Contradictions between Big B. & Ev. theories with Bible

Sapiens

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Hello,

So I've been reading and studying this debate for a while now. I've been reading on the answers in genesis website and watched Ken Ham debate Bill Nye the science guy.

I'd like to expose some of the points Mr. Ham presents against the attempt to reconcile belief in the bible and Christianity with belief in the Big Bang and the Evolution theories. I'd like to know your thoughts and the possible solutions, if there are any. My interest is to discuss this.

Here come the questions:

Did death always exist? Did suffering always exist? Did evil always exist?

Was there a first sin?

Why even believe in bilions and milions of years for creation, why would God need, or use, that?

Did God meant the world to be as it is today?

So my answers to these are, in order:

No. No. No.

Yes.

He didn't.

No.

What do you answer?
 
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Hoghead1

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Hello,

So I've been reading and studying this debate for a while now. I've been reading on the answers in genesis website and watched Ken Ham debate Bill Nye the science guy.

I'd like to expose some of the points Mr. Ham presents against the attempt to reconcile belief in the bible and Christianity with belief in the Big Bang and the Evolution theories. I'd like to know your thoughts and the possible solutions, if there are any. My personal position is now Young Earth Creationism.

Here come the questions:

Did death always exist? Did suffering always exist? Did evil always exist?

Was there a first sin?

Why even believe in bilions and milions of years for creation, why would God need, or use, that?

Did God meant the world to be as it is today?

So my answers to these are, in order:

No. No. No.

Yes.

He didn't.

No.

What do you answer?

I think that Ham is a total phony sporting phony degrees. I also don't think he is into evolution. I avoid creation-science, because I find it totally bogus science and theology.

I think that God works in and through evolution. I don't see how evolution would be possible without God, as it requires a transcendental source of creative potentials. I also think that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness and mere potentiality into consciousness and self-actualization.

The evolutionary process takes a long time, for two reasons. Certain potentials can be actualized only after certain previous ones have been. I view God as Cosmic Artist luring the world to higher and higher forms of beauty. There are countless form of beauty. God appreciates them all. God has relationships to nature that we don't have. The age of dinosaurs went on for millions of years because God continued to enjoy the beauty and personal enrichment they provided. When the creative options were exhausted here, God lured creation on to something else.

God's plan is to achieve beauty. However, that definitely does not mean that God sat down and planned out in detail the whole of creation. God was not about to waste time doing something like that. It is too "iffy." All creatures have genuine freedom. That means God cannot decide for the m, cannot make their decisions for them. They have to decide for themselves. The future is open-ended, indeterminate for both God and creatures, until we decide. There would have been no point in God sitting down and saying I'm looking forward to Shakespeare appearing and writing plays. God knows that would be too "iffy." A lot can happen between now and then and it has yet to be decided.

Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific culture and reflects very much that culture. It was never intended by God to be an accurate geophysical witness. God did not dictate Scripture word for word. God inspired the writers, but in the end, the text is still the product of their thinking and understanding. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the word of man. The Word of God is revealed through the word of man.
 
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Sapiens

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I think that Ham is a total phony sporting phony degrees. I also don't think he is into evolution. I avoid creation-science, because I find it totally bogus science and theology.

I think that God works in and through evolution. I don't see how evolution would be possible without God, as it requires a transcendental source of creative potentials. I also think that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness and mere potentiality into consciousness and self-actualization.

The evolutionary process takes a long time, for two reasons. Certain potentials can be actualized only after certain previous ones have been. I view God as Cosmic Artist luring the world to higher and higher forms of beauty. There are countless form of beauty. God appreciates them all. God has relationships to nature that we don't have. The age of dinosaurs went on for millions of years because God continued to enjoy the beauty and personal enrichment they provided. When the creative options were exhausted here, God lured creation on to something else.

God's plan is to achieve beauty. However, that definitely does not mean that God sat down and planned out in detail the whole of creation. God was not about to waste time doing something like that. It is too "iffy." All creatures have genuine freedom. That means God cannot decide for the m, cannot make their decisions for them. They have to decide for themselves. The future is open-ended, indeterminate for both God and creatures, until we decide. There would have been no point in God sitting down and saying I'm looking forward to Shakespeare appearing and writing plays. God knows that would be too "iffy." A lot can happen between now and then and it has yet to be decided.

Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific culture and reflects very much that culture. It was never intended by God to be an accurate geophysical witness. God did not dictate Scripture word for word. God inspired the writers, but in the end, the text is still the product of their thinking and understanding. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the word of man. The Word of God is revealed through the word of man.

But doesn't God have the power to create instantly, or in a short amount of time?

Since God is God, do you not think he has an idea of what he's doing and what he's going to do? I sure hope he does! In fact, I know he does.

Mr. Ham makes sure to differentiate between observational science and origin science. These are two different things. One can only speculate on the past based on present evidence and observations. There is an interpretive part involved. In observational science, such as physics, one observes the phenomenon. We cannot observe the past nor the beginning of the universe.

In Mr. Ham's case and in mine, we believe what is written in the book of Genesis. I don't see a need nor a use to value some people's opinion in their attempt to explain the universe without God above what God himself says about his own creation.
 
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Sapiens

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The things a christian cannot deny, whatever one believes about origins, is the fact that there was a first sin and therefore a spiritual death of humankind. Another thing that cannot be avoided, is the fact that there was no suffering in the beginning. Otherwise, this would mean that God intended suffering to exist, which would render Him malevolent. If there was no first sin and the world is as God intended it to be, then why need a saviour? Why promise a new world, heaven?
 
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It's simple:
BB and Evolutionism are naturalistic beliefs / models, creation is super-naturalistic.
So when you believe in God, there is no reason to subscribe to far fetched and problematic attempts to come up with a purposeless, mindless scenario in order to explain our fine tuned universe and the most complex phenomenon known to man: living nature.
 
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Smidlee

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We (including our intelligent designed brain) are God's creation and the Big Bang and Evolution is man's creation.
Big Bang and evolution is man's attempt to use human reasoning to explain away human reasoning. It's like a dog chasing it's own tail ... instead this case it's spelled t-a-l-e.
I simply believe God can do anything in his creation (and more so) that man can do in his creations.
 
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stevevw

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I think that Ham is a total phony sporting phony degrees. I also don't think he is into evolution. I avoid creation-science, because I find it totally bogus science and theology.

I think that God works in and through evolution. I don't see how evolution would be possible without God, as it requires a transcendental source of creative potentials. I also think that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness and mere potentiality into consciousness and self-actualization.

The evolutionary process takes a long time, for two reasons. Certain potentials can be actualized only after certain previous ones have been. I view God as Cosmic Artist luring the world to higher and higher forms of beauty. There are countless form of beauty. God appreciates them all. God has relationships to nature that we don't have. The age of dinosaurs went on for millions of years because God continued to enjoy the beauty and personal enrichment they provided. When the creative options were exhausted here, God lured creation on to something else.

God's plan is to achieve beauty. However, that definitely does not mean that God sat down and planned out in detail the whole of creation. God was not about to waste time doing something like that. It is too "iffy." All creatures have genuine freedom. That means God cannot decide for the m, cannot make their decisions for them. They have to decide for themselves. The future is open-ended, indeterminate for both God and creatures, until we decide. There would have been no point in God sitting down and saying I'm looking forward to Shakespeare appearing and writing plays. God knows that would be too "iffy." A lot can happen between now and then and it has yet to be decided.

Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific culture and reflects very much that culture. It was never intended by God to be an accurate geophysical witness. God did not dictate Scripture word for word. God inspired the writers, but in the end, the text is still the product of their thinking and understanding. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is the word of man. The Word of God is revealed through the word of man.
Some of the problems I find with this type of belief is for example you say when all the creative options are exhausted God lures creation on to something else. yet evolution states that it does the work of finding the next option through natural selection. If you are injecting God into stages here and there then you are taking away from the process of evolution being self supporting and able to continue to produce viable life. Either evolution can work on its own or it cant. If you take away those stages then you undermine the process of evolution as a whole. The other point is what about what Jesus states in the new testament about God and creation. When you start playing around with one part of the bible it affects the other. The end result can be an undermining of the entire bible. Once you start that then you are more or less undermining belief altogether.

I agree that evolution plays a part in life but I am not sure it is like Darwinian evolution states. Maybe there was certain creatures created and from these was great variation through an ability to draw on genetic material through each other and the environment. God made it that way as He knew that things needed to be flexible to allow life to adapt and survive. Scientists are finding that there is a great capacity for HGT and that the environment can act as a conduit to also transfer genetic material.
 
