• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The paraphrase I posted above made it clear to me.
Yup.
Here's the problem for me personally.

The standard reading explains the "unpardonable" aspect, but it doesn't explain the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. How does that definition of the unpardonable sin fit the passage? It doesn't. And why would Jesus make a point about saying that the unpardonable sin is to not have your sins pardoned. Doesn't that go without saying? And again, how does that fit the passage? (it doesn't) Help me to understand this if I am misses the obvious here. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:
The way I read it, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when the work of God is attributed to Satan. (which is what the scribes were doing by claiming Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub)

Why Jesus would call this the "unpardonable sin" is beyond me.

The standard explanation focuses on the "unpardonable sin" aspect rather than the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. I think that is the wrong way to define the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's a difficult passage.

This is the key verse from my perspective.

Mark 3:22 NRSV
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.”
 
Upvote 0

Eftsoon

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2021
769
491
34
London
✟63,492.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
True, but I was referring to learning about God, his will and his ways, rather than political action.

Cateteria style just will not serve you well in knowing and understanding God. . .just sayin'.

Certainly, a smorgasboard approach to God is dangerous, but I agree with other posters that action to promote justice and equality in the political sphere is part of our spiritual task.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don’t know, but if it is God’s plan do you think you have a better one?
Most certainly.
How about a plan that restored all things to their original state of perfection?
A plan that lavished mercy on all of creation. An end to death and suffering.
Reuniting all of creation in love. This of course would require some major renovation.
As with any renovation project, some demolition would be needed to remove the old to make way for the new.

How does that sound? (Matt 19:28; Rom. 8:20-21: Rev. 21:5)

Saint Steven said:
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
28,390
15,370
PNW
✟987,237.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yup.
Here's the problem for me personally.

The standard reading explains the "unpardonable" aspect, but it doesn't explain the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. How does that definition of the unpardonable sin fit the passage? It doesn't. And why would Jesus make a point about saying that the unpardonable sin is to not have your sins pardoned. Doesn't that go without saying? And again, how does that fit the passage? (it doesn't) Help me to understand this if I am misses the obvious here. Thanks.

I'd like to help, but you've thrown me for a loop lol.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to help, but you've thrown me for a loop lol.
LOL
That's funny!

The standard interpretation fails to explain what the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" means in that passage. The word "for" at the beginning of verse 30 means "because". They attributed Jesus' work (the work of God) to Satan. (compare Mark 3:22)


Mark 3:28-30 NRSV
“Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Saint Steven said:
Yup.
Here's the problem for me personally.

The standard reading explains the "unpardonable" aspect, but it doesn't explain the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. How does that definition of the unpardonable sin fit the passage? It doesn't. And why would Jesus make a point about saying that the unpardonable sin is to not have your sins pardoned. Doesn't that go without saying? And again, how does that fit the passage? (it doesn't) Help me to understand this if I am misses the obvious here. Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,523
2,683
✟1,049,359.00
Country
Sweden
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

We don't know if it's countless billions human souls/the vast majority that will go into destruction. There hasn't to be the "all will be saved" vs "most will be lost". Many Christians believe most will be saved.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Most certainly.
How about a plan that restored all things to their original state of perfection?
A plan that lavished mercy on all of creation. An end to death and suffering.
Reuniting all of creation in love. This of course would require some major renovation.
As with any renovation project, some demolition would be needed to remove the old to make way for the new.

How does that sound? (Matt 19:28; Rom. 8:20-21: Rev. 21:5)

Saint Steven said:
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

Ahh, so you can guarantee that there would be no adverse consequences as a result of this plan?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,908
...
✟1,323,209.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are many things I wish were true. I wish I could fly on my own power super fast in the sky like a supersonic jet, or I wish that there was no such things as spiders, bugs, scorpions, snakes, rats, etc.; But the cold hard reality is that things are the way they are for a reason that we may not always know.

Universalism is a person's thinking of how they wish things to be rather than the reality of what the Bible actually says. After the judgment: The wicked will perish (be destroyed or annihilated) in the Lake of Fire, and the righteous will live with God in His kingdom for all eternity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,724
2,919
45
San jacinto
✟207,728.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?
Are you implying that God is not capable of delivering both? Why must a choice be made?
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
13,858
4,508
72
Franklin, Tennessee
✟295,253.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Anything about "Free Will" there? I don't see it. Must be in the fine print in YOUR BIBLE. Why won't they come to Him? Compulsion? Ignorance? Inability? Lack of understanding? How Free was Pharoah's Will? How about Jonah's? What about all those folks who, in our Lord's Words (probably in YOUR BIBLE as in mine) "know not what they do"?

