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Israel and the New Covenant.

So how do you know what we should / shouldn't do? There HAS to be rules in place, otherwise chaos would ensue and just claiming you have trust in God (which is what the definition of faith is), doesn't in itself tell you anything else. There has to be something to write on our hearts and if its not God's moral law, which he spelled out in exodus, then what is it?

You don't flesh out your thoughts, you just rapid fire them with no verses attached and make multiple replies and honestly, its getting a little frustrating to keep track. Take a step back and please just make a post spelling out your stance with bible verses.
Jesus Christ is the teacher for all, it is the Spirit.



John 14:2 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
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Morality without Absolute Morality

And God knows, by the way, if a certain action will have a bad result; it may not be obvious, but God knows.
So how do you know?
God is able to personally communicate with us. And His communication matches with all that He knows.

So, for one thing, it is not going to work to try to make some absolute written moral code. We need how God personally in us communicates and guides us.

How do we know it is really God? :) At every moment, we depend on Him to make sure He is really the One guiding and communicating.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

And we can check with His written word to evaluate if He is really the One communicating and guiding. However, of course, there are things not explicitly dealt with in the Bible, but we trust God about this, that He will make sure. And with experience we know the difference between God and what is not God. One scripture which can help with this is > Colossians 3:15 >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

We are commanded to be ruled by God Himself in us, by means of His own peace ruling us. In God's peace we are sharing with Him in His own harmony with almighty immunity against cruel and vain feelings and drives and emotions. Plus, in this peace we share with God in His creativity for how to love any person, at all. Because God is all-loving. So, His peace will take care of us in His all-loving way, not merely making us feel good and safe, for our own selves.

So, included in the covenant of having peace with God who is all-loving is how we are growing in being all-loving in how we live and love. So, one way we can tell something is not God is if it isolates us and has us only or mainly concerned about our own selves and maybe about certain other people we like and hope to use > Jesus deals with this >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, we may not always be perfectly sure if God is communicating and guiding, but we can rather easily identify what is not God. And trust Him to make sure; after all, we are not God; so . . . how can we know unless He does His miracle of having us know, which He can >

Jesus does say His sheep hear Him. John chapter 10. This is a miracle, to hear and know Jesus. We trust Jesus to do this with us. And Jesus guarantees this, for whoever is really His sheep > John chapter 10.

Also, God gives us His example, in us >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

If I have really experienced God's own love with His quality and goodness and kind and tender compassion and personal sharing . . . this is my example of how to be in my relating with any and all people. So, this is an absolute moral standard. No law of itself can get humans to do this; we need to be with God in union with us so we can experience Him and this example.

And I think of this > the Bible is our absolute written moral standard. Every scripture can ***somehow*** help us to know how to love and how to live morally.
Using the previous example, sending a child to her room is quite acceptable. But for how long? How do you know when it becomes morally unacceptable?
Well . . . my offering on this is we can be personally guided by God so we do what is right; and He has us doing better than humanly understandable rules ever could tell us to do; because He is God so better than we are, able to have us doing better, even by the moment, than we could imagine, moments before > with such discovering, indeed, in this.

My opinion as one who has never brought up children is > first, spend some time with the child before sending the child to the child's room. Discuss how we are going to make good use of the "time out". One person said his children pray and get right with God, so they can then return from the room; possibly, the child is trusted to know when the child is ready to rejoin the family relating. Of course, we need to have a good family relating atmosphere, as the child's good example, so that when the child becomes wrong, however, the child can see that the child is breaking away from loving as family; and so the child knows what to prepare to return to, and do not come back until you are ready, please. Another person would communicate and negotiate through the closed door, never leaving the troubled child alone.

A pastor I knew would say, "Don't ever have an attitude like that." And that would be it. Attack the cause of what some bad behaving might be. And then the child has a tool, to catch the child's self right when trouble starts in the child. This helps me, anyway > there are things clearly not loving and not in peace, that can get started in me; and already I know I am wrong; and I can trust God to clear that out and restore me to pleasant and soul-resting . . . and all-loving . . . love.