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mark kennedy

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So I've been reading and studying this debate for a while now. I've been reading on the answers in genesis website and watched Ken Ham debate Bill Nye the science guy.

Couldn't sit through the meandering nature of that debate but let's see what you have here.

I'd like to expose some of the points Mr. Ham presents against the attempt to reconcile belief in the bible and Christianity with belief in the Big Bang and the Evolution theories. I'd like to know your thoughts and the possible solutions, if there are any. My interest is to discuss this.

I believe in the Big Bang, God spoke and BANG! There it was. The Big Bang is a model based on the expansion of the universe. Hubble was the astronomer who demonstrated that, basically, everything is moving away from everything else. Projecting backwards the Big Bang Theory, it was actually developed by a Jesuit Georges Lemaître.

Lemaître also proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe, which he called his "hypothesis of the primeval atom" or the "Cosmic Egg" (Georges Lemaître)
Everyone loved the Big Bang theory including Einstein and the Pope:

At a conference in the 1930s, where Lemaître presented his theory, Einstein reportedly remarked, "This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation to which I have ever listened."

As astonishing as Lemaître's idea was, perhaps equally surprising to us now was the reaction of the church. Lemaître was not jailed by the Pope like Galileo. He was not excommunicated the way Johannes Keppler was by the Lutheran Church. Quite the opposite. In the early 1950s, Pope Pius XII not only declared that the big bang and the Catholic concept of creation were compatible; he embraced Lemaître's idea as scientific validation for the existence of God and of Catholicism. (Big Bang Theory: A Roman Catholic Creation)
For the reaction of Lemaître to the popes declaration see the article quoted above.

Here come the questions:

Did death always exist? Did suffering always exist? Did evil always exist?

Well, just as darkness is the absence of light death is the end of life. Before life on this planet I really don't know if there was anything like death but it stands to reason that if life could end then we would call that death. Evil had already been conceived, as far as I can tell, in the mind of Lucifer.

The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Rev. 12:9)
Apparently the origin and demise of evil in the heart of Satan is an important prophetic principle:

All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!' Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?' (Isa. 38:10-17)
In this enigmatic prophecy against the king of Tyre many Christian scholars see an indictment against Satan, the power behind the throne so to speak:

"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire,emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. (Eze. 14: 12-15)
Glorified and an Archangel Satan was created perfectly wise, beautiful and righteous. We don't know a lot about how this came about and certainly not when but it was before Eden and Satan and his angles are still active until the return of Christ.
Was there a first sin?

According to Paul:

Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).

The book of Romans tells us that God's invisible attributes and eternal nature have been clearly seen but we exchanged the truth of God for a lie (Rom 1:21,22). As a result the Law of Moses and the law of our own conscience bears witness against us, sometimes accusing, sometimes defending (Rom 2:15). We all sinned but now the righteousness of God has been revealed to be by faith through Christ (Rom 3:21). Abraham became the father of many nations by faith and the supernatural work of God (Rom 4:17). Through one man sin entered the world and through one man righteousness was revealed (Rom 5:12). It looks something like this in Romans by chapter:

Ch. 1: Exchanging the truth of God for a lie, the creature for the Creator.
Ch. 2: Both the Law and our conscience make our sin evident and obvious.
Ch. 3: All sinned, but now the righteousness of God is revealed in Christ.
Ch. 4: Abraham's lineage produced by a promise and a miracle through faith.
Ch. 5: Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin.
Ch. 6: Just as Christ was raised from the dead we walk in newness of life.
Ch. 7: The law could not save but instead empowered sin to convict.
Ch. 8: Freed from the law of sin and death (Adamic nature) we're saved​

The Scriptures offer an explanation for man's fallen nature, how we inherited it exactly is not important but when Adam and Eve sinned we did not fast. This is affirmed in the New Testament in no uncertain terms by Luke in his genealogy, in Paul's exposition of the Gospel in Romans and even Jesus called the marriage of Adam and Eve 'the beginning'.

Why even believe in bilions and milions of years for creation, why would God need, or use, that?