Nah, the "for by Free Will are we saved, and that of ourselves, God just provides the oportunity" is rubbish.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,908
...
✟1,323,209.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Anything about "Free Will" there? I don't see it. Must be in the fine print in YOUR BIBLE. Why won't they come to Him? Compulsion? Ignorance? Inability? Lack of understanding? How Free was Pharoah's Will? How about Jonah's? What about all those folks who, in our Lord's Words (probably in YOUR BIBLE as in mine) "know not what they do"?

Nah, the "for by Free Will are we saved, and that of ourselves, God just provides the oportunity" is rubbish.

So how do you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:10? It basically says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because.... THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they MIGHT BE SAVED. It does not say they are perishing because they were not elected. It also says that “they MIGHT be saved.” There is no “MIGHT be saved” in Unconditional Election or Calvinism.

Also, Jesus tells people basically to repent or perish in Luke 13:3. In Calvinism: The Elect are never truly in danger of ever perishing and the Non-Elect cannot repent.

Jonah 3:1-10 teaches that God told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in 40 days, but the Ninevites repented (i.e. they sought forgiveness with God by crying out to Him, and they forsaked their evil ways). When God had seen they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back on bringing His Wrath upon that He was going to originally bring upon them. Just read the short chapter for yourself and it is clear. The Ninevites changed the situation and it was not God electing them to salvation all of a sudden.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,908
...
✟1,323,209.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Anything about "Free Will" there? I don't see it. Must be in the fine print in YOUR BIBLE. Why won't they come to Him? Compulsion? Ignorance? Inability? Lack of understanding? How Free was Pharoah's Will? How about Jonah's? What about all those folks who, in our Lord's Words (probably in YOUR BIBLE as in mine) "know not what they do"?

Nah, the "for by Free Will are we saved, and that of ourselves, God just provides the oportunity" is rubbish.

Also, in Ephesians 2:8-9, when Paul said we are saved by God's grace and it is not that of ourselves, he was rebuking the false heresy at the time of which call, “Circumcision Salvationism.”

At the Jerusalem Council: In Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, we learn that there were certain Jews who were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially and foundationally saved (Instead of being saved initially and foundationally by faith in Jesus Christ and His grace).

For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised to be saved, they would be making a work or the Law the entrance gate and foundation of their faith instead of Jesus and His grace.

Paul also argued against this heresy, as well. In Galatians 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Then Paul says in Galatians 5:4 that if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. This would be the Old Law, because circumcision was a part of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants and not the New Covenant given to us by our Lord Jesus. So Paul was fighting against those who thought they could save themselves by their Works ALONE without God's grace. That is why Paul spoke in the way that he did. That is why Paul said that salvation is not that of yourselves. Paul was alluding to this particular heresy that was a problem during that time.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,908
...
✟1,323,209.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Anything about "Free Will" there? I don't see it. Must be in the fine print in YOUR BIBLE. Why won't they come to Him? Compulsion? Ignorance? Inability? Lack of understanding? How Free was Pharoah's Will? How about Jonah's? What about all those folks who, in our Lord's Words (probably in YOUR BIBLE as in mine) "know not what they do"?

Nah, the "for by Free Will are we saved, and that of ourselves, God just provides the oportunity" is rubbish.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,382
Dallas
✟1,091,033.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are many things I wish were true. I wish I could fly on my own power super fast in the sky like a supersonic jet, or I wish that there was no such things as spiders, bugs, scorpions, snakes, rats, etc.; But the cold hard reality is that things are the way they are for a reason that we may not always know.

Universalism is a person's thinking of how they wish things to be rather than the reality of what the Bible actually says. After the judgment: The wicked will perish (be destroyed or annihilated) in the Lake of Fire, and the righteous will live with God in His kingdom for all eternity.