So . . . may be we should not ask what quantity of time is moral, but what quality of atmosphere of family caring and sharing should be the standard. And we grow in this; we discover this, best of all with God.

For moral absolutes for caring and sharing as a family, I would say, God has humility, kindness, patience, creativity so we don't argue or complain, and good example is very important so the child can know readily when the child is going against us by going against our good example, and there is forgiveness but evaluating when and how and why to trust.
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The Son of Man and the Throne Room

Mark 14:25 I tell you the truth, I will not again drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Jesus drank the fruit of the vine on the cross. The kingdom of God began with the ratification of Jesus' new covenant sacrificial death on the cross.
I don't believe Jesus drank wine on the cross. I believe Jesus was speaking, in Mark 14.25, of the Millennial Kingdom when he will come back to earth.
Luke 17:20-21 Having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, saying, “The kingdom of God
will not come with observation.
21 Nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”


Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. We cannot see it with our bodily eyes.
The passage in Luke 17 is speaking of the relationship of God's Kingdom to Israel in Jesus' time, and of how it is "coming." Clearly, from Jesus' perspective, the Kingdom remained in heaven and had not yet come. That's why he taught his disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come." It was not yet here.

So he was informing his disciples that the Kingdom was coming in an unusual way, being recognized in preliminary form by people with "eyes to see." They could see in Jesus the Messiah of that future Kingdom. They could recognize the righteousness of that future Kingdom. But the Kingdom, though coming in an obscure way, had not yet come!
Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus drinks the fruit of the vine immediately before he dies. This vinegar that he drank was made from sour grapes, which are the fruit of the grapevine.


John 19:29-30 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jesus received the vinegar, but it was a mockery. The Romans were not giving Jesus wine to drink. This is not the "fruit of the vine" in which he would celebrate the Kingdom in the future with his people.

Yes, the Kingdom is presently spiritual, and is recognized in a prelimiary form. But it is not yet here, or we would not be praying, "Thy Kingdom come." In the book of Revelation John prayed, "Come Lord Jesus."
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Is this appropriate? Reading material

I read somewhere that it was most likely an unfinished novel that some unknown person had written, and later abandoned. Ne'er-do-well Smith found it and decided to see if he could make a buck by building it up into a pseudo-religion and get rich off his followers.

He was never really the guiding force behind Mormonism anyway.....that was Brigham Young.

^_^

I read some Sufi poetry way back when I was in college, about the tail-end of the Paleolithic Age.....but I don't remember much about it. That was long, long ago. :)
It’s essentially fan fiction from what I’ve read.
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Is this appropriate? Reading material

I glanced through the Book of Mormon years ago. I gave up when every second paragraph started with "And it came to pass ...."

I think it's a work of fiction from beginning to end, with as much credibility as the Golden Plates that Smith was supposed to have found, a man with a criminal history and serial adulterer.



I wouldn't waste my time with Mormonism. They might have a great choir but so did the Red Army.

I've got an English translation of the Koran but haven't gotten around to reading it. I think there might be some wisdom to be gained from the Sufi's as they are the mystical equivalent within Islam. I believe the Enneagram derived from Sufi mysticism for example.
Thanks for sharing. I gave up after the second page.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

So the covenant is through faith, Israel has none, they kill, but Jesus saves life and we believe in Him, why would we believe in the example of those in the law who cant stop killing, as this..

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
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Israel and the New Covenant.

the law is gone but faith appeared, it means we would kill i the law as those in Israel are doing right now and the world is witness, but if we are in Christ, which they are not, we kill nobody
So how do you know what we should / shouldn't do? There HAS to be rules in place, otherwise chaos would ensue and just claiming you have trust in God (which is what the definition of faith is), doesn't in itself tell you anything else. There has to be something to write on our hearts and if its not God's moral law, which he spelled out in exodus, then what is it?

You don't flesh out your thoughts, you just rapid fire them with no verses attached and make multiple replies and honestly, its getting a little frustrating to keep track. Take a step back and please just make a post spelling out your stance with bible verses.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

Love does not delete the commandment to not worship other gods.
God is LOVE, as in brotherly Love and compassion. Once God reveals Himself as THEE GOD --> THEE WAY--> monotheism --> we can see that there are no other gods. So, just as Jesus said the Truth will set you free, we have been set free from worshipping false gods.