All we really know about the creation of the universe is that it was, 'In the Beginning. The phrase, 'heaven and the earth', is a Hebrew expression meaning the universe. All we really get from this passage is that the cosmos and earth were created, 'in the beginning'. The perspective of creation week is from the surface of the earth, starting with the Spirit of God hovering over the deep (Gen. 1:2). Creation happened in six days, the word for 'created' is ('bara' H1254) a very precise term used only of God:

Create ‘bara’ (H1254) - 'This verb has profound thological significance, since it has only God as it’s subject. Only God can create in the sense implied by bara. The verb expresses the idea of creation out of nothing...(Vines Expository Dictionary)​

It is used once to describe the creation of the universe (Gen 1:1), then again to describe the creation of life (Gen 1:21). Finally, in the closing verses, it is used three times for the creation of Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:27). The universe and the earth may well have been here millions or billions of years but the creation of life took just six days.

Did God meant the world to be as it is today?

It was never what God wanted for the earth to be cursed, that was the result of sin.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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stevevw

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I find it hard to believe that the big bang only happened some 6,000 years ago according to some. If the big bang happened then by nature it has to be more then 6,000 years old because what happened directly after the big bang which would have been super hot would take more then 6,000 years to get to the state the earth is in now. We then have to start discarding the science and yet want to include the science for the idea of the big bang. Its like having an each way bet. If creation happened in 6 literal days from the big bang to the creation of man and women then how can the big bang be included in the story of creation.

If you accept the big bang then you would have to accept the processes for how matter was dispersed throughout space and the cooling of planets , the creation of stars and galaxies all of which take more then 6,000 years. It is said that the genealogy between Christ and Adam is 6,000 years. So is this just when humans were created, when humans became ensouled as someone has said or the sixth day after the beginning of the creation of everything ie (the big bang) which would make existence around 6,000 years ago.
 
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mark kennedy

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I find it hard to believe that the big bang only happened some 6,000 years ago according to some. If the big bang happened then by nature it has to be more then 6,000 years old because what happened directly after the big bang which would have been super hot would take more then 6,000 years to get to the state the earth is in now. We then have to start discarding the science and yet want to include the science for the idea of the big bang. Its like having an each way bet. If creation happened in 6 literal days from the big bang to the creation of man and women then how can the big bang be included in the story of creation.

First of all the creation of the universe, the 'heavens and the earth' was in the beginning. It's a stand alone account, most expositors identify it as one of ten. The account of creation week is second. The first could have happened billions of years ago, it could have happened thousands to when the Big Bang actually happened is irrelevant to the doctrine of creation.

If you accept the big bang then you would have to accept the processes for how matter was dispersed throughout space and the cooling of planets , the creation of stars and galaxies all of which take more then 6,000 years. It is said that the genealogy between Christ and Adam is 6,000 years. So is this just when humans were created, when humans became ensouled as someone has said or the sixth day after the beginning of the creation of everything ie (the big bang) which would make existence around 6,000 years ago.

You must have missed the part where I said:

All we really know about the creation of the universe is that it was, 'In the Beginning. The phrase, 'heaven and the earth', is a Hebrew expression meaning the universe. All we really get from this passage is that the cosmos and earth were created, 'in the beginning'.​

You are importing way too much into the text, the original creation and the creation week, including the creation of man are separate events. How far they are separated time wise is utterly irrelevant. Creation week, I should add, was six literal days.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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SkyWriting

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So I've been reading and studying this debate for a while now. I've been reading on the answers in genesis website and watched Ken Ham debate Bill Nye the science guy.

He's quite convincing....but not for too long.
Eventually his motivations get in the way
of thought.
 
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stevevw

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First of all the creation of the universe, the 'heavens and the earth' was in the beginning. It's a stand alone account, most expositors identify it as one of ten. The account of creation week is second. The first could have happened billions of years ago, it could have happened thousands to when the Big Bang actually happened is irrelevant to the doctrine of creation.



You must have missed the part where I said:

All we really know about the creation of the universe is that it was, 'In the Beginning. The phrase, 'heaven and the earth', is a Hebrew expression meaning the universe. All we really get from this passage is that the cosmos and earth were created, 'in the beginning'.​

You are importing way too much into the text, the original creation and the creation week, including the creation of man are separate events. How far they are separated time wise is utterly irrelevant. Creation week, I should add, was six literal days.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
Fair enough and I think we cant make the events a scientific analysis as people could bring up many irregularities such as when God separated the light from the darkness to make night and day. The universe would have already had light from the big bang and rocky planets would have already had varying degrees of light and dark. So its not so much about the mechanisms for how light and dark worked or came about according to science but for God being the master of time itself and the synchronization of the universe. After that point at least as far as earth was concerned was the seasons and the the beginning of days.
 
