Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Fervent]

You sidestepped the questions. For obvious reasons?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?

No, I didn't side step it. I want both, and I trust God to give me both. Why should I have to choose?

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do Christians uncritically accept these kinds of claims? While there have often been claims of pagan origins, these claims nearly always are speculative at best. Of the traditions that we can trace the origins of, few of them are Christianized pagan elements and the ones most often cited as pagan in origin arose separately and distinctly from their supposed pagan analogues and the resemblances are coincidental at best.

I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXX


Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, I didn't side step it. I want both, and I trust God to give me both. Why should I have to choose?

That's twice.

Saint Steven said: ↑
You sidestepped the questions. For obvious reasons?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?

 

[Fervent]

I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXX


Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

Boy, that is quite the abuse. I was unaware that Chistmas trees were in fact carved idols that people bowed down and worshiped.(sarcasm)

 

[Fervent]

That's twice.

Saint Steven said: ↑
You sidestepped the questions. For obvious reasons?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?

There is no sidestepping, I gave you a direct answer. I trust God to be the judge of when and where to apply justice and when to show mercy. I do not "wish" justice on anyone, I simply will not stand in judgment of God's distribution of it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Boy, that is quite the abuse. I was unaware that Chistmas trees were in fact carved idols that people bowed down and worshiped.(sarcasm)

LOL - yes
Amazing that the translation uses the word "deck". (like deck the halls)

Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no sidestepping, I gave you a direct answer. I trust God to be the judge of when and where to apply justice and when to show mercy. I do not "wish" justice on anyone, I simply will not stand in judgment of God's distribution of it.

Explain the justice of a forever burning hell. Is that really justice? Or will you gloss over it?

 

[Fervent]

Explain the justice of a forever burning hell. Is that really justice? Or will you gloss over it?

That doesn't sound like justice, though I don't make claims how God will deal with those who are not saved(nor even if such a category even exists). If God's plan is to save all, that's God's justice. If some are damned and suffer in some manner, whether eternal or not, that too will be perfectly just. Perhaps God will explain it, but ultimately I'd rather err on the assumption that there is a real danger of some form of punishment reserved for those who do not submit to the gospel as that seems to be the Biblical message.

 

[Jipsah]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Well that can't be right! Salvation requires our conscious assent, at a minimum. None of that sissy Sola Gratia stuff for us. We act to be saved! I have decided to follow Jesus! I have found it! I saw the light! I will arise and go! Salvation is out of God's hands, He's did His part and now has nothing more to say. It's all up to us. None of the deus ex machina stuff for us, no pulling us out of the raging torrent, no dramatic rescues. God's role has been played, now it's all up to us, and our Free Will.

Better leave off praying for someone to get saved, either. God's not allowed to interfere, No Robots, right? Apparently salesmanship is OK, though. Tell 'em Christianity will make them happier, more successsful, solve their problems, help 'em lose weight, give up drink/drugs, and send 'em to Heaven for eternity just for lagniappe. If that doesn't work, remind them that God designed the universe in such a way that those who chose not to embrace the Christian Faith for any reason at all, or simply gave no thought to religion at all (and there are bunches of those folks) will be tortured for all eternity just as a reminder of the magnitude of of their mistake.

Universalism extends grace to include everyone, regardless of faith in Christ or not.

And if God wants to extend grace to everyone, as it sounds very much like He does, that's not allowed either.

 

[ozso]

And what believer thinks any of that has anything to do with Christianity?

Considering most Christians incorporate most or all of that into their celebration of Christ's birth and resurrection, I'd say most believers think it has something to do with Christianity.

 

[zoidar]

No. Most Christians believe in the narrow gate and few that find it, and the broad gate that leads to destruction.

What is the current population of China? How many of those are heading for heaven? Now project backwards 5 to 10 thousand years. Did you reach countless billions yet? Easily tens, if not hundreds, of billions.

Saint Steven said: ↑
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

I didn't say most, I said many. Who knows the numbers? Few vs many, broad vs narrow is also figurative, not numbers. Jesus from my view shows that it's a serious matter, not something to take lightly on. I see it more like a call to each one of us, to take our walk with Jesus seriously, rather than for it being a description of amounts.

I know there are Christians that do believe that the number of saved will be very small, but not sure most Christans believe that. We also have Bible verses talking about huge masses of people and many being saved.