I think the important thing is that we have to understand that our comprehension is far beneath God’s comprehension so we have to trust that His information on this matter is far more extensive than our’s therefore He is able to make the absolute best decision that we may not be able to comprehend.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,908
...
✟1,323,209.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think the important thing is that we have to understand that our comprehension is far beneath God’s comprehension so we have to trust that His information on this matter is far more extensive than our’s therefore He is able to make the absolute best decision that we may not be able to comprehend.

There are several different views on God's ultimate punishment or final justice of the wicked.

#1. Universalism: (is the opposite wrong extreme in that God is so loving in the fact that He ignores fair justice so as to let the wicked be saved despite the sacrifice of that the saints made). Also, things like lost, and saved don't really mean anything in Universalism. All will be saved according to them. The urgency of preaching the gospel is null and void in this belief, as well. Why preach for others to be saved if all will be saved in the end?

#2. Eternal Conscious Torment:
(is the other opposite wrong extreme in that God is so full of vengeance that His wrath against the wicked turns into ignoring fair justice to torturing the wicked for all eternity). This is a form of punishment that is overkill and it makes God out to be cold and heartless by the extreme cruelty of the kind of punishment given. Note: Many see the attack on God's good character with Calvinism, but they don't see it in Eternal Conscious Torment.

#3. Traditional Conditional Immortality:


(a) Lake of Fire
(Traditional Conditional Immortality):

This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical. So when I refer to “Conditional Immortality” in a positive way, or when I refer to “Conditional Immortality verses” in support of my view of God’s punishment of the wicked, I am referring only to the Lake of Fire teaching portion only. For I do not hold to the Conditional Immortality Proponent’s viewpoint on hell.​

(b) Hell
(Traditional Conditional Immortality):

Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents believe that hell is just a metaphor, and they believe in a teaching called “soul sleep” (i.e. that the wicked will not know anything and sleep or not be aware of anything until the Judgment). I do not find their view on soul sleep to be biblical. Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents also believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is just a fictional story used to teach a spiritual truth or lesson. However, I do not believe this view of hell is biblical.​

#4. Dualistic Conditional Immortality:


(a) Lake of Fire:
(Dualistic Conditional Immortality):

This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical.​

(b) Hell:
(Dualistic Conditional Immortality):

Dualistic Conditional Immortality Proponents believe hell is a very real and literal place. There are differing views among these types of believers on how hell is portrayed, but they all believe hell is literally real, and it is a place that no person would desire to be. It is a place of torments (Just as Scripture says). Some who hold to this view believe that hell is similar to that of the view portrayed in the Eternal Torment View. They believe it is a place where the wicked are being burned in flames (tortured), and they are screaming from the pain of the flames, etc.; Others (like myself) believe that the rich man was not tormented by an intense earthly flame (that would cause great pain), but he was tormented by the heat of the flame near him, or he was tormented by an otherworldly flame that did not cause him to scream uncontrollably (like an earthly flame would do).​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,593
North Carolina
✟348,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Paganism is woven into it, just like paganism is woven into the birth and resurrection of Christ. The origins of Christmas (Santa, elves, yule etc) and Easter (bunnies and eggs etc) are as pagan as it gets.
And what believer thinks any of that has anything to do with Christianity?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,593
North Carolina
✟348,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Staying inside a theological / doctrinal box isn't necessarily a good thing either.
Jesus disagrees with you when it comes to the God-breathed Scriptures, as does Paul (1 Corinthians 4:6), in the sense of not going outside what they teach.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,593
North Carolina
✟348,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But using non-violence to achieve a good political outcome is a spiritual practice, not a political one and MLT paid a great price: threats to his family, beating, imprisonment and eventually his death.

God is concerned with politics. He wants us to give people the Good News so that people have hope but He also wants us to to eradicate poor education, housing and employment opportunities, the factors that destroy it.
You's is a good child. . .
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,724
2,919
45
San jacinto
✟207,728.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Paganism is woven into it, just like paganism is woven into the birth and resurrection of Christ. The origins of Christmas (Santa, elves, yule etc) and Easter (bunnies and eggs etc) are as pagan as it gets.
Why do Christians uncritically accept these kinds of claims? While there have often been claims of pagan origins, these claims nearly always are speculative at best. Of the traditions that we can trace the origins of, few of them are Christianized pagan elements and the ones most often cited as pagan in origin arose separately and distinctly from their supposed pagan analogues and the resemblances are coincidental at best.
 
Upvote 0