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Revealing Times

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But doesn't God have the power to create instantly, or in a short amount of time ? Since God is God, do you not think he has an idea of what he's doing and what he's going to do? I sure hope he does! In fact, I know he does.

I don't get your point. God lives in the past, future and present all at once, so what God created 13.7 billion years ago, became today for him in an instant. It is not like he had to wait per se.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it hard to believe that the big bang only happened some 6,000 years ago according to some. If the big bang happened then by nature it has to be more then 6,000 years old because what happened directly after the big bang which would have been super hot would take more then 6,000 years to get to the state the earth is in now. We then have to start discarding the science and yet want to include the science for the idea of the big bang. Its like having an each way bet. If creation happened in 6 literal days from the big bang to the creation of man and women then how can the big bang be included in the story of creation.

If you accept the big bang then you would have to accept the processes for how matter was dispersed throughout space and the cooling of planets , the creation of stars and galaxies all of which take more then 6,000 years. It is said that the genealogy between Christ and Adam is 6,000 years. So is this just when humans were created, when humans became ensouled as someone has said or the sixth day after the beginning of the creation of everything ie (the big bang) which would make existence around 6,000 years ago.

The Big Bang did happen, but it happened 13.7 some odd billion years ago. Their problems is in understanding that a day (yom) in Hebrew can also mean a period of time, that has an evening and morning. Yom 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year.

Inflation lasted 360,000 years followed by 400 Million years of Darkness (there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep) then at the 400 million year mark, suns started to come into being, and of course they were still being created when our Sun and Earth came into existence 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (400 million years of Darkness) and the Morning, (9 Billion years of Stars) were the first day. Then Earth and the Sun was the Second day, etc. etc. The story is in perfect order, because the 5th day (500 million yeas to 250 million BC.) was the Sea Animals which came before the Land animals on the 6th day. (250 Million years BC to 6000 BC) and then Man was created IN GODS IMAGE 6000 years ago. There might have been animals created like men before this time, but they did not have the imparted Spirit of God that made us like unto Him.

Now we are living in the Seventh Day.
 
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stevevw

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I don't get your point. God lives in the past, future and present all at once, so what God created 13.7 billion years ago, became today for him in an instant. It is not like he had to wait per se.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Big Bang did happen, but it happened 13.7 some odd billion years ago. Their problems is in understanding that a day (yom) in Hebrew can also mean a period of time, that has an evening and morning. Yom 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year.

Inflation lasted 360,000 years followed by 400 Million years of Darkness (there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep) then at the 400 million year mark, suns started to come into being, and of course they were still being created when our Sun and Earth came into existence 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (400 million years of Darkness) and the Morning, (9 Billion years of Stars) were the first day. Then Earth and the Sun was the Second day, etc. etc. The story is in perfect order, because the 5th day (500 million yeas to 250 million BC.) was the Sea Animals which came before the Land animals on the 6th day. (250 Million years BC to 6000 BC) and then Man was created IN GODS IMAGE 6000 years ago. There might have been animals created like men before this time, but they did not have the imparted Spirit of God that made us like unto Him.

Now we are living in the Seventh Day.
Thats interesting, I will have to think about that for a while as I have never heard of this version of Genesis. But juts one question what is the science behind the darkness period. As far as I would understand it is that after the big bang which would have been hot things began to cool but they never cooled to the point of there being no light in the universe.
 
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Thats interesting, I will have to think about that for a while as I have never heard of this version of Genesis. But juts one question what is the science behind the darkness period. As far as I would understand it is that after the big bang which would have been hot things began to cool but they never cooled to the point of there being no light in the universe.

Believe me, I study the science, then the Bible or vice versa, I kick things around in forums, and this came to me about six months ago when I was studying Quantum Fluctuations. Looking at the WMAP/NASA Image below, that was brought about by using microwaves to map the entire existence of the Universe, we see that Q.F.'s were followed by a brief, 400,000 year glow, then there was 400 Million years of Dark Ages, followed by the first Stars coming into existence at 400 million years.

Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe
The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is a NASA Explorer mission that launched June 2001 to make fundamental measurements of cosmology -- the study of the properties of our universe as a whole. WMAP has been stunningly successful, producing our new Standard Model of Cosmology. WMAP's data stream has ended. Full analysis of the data is now complete. Publications have been submitted as of 12/20/2012.

