Your Core Belief(s)!

[cloudyday2]

I've been on this forum for ~3 years now. And I continue to find it interesting that when engaged in an exchange with a proclaimed Christian, whenever the topic heads towards the core reason(s) for their belief that Christianity is true, I often times sense push-back, or even retreat from the interlocutor prior to getting to the 'heart' of the matter? It seems as though many do not want their true and core belief thoroughly challenged.?.?.?

In such 'observation', I find it pertinent to create a designated topic for this finding alone.

As I've said elsewhere, I doubt the many topics, encompassed within apologetics, is neither the reason someone came to, or fell away from, the assertion(s) for YHWH. I would be rash to state that the SOLE reason many are believers, is due to perceived or discerned revelation.

Thus, for all of you whom came to God, by way of felt contact from the Holy Spirit, I guess it becomes necessary to then explore the topic of [external world skepticism], or as I will call it, EWS.

Are any of you believers game here? Below are the six methodologies in which I see believers coming to God. If you have any more, please indulge:

1) A felt thought, or intrusion, that seems not to have been your own; but from an 'external force'
2) Having an innate awareness, or a seemingly 'sixth sense'
3) Feeling(s) of intense euphoria, feeling overcome by an 'external force'
4) Actually hearing audible voices 'from God'
5) A burning in the bosom
6) Ability to all of a sudden speak in tongues, the angel's language, as the spirit takes you over

Another couple of ways to experience the Holy Spirit might be:
1) When the Holy Spirit tells somebody else some private information which is then provided as evidence of God. When Jesus met the Samaritan woman in the Bible and knew that she had been married five times and was not married to her current partner, this persuaded the Samaritan woman that Jesus was authentic.
2) When God answers a prayer such as when Jesus healed the man born blind. That persuaded the blind man.

 

[Tone]

Another couple of ways to experience the Holy Spirit might be:
1) When the Holy Spirit tells somebody else some private information which is then provided as evidence of God. When Jesus met the Samaritan woman in the Bible and knew that she had been married five times and was not married to her current partner, this persuaded the Samaritan woman that Jesus was authentic.
2) When God answers a prayer such as when Jesus healed the man born blind. That persuaded the blind man.

Yeah, here's some more:

Have you ever noticed how God signed the Bible to show that he wrote it?

*"The discovery of significant words spelled out at equidistant skip sequences of letters in the original text of the Hebrew Bible is powerful evidence that the Bible is a work of God rather than a work of men."
Torah code in the Hebrew Bible (differentspirit.org)

 

[Halbhh]

See post #156. If you want to continue spending time on this side-coversation, um, okay???

Furthermore, as I told another, this is nothing more than a side-conversation. It's all irrelevant to the OP. I'm happy to answer people's responses. However, at some point, I find it fair to draw a line in the proverbial sand. Enough is enough

My OP can be just as well given/presented to a Catholic, a Jew, a Protestant, a Methodist, a Muslim, a Scientologist, etc.... You all differ in your claims to salvation. So studying the Bible really does nothing now, does it?

The meat of this thread is to discern how you KNOW you have been contacted by God/the Spirit/Other, verses NOT? For many, this IS WHY they believe.

Please tell me which of the 6 methods, in post #1, applies for you? If you do not claim to have been contacted by the Holy Spirit, then please, let's not waste any more time on 'THE way to salvation' --- (where many Christians, whom have studied the Bible extensively, will also disagree with you)

Already in post #2.

 

[disciple Clint]

This response will ring deja vu...

Please demonstrate; rather than to only offer a blank assertion.

I'm into learning, as much as the next. Please teach me.

However, I trust you are also aware of the purpose for this forum?

---> Christian Apologetics

---> A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith.

In light of the intended purpose of this topic, do you actually care to engage in the OP? Because I'm willing to bet that even if I was to persuade you that I do indeed 'understand', and was also to demonstrate your then presented moral conflict, for instance, I sincerely doubt ANY of this has bearing upon why you believe what you actually believe. I'm more than willing to stake a wager that your core belief stems from 'revelation.'

You say you want to learn I have provided you with the access to tools to help you learn are you willing to expend the effort?

 

[cloudyday2]

Yeah, here's some more:

Have you ever noticed how God signed the Bible to show that he wrote it?

*"The discovery of significant words spelled out at equidistant skip sequences of letters in the original text of the Hebrew Bible is powerful evidence that the Bible is a work of God rather than a work of men."
Torah code in the Hebrew Bible (differentspirit.org)

I haven't looked for myself, but I have heard mixed things about the Bible codes.

Personally, I think God answers prayers sometimes and also communicates with people sometimes. These types of divine interventions do not obviously disturb the patterns of the natural world. It's ironic that God's respect for the forces of nature like gravity also might make him invisible to people who are looking for a disruption in nature as a sign of God's activity. A miracle can be a completely ordinary thing that happens at just the right time to nudge a person in a particular direction. Like you might just happen to turn to Christian TV and see a sermon that helps you after you had just finished praying for God's help.

But I completely agree with the assertion presented in the OP by @cvanwey . Christian apologists argue about flimsy philosophical reasons to believe in God, but those are not the reasons that most Christians believe. Most Christians believe because they have some evidence, but unfortunately the evidence is too subtle and personal to persuade others. Also, most Christians probably are subconsciously looking for reasons to believe, and most ex-Christians are subconsciously looking for reasons to disbelieve. Again the subtlety of God's activities makes it possible for reasonable people to reach either conclusion from the available evidence.

It is also important to distinguish between belief in a higher power and belief in the claims of some particular religious sect. Christian apologists often prefer to argue for the existence of a higher power, and then they claim that belief in some religious sect (such as Christianity) is an obvious outcome of belief in a higher power.

