such, God will be around Eternally.

So why was He in such an all fired hurry for such a minuscule period of time? Did someone give Him a dead line?

Ok, good answer. So it's not a problem for God but my question was also "why would He use that?". But I admit it's possible on that angle.

However, upon trying to answer that question, is where the trouble start. Not only that, but the compatibility of the scriptures is seriously compromised too. First, when was the first sin? When were the primates to be considered humans like us? Was suffering, illness, the world's harshness, evil and death caused after a sin that would have corrupted a perfect world or was it the means used by God to create to begin with?

There lies the true problem. From what do we need to be freed? Indeed, isn't the world the way it is already meant to be then?

I believe not.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Ok, good answer. So it's not a problem for God but my question was also "why would He use that?". But I admit it's possible.

Sapiens, I don't normally come to this forum anymore. But when prompted, I attempt to give satisfaction.

"Why would He use that?" It's been a bit, but I believe this question refers to "Why would God take a very long time to effect Creation of the Universe?"

Like many facets of My Lord, there are many things to which I don't have the answer. "Why did He set up forgiveness and salvation for humanity?" being the one that really stumps me. So I won't speak for Him. But I do have a couple of suggestions or thoughts that fit in with what I know of the nature of God.

In the first place, it is exactly what the evidence shows. in the early part of the 20th Century, the Cosmic Egg theory was forwarded and all the traditionalist Christians were horrified. One counter argument - deriving earlier in fact to 'counter' the erroneous concept Christians had of Darwinian evolution - was the Divine Deception idea. I can't remember who it was now (probably suppressed the information out of disgust) but the core of the idea was God purposely put things like fossils and such in the layers of dirt on the Earth to 'fool the ungodly' into thinking the Earth was much older than it was; only the righteous would ignore such and be secure in God.

Until someone pointed out that theory assumes God to be a fraud; someone akin to a faker who 'salts' a gold mine. God was - according to the righteous nonsense being published - a liar. One doesn't hear this idea much anymore. Could God do such a thing? God certainly has the ability, but God does not contradict His own nature; one facet of which is Truth.

But the evidence from geology, astronomy, physics and such indicate the Universe and the Earth is much older than the Bishop Ussher version.

Why else would God have done the long way? I don't think He's in a hurry. Why not? Scripture mentions with the Lord, a day is like a thousand years and vice versa. I decline the view this is an EXACT substitution code and rather understand it to mean 'time' is not at all the same thing in God's mind as it is in a human mind. Seriously, what's 14 Billion years (a little less, actually) to an infinite being?

I'm going off on a tangent here for a moment. "Could God [fill in the blank]?"

Somewhere in discussions like this, some Ussherite always asks "Well, could God create it all in six days?" Of course 'God could'. Then the Ussherite brightly smiles and announces, "That PROVES it, then!" Whereupon I usually ask the obvious question of "Could God have done it the other way?" And the Ussherite goes into something akin to epileptic shock. "NO! He wouldn't! He didn't! NO! NO!" When they get their breath back, I ask the question, "Why wouldn't He?" The answer is invariably a variation of "He wouldn't do that!" Circular reasoning.

So while I cannot give a 'reason' for God's choice of method, the information says He did.

Allow me one more side trip. Does a star emit light and radiation energy due to nuclear fusion, or because God says so (Wills it)? The answer - if one reflects (no pun intended) on the matter is 'Yes'. One answer does not preclude the other. Not to mention the fusion process is the result of the laws of physics established by God from the start. Too many folks can't quite grasp that.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Whoa whoa whoa, back up a bit here. How is opposing to the BB theory equal to discrediting the Bible? I'm doing just the opposite, I'm promoting the veracity of it. I'm not arguing for an uncreated universe here...

Hmmm. I can't find where I said something like that.

However, in opposing - denying - the realistic long time version of creation, the Ussherites are denying God's power and Will by essentially saying "God is limited to MY understanding and ideas of how to do things."

Now watch. Some one will come along, read this and exclaim, "No, I'm not limiting God. I'm reading the Bible!" The ego-centric reasoning inherent in that comment is they assume I haven't, or assume I'm too stupid or too unrighteous to understand it, and only their understanding of the first couple chapters of Genesis is what limits God. Shall we time it?

 

[Sapiens]

He's quite convincing....but not for too long.
Eventually his motivations get in the way
of thought.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Sapiens]

I don't get your point. God lives in the past, future and present all at once, so what God created 13.7 billion years ago, became today for him in an instant. It is not like he had to wait per se.
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The Big Bang did happen, but it happened 13.7 some odd billion years ago. Their problems is in understanding that a day (yom) in Hebrew can also mean a period of time, that has an evening and morning. Yom 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year.