WMAP TEAM RECEIVES THE GRUBER COSMOLOGY PRIZE

universe.jpg



The reason I was studying Quantum Fluctuations is I found out that Scientists were stating that what caused the Big Bang was Q.F.'s, so as long as you had Q.F.'s or the Laws of Nature/A Set of Forces, something could come from nothing. But there is a catch. And I bet not one scientist sees it !! So Science has discovered you can create the Universe from nothing, providing we have the Forces/Laws of Nature (Q.F.) and these Laws of Nature aren't Physical, but they act on the physical. So if they Create the universe, that means they Predate the universe. WOW, do you see it coming ?

Quantum Fluctuations (Set of forces/Laws of nature, is a must)
1) Not Physical
2) Acts on the Physical
3) Created the Physical from Nothing
4) Predates the Universe

What does that sound like to you ? The Biblical God !!

1. God is a Spirit He is not a Physical being ( God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in like manner )
2. God said, In the Beginning ( So the Physical had a beginning )
3. God created all matter from nothing ( God created the Heaven and the Earth )
4. God is Eternal, the bible says so in many places.
 
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stevevw

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Believe me, I study the science, then the Bible or vice versa, I kick things around in forums, and this came to me about six months ago when I was studying Quantum Fluctuations. Looking at the WMAP/NASA Image below, that was brought about by using microwaves to map the entire existence of the Universe, we see that Q.F.'s were followed by a brief, 400,000 year glow, then there was 400 Million years of Dark Ages, followed by the first Stars coming into existence at 400 million years.

The reason I was studying Quantum Fluctuations is I found out that Scientists were stating that what caused the Big Bang was Q.F.'s, so as long as you had Q.F.'s or the Laws of Nature/A Set of Forces, something could come from nothing. But there is a catch. And I bet not one scientist sees it !! So Science has discovered you can create the Universe from nothing, providing we have the Forces/Laws of Nature (Q.F.) and these Laws of Nature aren't Physical, but they act on the physical. So if they Create the universe, that means they Predate the universe. WOW, do you see it coming ?

Quantum Fluctuations (Set of forces/Laws of nature, is a must)
1) Not Physical
2) Acts on the Physical
3) Created the Physical from Nothing
4) Predates the Universe

What does that sound like to you ? The Biblical God !!

1. God is a Spirit He is not a Physical being ( God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in like manner )
2. God said, In the Beginning ( So the Physical had a beginning )
3. God created all matter from nothing ( God created the Heaven and the Earth )
4. God is Eternal, the bible says so in many places.
That sounds good and I like the way you are trying to fit the science into the creation story. But there is one issue that immediately stands out. The genesis story says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So it seems the darkness you talk about was in the beginning and the earth could not have been formed then if its only a bit over 4 billion years old. That darkness happened around 400 million years after the QF so that would mean the earth is around 13 billion years old. As the next verse 3 says, And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. The earth was in darkness and then the light came upon it. Is that the same darkness and light you talk about at the beginning of the big bang.

I do like the comparison with Quantum physics and I have been thinking along these lines. Some scientists IE Lawrence Krauss especially like to use the nothing is really something with QF to explain how the universe came from nothing. So it can also play into a world view of things though when it comes down to it that nothing they say is nothing is really something. I think I read somewhere that QF which can create virtual particles and other factors involved mean that there was something involved in creating the big bang before it happened.

I tend to think that God being the creator was not going to create things without a physical cause so he spoke into existence the first possible elements that could create the physical world. In other words the first thing that happens with the physical world from absolutely nothing which God could only do. But I like your comparison of how quantum physics works and how it compares to God. AS science looks more into the physical world they are seeing that there is something that is not fitting into the parameters of how they have measured the material world.

I believe this will continue to show contradictions and unusual properties that they will never be able to comprehend. But of course the scientists will come up with their own ideas of whats happening like multiverses, hologram worlds and other dimensions that we can never completely prove to explain what they see. The far fetched ideas they come up with are beyond our material world and are really no different to how God is not part of our material world. But they would rather come up with any idea which verges on the supernatural as long as its not God
 
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Revealing Times

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That sounds good and I like the way you are trying to fit the science into the creation story. But there is one issue that immediately stands out. The genesis story says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Lets go step by step. In the Beginning God created everything, because He spoke it into being, but notice, the Earth was without form, and void (completely empty space) The Matter was not yet in its future destination, but in the Beginning God spoke it into being, in time it would come to pass, because of His order, in the Beginning. So in the Beginning, God created everything, even stars that are forming today. But we know God rested after He created man, so the Stars being created now, was created also, in the Beginning.

