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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Okay, first of all, kudos to you for doing your due diligence regarding the word "kaminos." What I notice is that it is nonetheless a furnace which is creative in its use. It is not used for destroying or torturing people. Smelting, burning earthenware, and baking bread are all positive and creative acts. The hell of those who believe in ECT is not exactly in any sense either creative or positive as an experience.
The problem with this theory is that you are back to assuming. A furnace can also be used to torture those that refuse to worship a king like the three that refused to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 3.
Smelting in the Bible is associated with metals. I think I can make that assumption here also.

No, you can’t make that assumption. That would be quite the hermeneutical error.
No, the wicked didn't wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. Of course, millions never even heard of the One who is the Lamb of God and takes away the sin of the world. But that's their fault for not being born in the right place and the right time, so to hell with them.
You are making an argument from emotion and your conclusions are again assumptions. God is a just and loving God. I am sure that whatever His plan it will be just. There are places in scripture that suggest that God’s call goes to everyone. Paul teaches in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse because God can be seen in His creation. Even in the Old Testament prior to the Mosaic law being given and even before the Noahide Laws people knew God so why would it be any different now? Salvation remains by faith and was by faith back then not by works as it is now. I know you being an EO will disagree with me there but think of Abraham.
You keep insisting that after death and after being cast into the Lake of Fire, there is no further chance for repentance and a change of heart. Why? Is God that mean-spirited that the only time one can repent is in this short and terrible lifetime we have now?
So you are saying that God gives us a moral law and an understanding of love that He Himself is neither subject to nor bound by? People insist that Hitler is in hell because he tortured people and killed them by the thousands, but if God Himself does it, He is above and beyond the same moral law that would condemn Hitler? I find that a bit preposterous.

I find that so many who believe in and insist upon and eternal hell of conscious torment are like Tertulian and Aquinas, both of whom rejoiced in the idea of their enemies suffering forever. Nice guys!

But once again your finite mind blames God. I would suggest that you go seek guidance in your church. I learned something a while back as I was studying theology with a pastor friend of mine and before I became a deacon in my church. It is absolutely true that there is an infinite difference between a finite being and an infinite being. God is an infinite being, you are a finite being. The scriptures teach God‘s attributes and it includes loving and just. I’m pretty sure that once you get to heaven and learned all truth you will fully agree with God’s plan.

BTW- You touched on another fallacy, Godwin’s law.
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Why we Christians still have to struggle with sins?

It is pretty clear on the face of it what Jesus is saying, and it is not that when He cried, "It is finished," it actually wasn't. Jesus is speaking in the past tense. "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,..." And what were the words he spoke back then? "That all things must be fulfilled." You see, he said that all things must be fulfilled that were spoken of him when he was yet with them, but now he is no longer with them as he was before, and now all things have been fulfilled. When Jesus said, "It is finished." You can bet your bottom dollar it was.

Of course, this is not the case, as I just pointed out. People who believe as you do can never say with certainty if they have kept God's law good enough or even what is good enough. Many people trying to work their way to heaven try to reduce God's Law to a manageable size by interpreting how to keep it in a way that they feel they can do it.

If they listen to the Holy Spirit and see the purity God actually demands, they would wilt like cut flowers in the sun. Jesus said it. You must be perfect as God. People who are working to keep the commandments to be saved can only say they love Jesus, but in reality, you can't love someone whom you don't know whether they are coming to destroy you or save you.

They worship a God who says to them Love and obey me, or I will kill you. To love like that is not love at all. Secretly, all of these people are afraid of God, afraid they have not done enough, that they have failed somehow. They are spiritually insecure creatures whose doubts and fears about their own salvation prevent them from true worship and adoration.

If Sabbath keeping is so important for salvation, why can't those who try to earn God's favor by "keeping" it agree on how it should be kept? How can you even know if you are keeping it. People who are working for God's free gift may do certain things on the Sabbath, such as going to church and reading their bible, and yet they will buy on the sabbath in certain cases. Is the Sabbath so unimportant that it doesn't matter what you actually do on that day as long as you carry the label of "Sabbath Keeper?"

If being a "Sabbath Keeper" is just a title, then what difference does it make?

This verse means Jesus’ one sacrifice is sufficient forever; no further sacrifices (animal or human) are required. It means obedience and repentance are a result of salvation.


  • Hebrews 10:12“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”
    Jesus’ sacrifice is final and complete.
  • 1 Peter 3:18“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God.”

Summary: No more animal sacrifices are needed, because Christ’s sacrifice is perfect and final.

This shows we have direct access to God through Christ, not through an earthly priesthood or temple rituals.


  • John 14:6“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
  • Ephesians 2:18“For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.”

Summary: The “new and living way” is Jesus Himself, our mediator — not a new set of sacrifices or temple system.