Inflation lasted 360,000 years followed by 400 Million years of Darkness (there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep) then at the 400 million year mark, suns started to come into being, and of course they were still being created when our Sun and Earth came into existence 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (400 million years of Darkness) and the Morning, (9 Billion years of Stars) were the first day. Then Earth and the Sun was the Second day, etc. etc. The story is in perfect order, because the 5th day (500 million yeas to 250 million BC.) was the Sea Animals which came before the Land animals on the 6th day. (250 Million years BC to 6000 BC) and then Man was created IN GODS IMAGE 6000 years ago. There might have been animals created like men before this time, but they did not have the imparted Spirit of God that made us like unto Him.

Now we are living in the Seventh Day.

I was just responding to Hoghead, by introducing the idea that God doesn't need lengthy amount of times to create, that is the atheist using chance as the explanation for all.

I would just like to ask you this: how is it "known" that it's 13.7 billion years ago that it all started? You see, I think it's more of an estimate, and that the theory of BB is but an unproved and unprovable hypothesis. It only depends how we interpret the evidence we have.

 

[SkyWriting]

...So if they Create the universe, that means they Predate the universe. WOW, do you see it coming ?
Quantum Fluctuations (Set of forces/Laws of nature, is a must)
1) Not Physical
2) Acts on the Physical
3) Created the Physical from Nothing
4) Predates the Universe
What does that sound like to you ? The Biblical God !!
1. God is a Spirit He is not a Physical being ( God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in like manner )
2. God said, In the Beginning ( So the Physical had a beginning )
3. God created all matter from nothing ( God created the Heaven and the Earth )
4. God is Eternal, the bible says so in many places.

You are correct that science confirms the need for a pre-existing condition
that resides outside of time. But there are factors such as order, and intelligence
as a result, that call for order and intelligence as a pre existing condition as well.

 

[SkyWriting]

What's that supposed to mean?

His answers follow a pre-set script that negates further thought.
For example, how were there "24-hour days" as he insisted
before the sun and stars were created on day 4?

 

[Revealing Times]

His answers follow a pre-set script that negates further thought.
For example, how were there "24-hour days" as he insisted
before the sun and stars were created on day 4?

Earth was here on Day 2, so the sun was also. The Earth couldn't be here without the sun holding it in its orbit. And grasses came on the third day. God was setting the Seasons on Day four, or fixing the axis by placing the moon in its optimal position so we could have regular seasons.

You are correct that science confirms the need for a pre-existing condition
that resides outside of time. But there are factors such as order, and intelligence
as a result, that call for order and intelligence as a pre existing condition as well.

I got you, yes no doubt, my point was that the Quantum Fluctuations the cite, is nothing but God.

I was just responding to Hoghead, by introducing the idea that God doesn't need lengthy amount of times to create, that is the atheist using chance as the explanation for all.

I would just like to ask you this: how is it "known" that it's 13.7 billion years ago that it all started? You see, I think it's more of an estimate, and that the theory of BB is but an unproved and unprovable hypothesis. It only depends how we interpret the evidence we have.

Ok, O gotcha now..........We can kinda see back in time, we can make calculations and measurement, that tell us how fast he Universe expanded (or else it would have collapsed) etc. etc. They actually Mapped the UNIVERSE with Microwaves and basically got a Picture of the whole Universe and it shows everything in Detail. It is the WMAP/NASA Map.

 

[SkyWriting]

Earth was here on Day 2, so the sun was also. The Earth couldn't be here without the sun holding it in its orbit. And grasses came on the third day. God was setting the Seasons on Day four, or fixing the axis by placing the moon in its optimal position so we could have regular seasons.

This is not a cooking show. And I agree about the earth and sun being in place before creation week.
Either be literal or lie about being literal.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

There is litterally no room to be wishy washy about this:
"Let there be lights" and again:
"God made the two great lights" and again:
"He made the stars also." all credited to:
"a fourth day."

So you litterally have no literal leg to stand on.

 

[SkyWriting]

I got you, yes no doubt, my point was that the Quantum Fluctuations the cite, is nothing but God.

They cite nothing about God. The intention is to show that God is not needed
and instead is a mindless function of matter. (Which is just energy anyway so...)

 

[Revealing Times]

They cite nothing about God. The intention is to show that God is not needed
and instead is a mindless function of matter. (Which is just energy anyway so...)

Their "Quantum Fluctuations" is God, did you not understand my point ?

I could care less what they think.