Love does not delete the commandment to not bow to false idols.
LOVE sees that those who would bow to false gods are blind and are in darkness. Surely you know God sees that.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Love does not delete the commandment not vain His holy name. Love does not mean we can profane God and break His holy Sabbath day.

Love to God is keeping His commandments

1 John5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Sadly, what people have been taught that we can define love instead of God is leading people down the wrong path of sin, unbelief and rebellion Heb3:7-19
The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin. <--This is my Love towards God within me through which I am thankful I am enabled to keep His commandments, and they are no burden. The Holy Spirit uses Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself within my reasoning to convict/convince me of sin. HE is Who sanctifies me.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

There is no "was" in Scripture.
1 John3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Belief is related to our obedience Heb3:7-19 why Jesus says why do you call me Lord Lord and not DO what I say. Luke6:46 Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of heaven Mat7:21-23.

Guess all will get sorted out in God's time.
if we commit sin it is through not believing in Christ, it is sorted out now..


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
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Priest explains why there is no hell

I‘m a bit confused … please clarify your “official doctrinal position” as it pertains to your statements in the highlighted portions above and below. I shouldn’t need to point out the inconsistencies of the bolded and underlined. Elaborate if you will please …

Man is spirit and body, both of which are subject to death.

Man is born spiritually dead
and eventually succumbs to physical death.
You're absolutely right!

I failed to distinguish between spiritually and Spiritually (of the Holy Spirit).
My usage there is Spiritually (of the Holy Spirit).

Man is born Spiritually dead (without the Holy Spirit within his spirit) and eventually succumbs to physical death.
But man's spirit is not dead, man's spirit is immortal.
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Awake Or Asleep?

Perhaps I can explain that with this question.
Can we be sure there are only two resurrections?

No, God's Program can be repeated over and over and over, with dozens of resurrections over the everlasting eternity.

But for me, according to what the Scriptures teach, there is only ONE resurrection after physical death that prolongs my life. And I am instructed to be diligent, to Labor that I am raised in that resurrection.

Let's build on what you know.
The kings and priests are resurrected to heaven to rule and judge with Christ for 1,000 years. You know those scriptures.

Yes.

The unrighteous are resurrected, and there is a thousand year judgment where these ones get a fair chance to do deeds based on knowledge, which they will be judged on.

This is not my belief, I'm sorry my speech left this impression. It wasn't the "unrighteous" that is said to be resurrected in Ez. 37, as I referenced. It was the "Whole house of Israel".

Ez. 37: 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

My understanding is lacking on a few points here, by lacking I mean, "I know what day God's Sabbath is", but I am sill questioning who this "whole house of Israel is", according to scriptures. "Not all Israel is of Israel". "A Jew is not a Jew outwardly".

I have thought that they are resurrected and taught by the Kings and Priests of God in the 1000 year reign. But God already knows the "heart" of true Israel. And the "Promised Land" is symbolic for the Kingdom of heaven.

It is written also;

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

But then I also know that "EVERY" person ever born, with the exception of Jesus, has engaged in this unrighteous behavior at some point in their lives. This includes you and I, this I know. Including the "Dead in Christ" that will be raised first, and be Kings and Priests in the 1000 year reign.

I really haven't spent a lot of time on this issue, but now that you brought it up, the more I study and dwell on it, the more I believe that the "Whole house of Israel", includes not only Israel, but those who chose to sojourn with Israel, as the Commandment states.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for "ye were strangers" in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

They would be the "Saints" who had all been in Egypt, (Lived in Sin), but had repented and turned to God.

Rev. 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith "of Jesus".

These would be the dead in Christ, the more I ponder and study.

The confusion, often comes from Revelation 29:5 Revelation 20:5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, "and" for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This would include Noah, Abraham, Caleb, David, Peter, James, and all the men who, as Paul teaches,

Eph. 2: 2 Wherein "in time past" ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Abraham walked according to the course of this world, before God called him out of sin/egypt/ the course of this world. He died "In Hope" that God's Promises were true and that he would be forgiven his sins.
However, rather than break down what is built, keep building.
We read Revelation 20:11, 12

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now we ask a question or two....
  • Who are the dead standing before the throne?

