Yoga poses used for stretches - not yoga meditation

[Isaac32]

There are multiple levels to consider here.

First, I may physically be in a position that resembles a yoga pose but not be aware that it is a yoga pose and thus not be doing it to invoke Hindu deities or whatever. It seems obvious that there is no wrongdoing here because I would neither be intending to do a yoga pose or yoga spirituality.

Second, I may physically position myself in a yoga pose and do it for spiritual purposes. Here I am obviously being idolatrous and this is wrong.

The big question, then, is whether it is okay to do something that has connections to non-Christian spirituality, even if you are not not utilizing it in a spiritual way. I would argue that things can be removed from their pagan context and used in ways that are not blasphemous. For instance, if it were discovered that the first hammer was used not as a tool, but to invoke a pagan god by striking objects, it would be silly to argue that everytime a person strikes an object with a hammer they are invoking a pagan god.

 

[All4Christ]

Not to be argumentative, but I am not so sure intention is a necessary factor. How many people since and before the time of Christ who were plagued by or possessed by demons do you suppose intended for that to happen?

I would assume that adding the meditation in would be a big pet of making yourself vulnerable. However, stretching...? Without the spiritual side of it? True yoga is a lot more than a stretch...

 

[Isaac32]

Not to be argumentative, but I am not so sure intention is a necessary factor. How many people since and before the time of Christ who were plagued by or possessed by demons do you suppose intended for that to happen?

It is in the intention where the morality and culpability lies. Who can and can't be possessed by demons is a different question than what we are talking about in this thread.

 

[seekingsolace]

Of all the stretches I've done in my life, this is the first time I've heard demonic possession mentioned.

Now I'll be paranoid just touching my toes...

 

[gzt]

On the other hand, demons are everywhere. Accidentally say "Om" instead of "Ohm" when talking about circuits? Boom! DEMONS. Open the wrong book? Boom! DEMONS. Make your oatmeal wrong? Boom! DEMONS.

And let's not forget about witches. We're all very attractive targets for them, since we're all pious Orthodox Christians, many of us converts, so we're very attractive targets for them to try to cast a spell on us. I imagine stretching in the wrong way may leave us vulnerable to that influence.

 

[seekingsolace]

On the other hand, demons are everywhere. Accidentally say "Om" instead of "Ohm" when talking about circuits? Boom! DEMONS. Open the wrong book? Boom! DEMONS. Make your oatmeal wrong? Boom! DEMONS.

And let's not forget about witches. We're all very attractive targets for them, since we're all pious Orthodox Christians, many of us converts, so we're very attractive targets for them to try to cast a spell on us. I imagine stretching in the wrong way may leave us vulnerable to that influence.

Witches you say? I better throw out those eyes of newt.

 

[truefiction1]

Fasting is also a significant part of Hinduism, as is monogamy.

 

[Isaac32]

Fasting is also a significant part of Hinduism, as is monogamy.

As is praying and receiving guidance from spiritual guides.

 

[E.C.]

I personally know a matushka who, years ago, was told by a chiropractor to do some yoga stretches to help fix her screwy back. She ended up taking up yoga as a hobby, with the blessing of the bishop, and now, also with a blessing, teaches it to the ladies in the parish. The provision that the bishop gave was that it must be for the physical exercise and health purposes only. Not the summoning of "gods". If I remember correctly he also said to begin and end each lesson with prayers.

And before anyone asks, since this is a public forum and a sometimes controversial topic, I will not share the names or jurisdictions of those mentioned above.

 

[truefiction1]

As is praying and receiving guidance from spiritual guides.

As is striving against sin and selfishness.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would assume that adding the meditation in would be a big pet of making yourself vulnerable. However, stretching...? Without the spiritual side of it? True yoga is a lot more than a stretch...

Unfortunately this thread has devolved into mockery ...

However, I do want to say - I know next to nothing about yoga, which I've said in other threads. What I was responding to was ONLY your question whether the intention is necessary in order for one to be in danger concerning demons.

And I would argue that one's intention is NOT a prerequisite for danger. I don't believe we are perfectly sealed from any demonic influence unless we specifically invite them. This is all I am saying on the matter.

However, it is my understanding that the last pan-Orthodox council (or whatever it is properly called?) spoke to forbid Orthodox Christians from practicing yoga. I read the declaration when it was released, as well as several other sections. I was only exploring Orthodoxy at that time, and I did wonder how binding the document was, because while the yoga part didn't matter to me, there were actually other parts I disagreed with.

So ... is it binding? Do they know what they are talking about? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the council, or synod, or whatever it was? Do we accept it? These are administrative questions I don't know the answers to. As I said, what interested me was another section and I disagreed with it. But ultimately I decided that the faith mattered more to me than whether they were right or wrong, and whether I would be obligated to follow it, so I suspended the matter in my own mind and continued my inquiry, and of course was baptized.

So how ought we talk about that? I'm not rebuking anyone, because I sincerely don't know the proper answer.

But as I said, I don't think (separate question) that we need to intend to court demons in order to fall prey to them in some manner.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It is in the intention where the morality and culpability lies. Who can and can't be possessed by demons is a different question than what we are talking about in this thread.