Yes, Jesus is now our High Priest in heaven — not any earthly priest.


  • Hebrews 4:14–16“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God… Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace.”
  • 1 Timothy 2:5“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Summary: Jesus is the only High Priest we need — no earthly sacrificial system remains.



This does not mean a believer who sins has no hope. It means rejecting Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice leaves no other sacrifice available. If we reject the Son, there’s nowhere else to turn.
  • “Willful sin” doesn’t mean every time you fall short or mess up.
  • The Greek shows it means to keep on sinning deliberately, as a chosen lifestyle — approving of what’s wrong instead of repenting.
  • It’s like turning your back on Jesus and saying, “I don’t care — I’m doing what I want.”

  • A believer who sins but then feels conviction, repents, and returns to Christ is not who this verse is warning.
    But someone who sins with no desire to change and rejects God’s authority is in the danger Hebrews describes.


    Summary of the Greek:
    • “Hekousiōs” = willfully, deliberately.
    • “Hamartanontōn” = ongoing sin, not a single act.
    • Together: “to keep on sinning deliberately.”
    • Meaning: willful rebellion or approval of sin, not accidental weakness.

You are saying that God says love and obey me, or I will do the most horrible things to you. But the reality is that "Sinning willfully” leads to a “fearful expectation of judgment,” not because God is eager to condemn, but because He alone provided the only way of salvation — Jesus.
If someone rejects that, there’s nothing else left to save them. He is the only salvation.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

This is not true. Your teachings are defacing God and presenting him as an ogre who demands love under the threat of death or worse. It is the same lie the serpent spat out at Eve in the garden when he suggested that God was a demanding tyrant keeping her from her full potential.
peace in Jesus name
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Should states take more responsibility for the Costs and decisions regarding social welfare programs?

Here’s the complete list below.

Your list calls attention to some important federal agencies. It makes no sense to have 50 different Centers for Disease Control, for example. Some things need to be federal.
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ICE arrests police officer in Chicago suburb and accuses him of being in US illegally

Have you applied for a job in the last 30 years?

Lying on your resume about anything beyond job duties won't even get past a basic background check, much less give you the documentation you need in order to fill out an I-9 and demonstrate employment eligibility. I suppose it's possible that a government agency would skip such formalities, but it strikes me as unlikely.
It got an illegal immigrant to become a school superintendent and live in the country for decades. All this shows is that fake documentation is far more sophisticated.
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Morality without Absolute Morality

Ok. We can jettison the term "moral relativism"...
So you think that supporting an absolute morality (it's the very basis of the discussion) is too hard and you want to talk about something else? Let me know when you've started the new thread.
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Who is on the Lords Side?

Thank you.
God is soon going to find out who has real faith and trust in Him.

Obviously there was no Christians; followers of Jesus before His Advent.
What all the Old Testament uses to refer to Gods people before Jesus, is Gods holy people, believers in God. Ruth is our example in the OT, of how a gentile can become an Israelite of God.

Your posts are hard to read, constructed in a weird manner and demonstrate your bias toward the false Israel.
And you do have a FALSE ISRAEL , IN A VERSE ??

And would ANYONE , IMITATE someone that are scattered all over the. world and you are always putting them down and

they are not to be found ??

dan p
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Now that we have gone back to images of cuts in rocks here is a statue of Bahubali one of the largest free standing monolithic statues carved from granite and completed around 980 AD.

Bahubali.png

(The fig leaf is a modern day construction not to upset conservative Christian sensitivities).

Now lets look at the technological development of iron and when it became hard enough to cut through or shape granite without the use of abrasives.

PeriodMaterial/TechnologyHardness (Mohs)Could cut granite w/out abrasives?Notes
< 1200 BCEBronze3–4Used abrasives (sand + copper saws)
1200–600 BCEWrought iron4Slightly tougher, still too soft
600–400 BCEEarly carburized steel5–6⚠️ LimitedCould peck, not slice granite
18th centuryCrucible steel7–8First reliable granite chisels
20th centuryTungsten carbide / Diamond9–10✅✅Industrial stonecutting era
Using the 'logic' employed in this thread based on the fallacies of argument of personal incredulity and argument from ignorance, even though the carvers of the statue had access to iron tools, the tools were not hard enough to cut directly or shape granite, the technology only became available in the 18th century with the development of crucible steel which is carbon hardened.

So therefore they must have used some unknown super technology like the predynastic Egyptians, in fact every cut mark in granite, a granite block or statue that was produced before the advent of crucible steel in the 18th century must have been produced using this super technology which then disappeared without a trace.
An obvious question which arises why did this super technology disappear only to be replaced by a major backwards step in technology in using crucible steel?!!