Another issue is that many people belief through inertia. If a person is born in a Christian family and grows up believing in Christianity, and if belief is causing him/her no problems, then there is no reason to examine that belief. The same is probably true of many non-Christians.

 

[Tone]

Christian apologists argue about flimsy philosophical reasons to believe in God, but those are not the reasons that most Christians believe. Most Christians believe because they have some evidence, but unfortunately the evidence is too subtle and personal to persuade others.

The Bible is evidence.

Christian apologists often prefer to argue for the existence of a higher power, and then they claim that belief in some religious sect (such as Christianity) is an obvious outcome of belief in a higher power.

Well, being as that the Creator I believe in made humans in His image, and the whole basis for His creation is based on speech, as in "Let there be light", I find it quite reasonable that there would be some record of this communication.

So then, I will always ground such a discussion in the Bible as propositional Revelation.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't believe due to your theories.

I'm aware You believe, apparently for the reasons already disclosed. However, thus far, I did not find such methodology a sound way to affirm your core belief. Sorry.

I can't add anything.

Fair enough

I wouldn't doubt your life experience, so why do you mine?

I do not doubt your life experiences. I only doubt your epistemology.

You gonna spend your whole life splitting hairs?

I don't know that asking how to actually validate a response, (as being from God), is 'splitting hairs"?

Have you read the Gospel of John at face value, or only read it with your "paradigm glasses"?

I have read John the same way I have read all other competing holy books. I do not believe the parts written, which assert the supernatural, just for starters.

Faith is not a quantity, it can't be measured. It's a quality. God bless.

I disagree with your conclusion. Sure, faith is a quality. But it is a quality that can be measured. And apparently, according to the Bible, God will measure your amount of faith, at judgement. I would venture to state that even an atheist has a tiny bit of faith

 

[cvanwey]

Another couple of ways to experience the Holy Spirit might be:
1) When the Holy Spirit tells somebody else some private information which is then provided as evidence of God. When Jesus met the Samaritan woman in the Bible and knew that she had been married five times and was not married to her current partner, this persuaded the Samaritan woman that Jesus was authentic.

Yes, this is a great example. I'll add it to the list in the OP.

2) When God answers a prayer such as when Jesus healed the man born blind. That persuaded the blind man.

Sure, but Jesus is not around to heal, in the flesh, like He was said to be in the Bible. But how about this one?

8) 'Verified' answered prayer (?????)

 

[cvanwey]

Already in post #2.

Sure, and it does not comply with the request of post #1.

So do we really want to still explore if Jesus deems you a 'sheep or a goat'? Or, do we want to discontinue this side topic?

 

[cvanwey]

You say you want to learn I have provided you with the access to tools to help you learn are you willing to expend the effort?

What I would like to learn, in this thread, is:

1. Do you ultimately believe in God, due to your claims that you have had revelation from the Holy Spirit? (yes or no question). If yes, proceed to question 2. If no, please skip to the below - (food for thought).

2. Going back to the OP, which of the given choices best explains your methodology of concluding you do or have received communication from God? If the choices are not presented on the list, then please explain yours?

(Food for thought), if you claim revelation is not why you ultimately believe, then I might find this hard to believe. Why? If your claimed alternative stated primary reason was discredited, even to your satisfaction, you'd likely still be a believer.

 

[Tinker Grey]

God will measure your amount of faith,

Indeed. Didn't Jesus say that faith can be measured against a mustard seed?

 

[cvanwey]

Indeed. Didn't Jesus say that faith can be measured against a mustard seed?

I think so. Along with other areas.

 

[Rachel20]

Desire - that's it for me. What was in my heart in the nano-second before the big bang after which everything else came into being, including many things on your list.

 

[cvanwey]

Desire - that's it for me.

Would you mind elaborating a bit more?

 

[Rachel20]

Would you mind elaborating a bit more?

Using the big bang as analogy, it seemed to me you were looking for the singularity and for me that was a desire for the God of the Bible. A luring to him. Or maybe the idea of being "drawn" to him as in John 6:44.

 

[Paul4JC]

Indeed. Didn't Jesus say that faith can be measured against a mustard seed?

I think so. Along with other areas.

31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches." [Mat 13:31-32 NIV]

20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." [Mat 17:20 NIV]

31 It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. [Mar 4:31 NIV]

19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds perched in its branches." [Luk 13:19 NIV]

6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. [Luk 17:6 NIV]

He showed that faith is in essence is more important than the size of it. It's the quality of the faith, not the size, that makes things happen. Otherwise wouldn't he want big faith instead of small. Faith a large as a mountain? Not the case.

[It's replayed in many Gospel stories like the women with bleeding. Mar 5:24-34]

He did say of measuring.....24 "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more. [Mar 4:24 NIV] So even here is he talking about measuring quantity or quality?

So even you guys don't need a lot of faith to believe the Gospel, just a little will take you a long way...if it's in the right place. God bless.

 

[cloudyday2]

Yes, this is a great example. I'll add it to the list in the OP.



Sure, but Jesus is not around to heal, in the flesh, like He was said to be in the Bible. But how about this one?

8) 'Verified' answered prayer (?????)

Yep, there are many people who believe that God answered a prayer for them or a loved one. In most cases the answers can be rationalized by skeptics as confirmation bias, but that does not dampen the faith of somebody who has a desire to believe.

 

[Paul4JC]

I would venture to state that even an atheist has a tiny bit of faith

There you go, God can work with that.

 

[cvanwey]

many things on your list.

Observing the 8). points in the OP, which one would you state applies to you the most?

And in observance of the topic of EWS, how were you able to successfully discern God, verses not God?

 

[cloudyday2]

Desire - that's it for me. What was in my heart in the nano-second before the big bang after which everything else came into being, including many things on your list.

For me it is a desire that there be some purpose to life.