I think now, that this would be all those who were not of the first resurrection.

  • How can they be dead if they are standing?

Paul said EVERY man will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Wouldn't these then be the dead that are raised, as opposed to the dead that are not raised?

"5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The last question is a hint. :wink:

I'm grateful for the topic, and the study. I was wrong I think, about "Israel" being raised and taught by Priests in the 1000 year reign of Christ. I didn't connect the dead in Christ with the Children of Abraham (Israel inwardly) being those who did the "works of Abraham" which was defined by Scriptures as Faith, the same Faith Jesus had from a child.

Thank you.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

And where does the He said Law come from. I'll give you a hint its in God's Testimony Exo 20:1-17

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
it is from the law that was abolished, it was a curse, it was nailed to the cross of Christ, now it is in the heart, through CONSCIENCE..


Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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Israel and the New Covenant.

How do we believe in Jesus but not what He taught and lived.

Jesus said this.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Is this our version of what God's laws are or God's? I am going with God's Deut4:13 Rev11:18-19 Rev22:14-15

There are a million threads about using Paul to make a case of lawlessness. Which is sad, because Paul never taught to dishonor God Rom2:21-23 or to be an enmity to God Rom8:7-8 He said what matters is keeping the commandments of God1Cor7:19 and Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant at the Cross. Nothing can be altered, it would cause Jesus to have to be crucified all over again to change His laws. Why do so many people insist on making God out to not keep His promises Psa89:34 Mat5:18

You keep quoting Paul and misunderstanding him comes with a salvation warning 2Peter3:16. I would suggest you read his writings on how we can reconcile them with Jesus and not against Jesus.
to work iniquity is to not believe in Jesus, it is as simple as that..


Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

So if the law is gone, that means I can go be hitler and kill millions of people and still be saved?
If the law is gone, when Jesus says he will tell people who commit sin on the regular he never knew them, what is the point of that if there is no law anymore?
If the law is gone, then every single person is now going to heaven and there is no more narrow gate then?

Your argument conflicts with the majority of scripture.
the law is gone but faith appeared, it means we would kill i the law as those in Israel are doing right now and the world is witness, but if we are in Christ, which they are not, we kill nobody
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Israel and the New Covenant.

Yes, Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 no one is saved in there sins Heb 10:26-31. Sin is the transgression of God's laws 1John3:4

Why would someone in Christ want to stay in their sins any longer is beyond me considering what it did to Jesus on the Cross. We need a conversion in Christ. We can't profess Lord Lord and than live for the devil 1 John 3:8 its why the devil hates God's laws so much and has taught churches and billions of people we don't need to obey God. That we can re-write what it means to love God by being disobedient to Him, loving God on our terms, not God's. This is a popular doctrine, but its not Scriptural

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Lets get back to the topic!
Sin was the transgression of the law, now it is not believing that Jesus is Christ.


Being baptized into the death of Jesus is not by the works of the law but by the hearing of faith.



Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
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Israel and the New Covenant.

Is Paul teaching to be an enmity to God and not keep His laws Rom8:7-8

Just keep reading a bit further, this cannot be made any clearer

Rom3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
The law of God is the law that Christ did, by being on the cross, it is what saves, nothing else, and that also is the law of faith, to love in the same way, which is the only law we see Paul keeps.



2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
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Israel and the New Covenant.

Most who use Gal3:24 have never even kept God's laws as the schoolmaster to lead them to Christ,. They skip it and think they are in Christ. If we are in Christ, does Christ say we can break His commandments? He taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19 and keeping our rules over obeying the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Jesus said, one worships Him in vain Mark7:7-13 Mat15:3-19. This is not faith, but rebellion. Jesus could not condemn this practice more He said it leads one who teaches and follows into a ditch. Mat15:14 Faith is someone who hears the word of God and does it. James1:22 Rev22:14 1John 2:5
The least of the commandments is the law magnified and made honourable, here it is, the law is for the Gentiles/the people..



Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.


Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
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