Here are the facts abrasive cutting went well into the 19th century using a sand and water slurry like the ancient Egyptians had used in combination with copper saws thousands of year earlier.
Works such as the statue of Bahubali are a testament to craftmanship not technology.
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PAUL EXPLAINS WHY ISRAEL WAS SET ASIDE , PERIOD. !!

# 1 FOR //. GAR , is a CONJUNCATION

# 2 THE // HO , is a DEFINITE ARTICLE. , in the NOMINATIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR

# 3. HEART //. KARDIA , in. the NOMINATIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR

# 4. OF THIS // TOUTOU , IS A DEMONSTRATIVE. PRONOUN. , in. the SINGULAR

# 5. PEOPLE //. LAOS. in the GENITIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR

# 6 IS WAX GROSS. // PACHYNO. in. the. AORIST TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE , in. the INDICATIVE MOOD , in the SINGULAR

# 7. AND. // KAI , is a CONJUNCATIO

# 8. THEIR EARS // OUS. , in. the DATIVE CASE. , in. the PLURAL. , in. the NEUTER

# 9 ARE DULL // is a ADVERB

# 10. OF HEART. // in. the AORIST TENSE , in. the ACTIVE VOICE , in. the INDICATIVE MOOD , in. the PLURAL

# 11 AND //. KAI , is a CONJUNCATION

# 12 THEIR // AUTOS. is. a PERSONAL POSSESSEIVE PRONOUN. , in. the GENITIVE CASE , in. the Plural

# 13 EYES. // OPHTTHAIMOS , in. the ACCUSATIVE. CASE in. the PLURAL

# 14 HAVE THEY CLOSED //. KAMMYO. , in. the AORIST TENSE , in. the ACTIVE VOICE. , in the INDICATIVE MOOD , means you better

believe that Israel closed their EYES , in. the Plural

# 15 LEST. // MEPOTE , is an ADVERB.

# 16 THEY SHOULD SEE // in the AORIST TENSE , is an. SUBJUNCATIVE , in the Plural

# 17 WITH ( THERE ). EYES //. OPHTHALMOS , in. the DATIVE CASE , in. the PLURAL

# 18 AND // KAI , is a CONJUNCATION

# 19. UNDERSTAND //. SYNIOMI. , in. the AORIST TENSE , in. the ACTIVE VOICE , is a SUBJUNCTIVE , in the PLURAL

# 20 WITH (. THEIR ). HEART in. the DATIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR

# 21. AND // KAI , is a CONJUNCATION

# 22 SHOULD BE CONVERED // EPISTREPHO. in the AORIST TENSE , in. the ACTIVE VOICE , is a SUBJUNCATIVE , in. the Plural

# 23 AND // KAI , is a CONJUNCATIVE. is a PLURAL

# 24 I SHOULD HEAL // IAOMAI. in. the AORIST TENSE , in. the MIDDLE VOICE , is a SUBJUNATIVE , in. the SINGULAR

# 25 THEM // AUTOS , is a PERSONAL POSSESSETIVE PRONOUN. , in a ACCUSATIVE CASE , is a PLURAL

And anyone can check and see what the CASES , VOICES , AND MOOD BY USING google .

These verses says why Israel was set aside !!

AND why we are NOT under the Law , but under Grace and are saved by GRACE , by Rom 10:9 and 10 and Eph 2:8

and why in. the BODY OF CHRIST there are NO PRIESTS. and no CONFESSIONALS. and no ANIMAL SCAIFICES and no TONGUES

and NO WATER BAPTISM and no PURGATORY. for we are not under the Law , bit under GRACE !!

And . what I. have written all can turn to ISA 6:9-12. and see. !!

dan p

Former Trump Adviser John Bolton Criminally Indicted

Ex-National Security Advisor John Bolton indicted for improper handling of classified documents


The list of more than a dozen items seized from the Bethesda, Maryland, home of President Donald Trump’s former national security advisor was included in search warrant documents filed with the U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland.

Among the technology seized from Bolton’s home were two iPhones — a red one with two camera lenses and a black one in a black case — and three computers, including a silver Dell XPS laptop with cables, a Dell Precision Tower computer model 3620 and a Dell Inspiron 2330 computer, according to the search warrant documents.

He is innocent until proven guilty.
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The Schumer Shutdown

John Thune offers Schumer vote deal to end government shutdown


Senate Majority Leader John Thune said he has offered the Democratic leadership a vote on extending the Obamacare tax credits that are about to expire—if they get behind reopening the federal government from its more than two-week shutdown.​
“We can guarantee you get a vote by a date certain,” Thune, a South Dakota Republican, told MSNBC in an interview published Thursday morning. “At some point, Democrats have to take ‘yes’ for an answer.”​
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Missing pages from one's bible

Check the actual writings -

Heraclas of Alexandria. Was title Archbishop of Alexandria. One writing from Dionysius of Alexandra referred to his as papas (father) a term of affection for his long term mentor.