So God spoke the Heavens and the Earth into Existence, and Darkness was on the face of the deep, just like the WMAP map shows, then Light came into being, the "Waters" is not the waters of earth, did you know there is no such thing as light ? I found that out recently reading a science journal, somewhere, it is only Reflection. Well water then Reflects the Light, it takes water for light to exist, even though it really doesn't, yes, weird.

So it seems the darkness you talk about was in the beginning and the earth could not have been formed then if its only a bit over 4 billion years old. That darkness happened around 400 million years after the QF so that would mean the earth is around 13 billion years old. As the next verse 3 says, And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. The earth was in darkness and then the light came upon it. Is that the same darkness and light you talk about at the beginning of the big bang.

That is the common mistake people make, let there be light was the Stars coming into existence at the 400 Million year mark, it has nothing to do with the Earth, we have to use common sense and we know the earth and Sun is only 4.5 Billion years old. The Earth was VOID and WITHOUT FORM, it was not in existence yet. It had just been ordered by God.

God did separate the Light from the Darkness, go look at the WMAP Map again, notice the gulf of Darkness then the Stars ? God is revealing to us how, EXACTLY HOW, the Universe was created. And the Evening (400 Million years of Darkness) and the Morning (Stars being created continually thereafter) was the First Day. That is the mistake everyone makes, the Earth FORMED LATER.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

God then dealt with Atmosphere/Earth, on the Second day and Third day......God divided the waters in the air/Heavens/Firmament from the waters on Earth. Below and Above. Second day. And God called the Dry Land Earth. Third Day.

God Bless, I have a very long 7 Day Creation account on the "Is God a Liar thread", somewhere like maybe the 10th to the 14th page.
 
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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Lets go step by step. In the Beginning God created everything, because He spoke it into being, but notice, the Earth was without form, and void (completely empty space) The Matter was not yet in its future destination, but in the Beginning God spoke it into being, in time it would come to pass, because of His order, in the Beginning. So in the Beginning, God created everything, even stars that are forming today. But we know God rested after He created man, so the Stars being created now, was created also, in the Beginning.

So God spoke the Heavens and the Earth into Existence, and Darkness was on the face of the deep, just like the WMAP map shows, then Light came into being, the "Waters" is not the waters of earth, did you know there is no such thing as light ? I found that out recently reading a science journal, somewhere, it is only Reflection. Well water then Reflects the Light, it takes water for light to exist, even though it really doesn't, yes, weird.



That is the common mistake people make, let there be light was the Stars coming into existence at the 400 Million year mark, it has nothing to do with the Earth, we have to use common sense and we know the earth and Sun is only 4.5 Billion years old. The Earth was VOID and WITHOUT FORM, it was not in existence yet. It had just been ordered by God.

God did separate the Light from the Darkness, go look at the WMAP Map again, notice the gulf of Darkness then the Stars ? God is revealing to us how, EXACTLY HOW, the Universe was created. And the Evening (400 Million years of Darkness) and the Morning (Stars being created continually thereafter) was the First Day. That is the mistake everyone makes, the Earth FORMED LATER.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

God then dealt with Atmosphere/Earth, on the Second day and Third day......God divided the waters in the air/Heavens/Firmament from the waters on Earth. Below and Above. Second day. And God called the Dry Land Earth. Third Day.

God Bless, I have a very long 7 Day Creation account on the "Is God a Liar thread", somewhere like maybe the 10th to the 14th page.
OK thats good I will check your post out. It is interesting what you say and I can see how it all fits. There are some bible verses that relate to God planning for the earth in His creation before the big bang and knew exactly what the earth was intended for.
Hebrews 1:10
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Psalm 102:25 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

So God created everything from His word, His wisdom and His hands. He knew all that would happen and created existence so that the earth would be the pinnacle of all he made. He set a chain of events that at first came from His word which is beyond the physical world but then moved towards the laws that govern the material world which would end up placing the earth it the right position to sustain life. Of course to God this all may have happened in a short time or an instant.

Isaiah 45:18 fits in with this idea as well.
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.

