New Catholic Is Direct Descendant of Canonized Catholic Martyr
- By RileyG
- One Bread, One Body - Catholic
- 4 Replies
That’s pretty awesome!
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Today's winner.Just because God is capable of doing anything doesn't mean He should do it.
Because " eternal hell " is the foundation that most of western Christianity is founded on its the pillar that they have built their whole system of belief on, so any part of scripture that they can bolster up their foundation must be held to. The greater the lie the more sand you need to hold your pillar up, but if built on the rock of Jesus , the savior of the world, that rock stands alone and needs nothing to hold itself up.In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)
22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)
The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?
1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:
If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).
Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:
Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance
This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)
In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).
From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)
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I think I just understood it much better after rereading it and appreciating more closely the examples you cited regarding politics...I am, on the whole, suspicious and skeptical of the idea of "personal revelation". Not that it is impossible, per se, but because I've seen the ways in which such "revelation" has been used in various ways to sow harm and bring spiritual strife and hurt faith.
Here's the chief question I want to pose to you in regard to this: Based on how you encounter God in Scripture, in Christ, does it seem more likely that God would want you to feel dirty for your vocation of broadcasting wherein you may serve and minister in the unique and particular ways only one with that vocation could; or is it more likely that God calls you, where you are, as a disciple and follower of Jesus to live in and through your vocation to serve, minister, to be salt and light, to find those particular ways in which through your relationships with others you can love them, serve them, and be a beacon of the Gospel?
Which of these is like Jesus? Which of these is biblical?
I would encourage you to work through the questions above. Do you think God, as He reveals Himself in Christ and in Scripture, is more interested in giving you a personal revelation that tells you to retreat from opportunities of ministry and vocation; or in calling you to serve where you are?
Does God want the shoe-cobbler to stop making shoes because shoes are "worldly"? Or does God want the shoe-cobbler to provide shoes for those who need shoes, because your neighbor and your neighbor's needs matter to God?
Worldliness is an often misunderstood thing today. Worldliness isn't about concern and care for this world, i.e. with what happens here, with the people here, or with enjoying music, or loving art, or taking photographs of the sunset. Worldliness is a way of affection that is orientated toward values of temporal, worldly power.
Scripture says two things: God so loved the world and one cannot love the world. These are not contradictions--these are two very different ways the word "world" means. The "world" in the sense of God's good creation, and human beings, etc is not evil and we are called to reflect God's own love through our lives by following Jesus. But the term "world" also can be used to describe the present fallen situation, the structures of power dominated by sin and death.
Here's an example:
It is not wrong to want to get involved in the local politics of your town or community because you want to be involved in serving others and providing for the general welfare of your community. It is a good thing to get involved, if such is your calling, to exercise your Christian life in a way that causes your neighbor to prosper, that puts food on tables, that addresses the harm of homelessness and seek solutions that benefit those in need--housing the homeless, food for the hungry, working toward just and fair laws that promote the welfare of others, especially the least of these. This is a good and noble vocation.
It is wrong to want to get involved in the local politics of your town or community because you want power, because you want to sit at the top, lord it over others, to accumulate wealth for yourself at the expense of the poor. To deprive the poor, the hungry, and the homeless of justice and of their material needs.
The former is an example of good Christian vocation. The latter is an example of wicked worldliness.
So when you approach your own hobbies, or job, your vocation--the question is how you live in that sphere of life.
Also, and this is important too, it is not evil to enjoy life. It is not evil to enjoy music or art. It is not evil to enjoy coming together with friends and family to have a meal together, to enjoy the food, the drink, and the fellowship together. It is not evil to take a vacation and go camping and enjoy the sights, smells, and sounds of God's good creation. It is not evil to play a game of cards, or a game of checkers, or a game on a computer either with others, by yourself, and as a physical or emotional respite.
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Rest, respite, and the opportunities to laugh and live, especially with other people, is a good and wonderful thing.
-CryptoLutheran
Yeah, they said that on a YouTube video about Pilate. I can't remember which video it was.I remember reading somewhere that after Pilate was recalled from Judea, he was eventually sent to the far reaches of Gaul, which, given Pilate's upper-class background and the state of the region at the time, was probably about like being stationed in Greenland: the middle of nowhere.
It is about him. Judges are not asking for the rest of those sent to the prison, just him. He's also an example of how lenient the Biden administration was on human trafficking, he's caught with all of those guys in a car, and no luggage for workers on a three day trip was a very strong signal they were being trafficked. Also that they all said there address was his address. No valid drivers license, almost for sure they were not all wearing seat belts because there are not that many in a typical car, and the Biden administration says let him go. This guy has what, met with 17 judges? That's not going to be allowed to happen for 20 million people.
Excellent point.Maybe you answered this and I missed it, but isn't John using the word Logos in a way that was different from others? I.e. He is equating Logos with God.
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AmenJesus did not come to destroy the law. But rather, Jesus came to fulfil the law. As written in Matthew 5:17.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
What is the law that Jesus came to fulfil? The law that states that all sinners must die and perish. As written in Ezekiel 18:20 and Romans 6:23.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What does it mean to destroy the law? For the law to be destroyed, God has to cancel the law in Ezekiel 18:20 and Romans 6:23, allow sinners to go unpunished (without receiving the wages of sin) and let unjustified sinners enter Heaven.
What does it mean for Jesus to fulfil the law? Jesus has to take all our sins (the sins of the entire world for every generations so that salvation is offered to everyone who accepts Jesus as their saviouras written in 2 Corinthians 5:21 and 1 John 2:2) and die with our sins on our behalf (Full payment can only be fulfilled with death, as written in Hebrews 9:22).
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 John 2:2 He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
How do we know that all our sins have been remove by Jesus' death?
If Jesus does not have enough capital to pay for our sins, then he still be in debt and will still be carrying our wages (The wages of sin is death). If Jesus is still carrying out wages, he will still remain dead. But Jesus DID NOT stay dead. Jesus died, was buried and resurrected on the third day. As written in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
Not only did Jesus rose from the grave, Jesus even sat on the right hand of God. If Jesus is unable to pay for all our sins, he will not be able to even enter Heaven or be in God's presence.
Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins (death on the cross with all our sins), he sat down at the right hand of God
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Jesus paid for our wage of sin which is death. Through death Jesus destroyed death. Having cleared of all our sins, we direct access to God in our time of need.
Ephesians 2:18 For through him (Jesus) we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.