Yes, true. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing, or just making finer distinctions.

But I agree that culpability is dependent upon intention.

And I don't think demons need to be intentionally invited to be a problem.

What that has to do with yoga, I am unqualified to say.

 

[All4Christ]

Unfortunately this thread has devolved into mockery ...

However, I do want to say - I know next to nothing about yoga, which I've said in other threads. What I was responding to was ONLY your question whether the intention is necessary in order for one to be in danger concerning demons.

And I would argue that one's intention is NOT a prerequisite for danger. I don't believe we are perfectly sealed from any demonic influence unless we specifically invite them. This is all I am saying on the matter.

However, it is my understanding that the last pan-Orthodox council (or whatever it is properly called?) spoke to forbid Orthodox Christians from practicing yoga. I read the declaration when it was released, as well as several other sections. I was only exploring Orthodoxy at that time, and I did wonder how binding the document was, because while the yoga part didn't matter to me, there were actually other parts I disagreed with.

So ... is it binding? Do they know what they are talking about? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the council, or synod, or whatever it was? Do we accept it? These are administrative questions I don't know the answers to. As I said, what interested me was another section and I disagreed with it. But ultimately I decided that the faith mattered more to me than whether they were right or wrong, and whether I would be obligated to follow it, so I suspended the matter in my own mind and continued my inquiry, and of course was baptized.

So how ought we talk about that? I'm not rebuking anyone, because I sincerely don't know the proper answer.

But as I said, I don't think (separate question) that we need to intend to court demons in order to fall prey to them in some manner.

I'll respond more later - but please know I wasn't trying to participate in mockery. I do agree that we do not need to have the intention to be influenced by demonic presence, but I also think there is a difference between the position of vulnerability of participating in the meditation side of yoga vs stretching your back, etc. I keep thinking about the scripture where Paul talks about eating food designated for sacrifices for gods...that in and of itself it wasn't wrong, but if it causes one to stumble then we should abstain. Perhaps that is relevant? Or perhaps it is different altogether.

 

[Isaac32]

Yes, true. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing, or just making finer distinctions.

But I agree that culpability is dependent upon intention.

And I don't think demons need to be intentionally invited to be a problem.

What that has to do with yoga, I am unqualified to say.

My point is that if one's intention doesn't have any bearing on who is and isn't being possessed, then whether one is doing yoga or bending down to touch their toes doesn't matter. Both can be possessed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My point is that if one's intention doesn't have any bearing on who is and isn't being possessed, then whether one is doing yoga or bending down to touch their toes doesn't matter. Both can be possessed.

Bear in mind that I don't claim to know anything about yoga, so I'm not actually arguing one way or another.

But, forgive me, your statement seems to be akin to saying that whether one is using an Ouija board or pushing a block of wood around on a table are spiritually equivalent. I'm not sure if that's what you mean to say? Maybe I misunderstand, and if so, please forgive me.

But it seems that it's possible for spiritual "connections" to an activity CAN matter. Whether it does for yoga - again, I don't know. I just don't see these statements as providing definitive answers?

 

[gzt]

Demons should only be mocked. They are powerless against Christians and merely getting into a bodily posture won't put you under their influence. While I hate to start quoting the Fathers, I think it would be profitable to read The Life of St Anthony if you are worried about demons. Here are a few quotes. First about how they operate, then how we are to treat them.

23. 'The demons, therefore, if they see all Christians, and monks especially, labouring cheerfully and advancing, first make an attack by temptation and place hindrances to hamper our way, to wit, evil thoughts. But we need not fear their suggestions, for by prayer, fasting, and faith in the Lord their attack immediately fails. But even when it does they cease not, but knavishly by subtlety come on again. For when they cannot deceive the heart openly with foul pleasures they approach in different guise, and thenceforth shaping displays they attempt to strike fear, changing their shapes, taking the forms of women, wild beasts, creeping things, gigantic bodies, and troops of soldiers. But not even then need you fear their deceitful displays. For they are nothing and quickly disappear, especially if a man fortify himself beforehand with faith and the sign of the cross. Yet are they bold and very shameless, for if thus they are worsted they make an onslaught in another manner, and pretend to prophesy and foretell the future, and to show themselves of a height reaching to the roof and of great breadth; that they may stealthily catch by such displays those who could not be deceived by their arguments. If here also they find the soul strengthened by faith and a hopeful mind, then they bring their leader to their aid.

And then, and this is important. The devil has no power over Christians and we are not to fear them.

And he has not the power over swine, for as it is written in the Gospel, they besought the Lord, saying, Let us enter the swine Matthew 8:31 . But if they had power not even against swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. 'So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.