I like this next verse as it gives us a perspective of mortal man looking at Gods creation and trying to understand how His creation works. Scientists try to explain everything according to their world view but for all we know the forces that cause everything in the universe to stay in place and exist are something beyond our understand.
Job 26.7
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.
 
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Revealing Times

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OK thats good I will check your post out. It is interesting what you say and I can see how it all fits. There are some bible verses that relate to God planning for the earth in His creation before the big bang and knew exactly what the earth was intended for.
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

I told you wrong, it was on like the 37 page, so I will just C&P it. Nice post by the way. You get it, Most think I have lost it. LOL.

"yom" is a period of time, not always a day. I have done an in depth study, of science and Religion, then I tried to merge the two together using logic. For starters, God confused us at Babel, so He doesn't necessarily want us to know all that He knows. If the Universe is 13.7 billion years old and the Earth only 4.5 billion years old, why would anyone assume the First Day was 24 Hours ? My theory is below, I am not stating it is a fact, just my deductive reasoning.

God Created the Universe in His own time frame. (There is no time in Gods realm.) Looking to the WMAP, (NASA Program) the way the Universe is Mapped by the Microwaves, then reading the Creation Story, it all fits. Anyone that thinks God was speaking of Earth Rotations (Days) seems off kilter, the Earth was not even around until the Universe was 9.2 billion years old !!

God has no time in His Realm. Causation came about with the Creation of our universe. My "TIME THEORY" is based on study not just guess work. Since the Universe was created, and Earth was Formed 9.2 billion years latter, then the first day had to be 9.2 billion years Old.................................BECAUSE

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and Darkness was on he face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

{{ Notice, the Earth was void and without form, that is because God only Spoke it into Creation, it actuality it took 9.2 Billion years to form. Notice it says there was darkness on the face of the deep ? Well the WMAP/NASA Project, which has mapped out the Universe with Microwaves, says there was darkness on the face of the deep. (Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 380,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce. }}

{{ The first stars appear..........Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the Big Bang. SO............When the Bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! }}

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. {{ The First day was Darkness and Light. People have often confused this, but God is saying there was Darkness, then Light (Stars formed at 400 million years).......That was the first day. It lasted 9.2 Billion years, give or take a few million years....LOL. }}

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. {{ How does a firmament (Heaven/Air) divide the waters from the waters ? Well, God placed waters on the Earth, and the Sky has water in the Air, that's why it Rains !! This was the Second Day, so it couldn't have Started any sooner than 4.5 Billion years ago. And the Grasses and Herbs began to appear at about 900 Million years B.C. according to my study of Science books, so the Second Day lasted from 4.5 Billion years B.C. until about 900 Million years B.C. And as God stated, that was the 2ND DAY. }}

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

{{ So, since the Grasses and herb yielding fruits came about around 900 Million Years B.C. to 800 Million years B.C. that becomes the 3RD DAY. }}

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light (SUN) to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the (MOON) night: he made the stars also. ( Which were, are and will still be created in the future, since it mentions the Stars, we know the LESSER LIGHT is the Moon, The Moon has more "Light" than all the stars combined in reality ) 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

{Seems God set the Seasons the Axis created the perfect Seasons, and that was the fourth day. Probably happened at about the same time as the 3rd day, fairly close imho. And the Sun, Moon and Stars started lighting the Earth over time when their light reached the Earth.}

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

{{ Through a study of Science books and such it is determined that the Sea Creatures have been around much longer than the Land Creatures, and that jibes with Gods account here..............About 500 Million years ago the Sea Creatures and fowl came along, and that was the 5TH DAY. It lasted until about 250 million years B.C. }}

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

{{{ Through studying Science again the land animals/creatures started showing up around 250 million years ago. So this was the 6TH day........From 250 million years B.C. until 6000 years B.C. when God created man and rested from His creation. }}}

We are now in Gods day of rest or the 7TH DAY............

This actually all fits together in Gods timeline. It can not be perfect by the numbers of course, but it is an approximation that makes more sense than an earth that is only 6000 years old. Or in believing a universe that magically appeared from nothing.

Many seem to think that man is much older than 6000 years old, I ask, why is it nor recorded in history ? Secondly, Man became man when God imparted him with a Soul, and put His Spirit in us. Any Animal created before this impartation that made us into human beings (or made us in the image of God) , was not a Human Being as we are known today. They would just be another animal, nothing more, nothing less.


Again, this is only my theory from studying both science and the bible.
 
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