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
— Matthew 8:11

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
— Revelation 7:9

And the people of China? I say we don't know until that day. Until then let's pray for people and spread the gospel, that Christ has risen, that he has risen indeed!

 

[ozso]

I was shocked when I first saw this one. cc: @MMXX


Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

I remember my Grandma paraphrasing that when I was a little kid. But I think that passage was specifically about creating idols like Asherah poles ("Worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan" suggests carving out an image) rather than Christmas trees. But still it's interesting how easily the image of a Christmas tree can pop into your head when reading that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The actual place called Gehenna mostly. But also Sheol.

Yes that’s what I expected. I can surely understand Sheol not being a reference to hell but Gehenna is definitely a reference to hell. Jesus mentioned Gehenna about 6 times in the scriptures and every single time He mentioned it, it was definitely a reference to hell. I don’t think that Sheol is a reference to hell, I think it is a waiting place for those who have received condemnation. I also believe that those who were declared righteous by God who were waiting in Sheol are no longer waiting in Sheol but are in Heaven with The Lord. I think they were released from Sheol when Jesus was crucified.

 

[ozso]

Yes that’s what I expected. I can surely understand Sheol not being a reference to hell but Gehenna is definitely a reference to hell. Jesus mentioned Gehenna about 6 times in the scriptures and every single time He mentioned it, it was definitely a reference to hell. I don’t think that Sheol is a reference to hell, I think it is a waiting place for those who have received condemnation. I also believe that those who were declared righteous by God who were waiting in Sheol are no longer waiting in Sheol but are in Heaven with The Lord. I think they were released from Sheol when Jesus was crucified.

Based on what I understand at this point; Hell is a place in Norse mythology like Asgard, Jotunheim, Midgard, Nidavellir etc.

Whereas Gehenna is an actual place in Israel like Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth etc. You can go to Israel and visit present day Gehenna, which looks like this:

But it used to look something like this:

And here's a depiction of what Jerusalem looked like within a generation of Jesus saying those things:

 

[ozso]

LOL - yes
Amazing that the translation uses the word "deck". (like deck the halls)

Jeremiah 10:3-4
For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;
4 people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

Uh oh... I missed that part. It's a good thing I stopped bothering to do any tree decking years ago.

 

[Hmm]

'tis, too!

tisn't

 

[Saint Steven]

That doesn't sound like justice, though I don't make claims how God will deal with those who are not saved(nor even if such a category even exists). If God's plan is to save all, that's God's justice. If some are damned and suffer in some manner, whether eternal or not, that too will be perfectly just. Perhaps God will explain it, but ultimately I'd rather err on the assumption that there is a real danger of some form of punishment reserved for those who do not submit to the gospel as that seems to be the Biblical message.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Saint Steven]

I didn't say most, I said many. Who knows the numbers? Few vs many, broad vs narrow is also figurative, not numbers. Jesus from my view shows that it's a serious matter, not something to take lightly on. I see it more like a call to each one of us, to take our walk with Jesus seriously, rather than for it being a description of amounts.

I know there are Christians that do believe that the number of saved will be very small, but not sure most Christans believe that. We also have Bible verses talking about huge masses of people and many being saved.

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
— Matthew 8:11

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
— Revelation 7:9

And the people of China? I say we don't know until that day. Until then let's pray for people and spread the gospel, that Christ has risen, that he has risen indeed!

If it is indeed many, that is more of a support for UR than the standard position. Your Revelation 7:9 quote would support Ultimate Redemption.

 

[zoidar]

If it is indeed many, that is more of a support for UR than the standard position. Your Revelation 7:9 quote would support Ultimate Redemption.

If there is a middle position I'm taking it.

I don't believe all, but many.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suppose you would have to define what you mean by "adverse consequences", but certainly at a minimum, weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus says you would be better off losing an eye or a hand. So yes, it is serious.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Most certainly.
How about a plan that restored all things to their original state of perfection?
A plan that lavished mercy on all of creation. An end to death and suffering.
Reuniting all of creation in love. This of course would require some major renovation.
As with any renovation project, some demolition would be needed to remove the old to make way for the new.

How does that sound? (Matt 19:28; Rom. 8:20-21: Rev. 21:5)

Saint Steven said: ↑
What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

What I mean is can you guarantee that there would be no adverse consequences as a result of allowing everyone into heaven? It’s basically a rhetorical question, no you can’t because you don’t know.