Later:

42. 'If, therefore, the devil himself confesses that his power is gone, we ought utterly to despise both him and his demons; and since the enemy with his hounds has but devices of this sort, we, having got to know their weakness, are able to despise them. Wherefore let us not despond after this fashion, nor let us have a thought of cowardice in our heart, nor frame fears for ourselves, saying, I am afraid lest a demon should come and overthrow me; lest he should lift me up and cast me down; or lest rising against me on a sudden he confound me. Such thoughts let us not have in mind at all, nor let us be sorrowful as though we were perishing; but rather let us be courageous and rejoice always, believing that we are safe. Let us consider in our soul that the Lord is with us, who put the evil spirits to flight and broke their power. Let us consider and lay to heart that while the Lord is with us, our foes can do us no hurt. For when they come they approach us in a form corresponding to the state in which they discover us , and adapt their delusions to the condition of mind in which they find us. If, therefore, they find us timid and confused, they immediately beset the place, like robbers, having found it unguarded; and what we of ourselves are thinking, they do, and more also. For if they find us faint-hearted and cowardly, they mightily increase our terror, by their delusions and threats; and with these the unhappy soul is thenceforth tormented. But if they see us rejoicing in the Lord, contemplating the bliss of the future, mindful of the Lord, deeming all things in His hand, and that no evil spirit has any strength against the Christian, nor any power at all over any one— when they behold the soul fortified with these thoughts— they are discomfited and turned backwards. Thus the enemy, seeing Job fenced round with them, withdrew from him; but finding Judas unguarded, him he took captive. Thus if we are wishful to despise the enemy, let us ever ponder over the things of the Lord, and let the soul ever rejoice in hope. And we shall see the snares of the demon are like smoke, and the evil ones themselves flee rather than pursue. For they are, as I said before, exceeding fearful, ever looking forward to the fire prepared for them.'

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'll respond more later - but please know I wasn't trying to participate in mockery. I do agree that we do not need to have the intention to be influenced by demonic presence, but I also think there is a difference between the position of vulnerability of participating in the meditation side of yoga vs stretching your back, etc. I keep thinking about the scripture where Paul talks about eating food designated for sacrifices for gods...that in and of itself it wasn't wrong, but if it causes one to stumble then we should abstain. Perhaps that is relevant? Or perhaps it is different altogether.

Forgive me, perhaps I shouldn't have said "mocking" because I'm not wanting to aim that at anyone in particular (and certainly not you, so please forgive me) ... but I am uncomfortable with the general tone. Perhaps I should not have allowed that to influence my comments - I rather doubt it is my place to do so.

You may be right on yoga. As I said - I don't know. I should have stated that very definitely in my first reply. After all, I don't know yoga and who knows - perhaps I naturally stretch into some of those positions anyway. Probably among the billions of people in the world - many do, not knowing yoga. And perhaps it is no problem. As I said, I don't know. And I'm certainly not assigning culpability or blame.

You also gave a point on the appearance of evil, but that is a separate question. And I think that has practical limits. These days, you can offend SOMEone by ANY thing you do, so avoiding all occasions of causing offense would mean you'd have to be inactive or a hermit.

But I think the key question you asked is - can assuming the yoga poses be spiritually dangerous? And I don't have that answer myself ...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Demons should only be mocked. They are powerless against Christians and merely getting into a bodily posture won't put you under their influence. While I hate to start quoting the Fathers, I think it would be profitable to read The Life of St Anthony if you are worried about demons. Here are a few quotes. First about how they operate, then how we are to treat them.


And then, and this is important. The devil has no power over Christians and we are not to fear them.


Later:

And forgive me. If it were the demons the mocking was directed to - no problem. But it felt like one another or some statements made by someone in the Church.

Again, I'm not making accusations. Not my place. But the "atmosphere" in general had that sort of feel. As I said, it's probably not my place to say anything. Please forgive me.

I am interested in the rest of your post and will read it, but this is just a comment on the mocking, or lack of.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Demons should only be mocked. They are powerless against Christians and merely getting into a bodily posture won't put you under their influence. While I hate to start quoting the Fathers, I think it would be profitable to read The Life of St Anthony if you are worried about demons. Here are a few quotes. First about how they operate, then how we are to treat them.


And then, and this is important. The devil has no power over Christians and we are not to fear them.


Later:

Good stuff, gzt. Thank you. I've not read that exactly, but other writings of the same "flavor".

And certainly, we need not FEAR demons in this situation, nor any other. However ... I think this is only one side of the coin, or perhaps rather only a single facet of something even more complex. I would agree with every bit of it, yet I think it unwise to consider ourselves immune from failure, deception, temptation, and so on. I think, though we ought not fear, yet it is wise to guard. And always of course remembering that it is through Christ that we enjoy such protection, for left entirely to our own ability, I fear to think what demons could do to us in that case. So no need to become arrogant, of course. I know you know all of this, and I don't presume to lecture you, but I just find it helpful to consider it all.

 

[Isaac32]

But, forgive me, your statement seems to be akin to saying that whether one is using an Ouija board or pushing a block of wood around on a table are spiritually equivalent. I'm not sure if that's what you mean to say? Maybe I misunderstand, and if so, please forgive me.

This analogy needs to be fixed. We are comparing fitness yoga to spiritual yoga, so we'd need a scenario in which one person was using a Ouija board for its intended purpose, i.e. trying to contact the paranormal, and using for something it wasn't initially intended for. So say I use a Ouija board not to communicate with the paranormal, but as a straight-edge for a drawing I am doing. Would that be wrong, or is it only wrong to use a Ouija board for its original, intended purpose?