It is further demonstrated in the simple fact that even today the Coptic Church does not come under the Authority of the Pope in Rome. They never have. Neither does the Eastern Orthodox. While cooperative, they do not view the Pope in Rome as the head of their Church. Even to the point of having different books in their Bible - which is where all this started.

Again - Pope as A title (office) did not exist for 300 years after the term of affection was used and the Roman Catholic Church was formed and then centered in Rome.
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rapture and tribulation books

I like this minister/teacher. It is a dispensational view, with a pre-tribulation rapture. I admit that I have not read this book, but I have listened to the 20 or so lessons from this teacher (former pastor) on the end times. He also is one of the few who have written a book on simplified theology from a Pentecostal view. I believe his views mirror the Assembly of God in most things and particularly the end times. Here is the free google preview.

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The Schumer Shutdown

This is the Schumer Shutdown, no matter how much a citizen of Australia wants to believe otherwise. The GOP has voted ten times in the Senate over the last couple of weeks to keep the federal government running. It is Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Party Senators who are voting to continue the shutdown. Therefore, despite how much a citizen of Australia appears to want to believe that the GOP is at fault, the plain facts show that this is indeed the Schumer Shutdown.
But a third of Americans voted for Kamala. Do the GOP not think ANY of those people deserve SOME compromise? It was only a slither of a third more voted for Trump - and a third were so upset by both choices - they didn't even vote!

Does the budget they are trying to pass even make sense for America?
It really sounds like government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires. (BBB!)
You see - I thought America was already favouring the rich over the poor - and already vastly disproportionate - and already punishing the poor who have to work 2 jobs each and hardly see the kids just to make rent. I thought Americas healthcare was already one of the most expensive and punitive regimes in the OECD. But I was WRONG! It turns out MAGA can punish the poor even more, while rewarding the rich so much more! (The top 0.1 percent get $390,000 more each year, but those under $17,000 a year get robbed another $1000 they just cannot afford to lose!)

There's going to be Civil Disorder if this goes through!

When you can get past the regime's outright LIES - this bill is REVOLTING!

Angry Bear | May 23, 2025 7:00 am​
...​
Robert Reich: The old professor in me thinks the best way to convey to you how utterly awful the so-called “one big-beautiful bill” passed by the House last night actually is, would be to give you this short 10-question exam. (Answers are in parentheses but first try to answer without looking at them.)​
1. Does the House’s “one big beautiful bill” cut Medicare? (Answer: Yes, by an estimated $500 billion.)
2. Because the bill cuts Medicaid, how many Americans are expected to lose Medicaid coverage? (At least 8.6 million.)​
3. Will the tax cut in the bill benefit the rich, the poor, or everyone? (Overwhelmingly, the rich.)
4. How much will the top 0.1 percent of earners stand to gain from it? (Nearly $390,000 per year.)
5. If you figure in the benefit cuts and the tax cuts, will Americans making between about $17,000 and $51,000 gain or lose? (They’ll lose about $700 a year.)​
6. How about Americans with incomes less than $17,000? (They’ll lose more than $1,000 per year on average.)
7. How much will the bill add to the federal debt? ($3.8 trillion over 10 years.)
8. Who will pay the interest on this extra debt? (All of us, in both our tax payments and higher interest rates for mortgages, car loans, and all other longer-term borrowing.)​
9. Who collects this interest? (People who lend to the U.S. government, 70 percent of whom are American and most of whom are wealthy.)​
10. Bonus question: Is the $400 million airplane from Qatar a gift to the United States for every future president to use, or a gift to Trump for his own personal use? (It’s a personal gift, because he’ll get to use it after he leaves the presidency.)​
Most Americans are strongly opposed to all of these things, according to polls. But if you knew the answers to these 10 questions, you’re likely to be in a very tiny minority. That’s because of:
(1) distortions and cover-ups emanating from Trump and magnified by Fox News and other rightwing outlets;
(2) a public that’s overwhelmed with the blitzkrieg of everything Trump is doing and can’t focus on this; and
(3) outright silencing of many in the media who fear retaliation from the Trump regime if they reveal things that Trump doesn’t want revealed.
Please do your part: Share this as widely as possible.​
Robert Reich, “What you need to share about the “one big beautiful” ugly horrible bill.”​
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Missing pages from one's bible

As @The Liturgist already pointed out, the Eastern Catholics have the same Canon as the Eastern Orthodox
My question to @Xeno.of.athens was about his Roman Catholic Bible missing pages - which obviously there are missing pages compared to the EASTERN Orthodox.

Lots of squirming going on here.
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