 

[Revealing Times]

This is not a cooking show. And I agree about the earth and sun being in place before creation week.
Either be literal or lie about being literal.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

There is litterally no room to be wishy washy about this:
"Let there be lights" and again:
"God made the two great lights" and again:
"He made the stars also." all credited to:
"a fourth day."

So you litterally have no literal leg to stand on.

This is where many people just don't seem to be able to grasps all the facts. The Hebrews had a language of about 4000 words compared to the English vocabulary of 500,000 words, and they had no vowels. Also, they wrote in a very different manner, you would have to study primitive writing to understand this point. They had many different styles and writing ways. You see, we might not do the same things now. For instance, when the writer said in verse 14, that God says "Let there be Light.............etc. etc. He was retelling Gods original order in verse 3, this doesn't in any wise mean God created the Lights/Stars again. TO PROVE MY POINT.....Aren't stars still being created ? And have been forever. But God says He rested on the Seventh Day didn't he ? Which means he CEASED his Creating, it doesn't mean He was tired. So God Rested, but is STILL CREATING !!! Or is he ? No the COMMAND was GIVEN to bring forth the Universe in verse 1 and God commanded all Lights or Stars to come forth in verse 3. God never had to command this again, IT WAS JUST A FACT, God commanded it, then it came to pass.

All verse 14-18 is doing is giving everyone a play by play account at how Earth gets its Lights, how the Moon is the Lesser Light and how he Stars are to be used for Signs/Guides of Travel. And the KEY WORD in all of these verses is SEASONS, God SET THE SEASONS.

Your/our biggest problem is trying to assume primitive writers had the same style as us. They did not. They had far fewer words also, and the English translations are nowhere near perfect. Verse 14-18 is only the Writer giving a play by play account of HOW THE EARTH HAS LIGHT AND DARKNESS....Something else I bet you didn't or might not know/understand.

There are no Chapters and Verses anywhere in the Bible, they were added sometime in the Fourth Century I think, it could have been later. POINT BEING....Many times these things were written in sections, by themselves, and were each stories in themselves of what God was relating to the author at that time. God might have given this to the author one day at a time, or in three day sections, who knows, but the whole Torah is one long scroll. Or many scrolls I should say.

 

[SkyWriting]

This is where many people just don't seem to be able to grasps all the facts. The Hebrews had a language of about 4000 words compared to the English vocabulary of 500,000 words, and they had no vowels. Also, they wrote in a very different manner, you would have to study primitive writing to understand this point. They had many different styles and writing ways. You see, we might not do the same things now. For instance, when the writer said in verse 14, that God says "Let there be Lights.............etc. etc. He was retelling Gods original order in verse 3, this doesn't in any wise mean God created the Lights again. TO PROVE MY POINT.....Aren't stars still being created ? And have been forever. But God says He rested on the Seventh Day didn't he ? Which means he CEASED his Creating, it doesn't mean He was tired. So God Rested, but is STILL CREATING !!! Or is he ? No the COMMAND was GIVEN to bring forth the Universe in verse 1 and God commanded all Lights or Stars to come forth in verse 3. God never had to command this again, IT WAS JUST A FACT, God commanded it, then it came to pass.

All verse 14-18 is doing is giving everyone a play by play account at how Earth gets its Lights, how the Moon is the Lesser Lights and how he Stars are to be used for Signs/Guides of Travel. And the KEY WORD in all of these verses is SEASONS, God SET THE SEASONS.

Your biggest problem is trying to assume primitive writers had the same style as us. They did not. They had far fewer words also, and the English translations are nowhere near perfect. Verse 14-18 is only the Writer giving a play by play accout of HOW THE EARTH HAS LIGHT AND DARKNESS....Something else I bet yo didn't or might not know/understand.

There are no Chapters and Verses anywhere in the Bible, they were added sometime in the Fourth Century I think, it could have been later. POINT BEING....Many times these things were written in sections, by themselves, and were each stories in themselves of what God was relating to the author at that time. God might have given this to the author one day at a time, or in three day sections, who knows, but the whole Torah is one long scroll. Or many scrolls I should say.

But I agree with you completely...it's not a literal account.
The point being made is that it that Creation was by God's
hand and not a random event. That's what the story is
intending to convey. Not that a certain order has any
relevance. As weird as fanatics get, still, I don't recall
one saying the order of creation has a lesson hidden in it.

But the Bible is clear that scripture is not that important.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[SkyWriting]

Their "Quantum Fluctuations" is God, did you not understand my point ?
I could care less what they think.

You mean they had to invent something that was unknowable. Sure.
Reality is based on cause and effect. One has to break the rules
to get past what is real.