Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[LoveGodsWord]

I imagine because when people develop a callous on their heart so that they refuse to see the world through other peoples eyes, they become a bit inward looking and isolated.

They end up being a “truth” bore, one of those people who spends everyday and wastes every social interaction telling people about climate change or their lifestyle diet or why Palestinians deserve to have their own state.

It’s often (not always) a huge red flag that the person you’re speaking with has no interest in you but rather is only concerned about their own self gratification.

Sorry I do not agree for the reasons outlined from the scriptures in the full post you are only part quoting from. Now according to the scriptures if our salvation and sanctification comes from believing the truth of God's Word *John 17:17; John 3:16-20 and we do not truly worship God unless we worship Him in Spirit and in truth (the truth of Gods' Word) *John 4:24 and God's sheep (saints) are only those who hear His voice (the Word) and follow him *John 10:26-27 then how can those who believe the truth of God's Word and those who do not believe the truth of God's Word end up in the same place?

They do not because it is written in Matthew 7:13-14 [13], Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14], Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it. Those who believe and follow God's Word and those who do not believe and follow God's Word are traveling different paths according to the scriptures and how those who do not believe and follow God's Word end up on a different path is through false teachers and messengers that they choose to believe and follow according to the next verse in Matthew 7:15 [15], Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Therefore only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29).

 

[zoidar]

If you’d like a book that argues extensively for the beliefs of the early church being more Universalistic leaning, I recommend “Universalism: The prevailing doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years.” The name isn’t very catchy, but it does what it says on the tin. Some of the hard evidence from Christian iconography in the burial catacombs is an eye opener. The schools are included in here too, if memory serves.

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

Hm, I would rather read something that might be more "neutral". If there is a book like this, without an agenda I would be more interested

 

[Hmm]

If we have God's Word to tell us what truth is why would anyone want to walk about in teachings that are not true and can lead us away from God and His Word?

As you will know from this forum alone, people hold different views on just about anything to do with the Bible. I think it's important to always have a beginner's mind and not to think there is nothing we can learn from other Christian perspectives, and non-Christian views too if it comes to that. God is bigger than anyone's personal understanding of Him and we can never constrain Him inside a box of our own making or any denomination's making. We should be confident in our faith but we never complacent. Like in any lifelong relationship, we will always be learning new and sometimes surprising things about God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As you will know from this forum alone, people hold different views on just about anything to do with the Bible. I think it's important to always have a beginner's mind and not to think there is nothing we can learn from other Christian perspectives, and non-Christian views too if it comes to that. God is bigger than anyone's personal understanding of Him and we can never constrain Him inside a box of our own making or any denomination's making. We should be confident in our faith but we never complacent. Like in any lifelong relationship, we will always be learning new and sometimes surprising things about God.

Not when it comes to giving up the truth of what Gods' Word says we should believe and follow. According to the scriptures sin separates us from God so that he will not hear us in Isaiah 59:9 and if we are living a life of known unrepentant sin God will not hear us (Proverbs 28:9; 13). Also, there is the question of who we seek to know Gods' truth from. Do we seek it from the teachings of men or do we ask God and seek to know the truth of God through His Word by the promise of His Spirit (see John 8:31-36; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 14:26; Hebrews 8:11; 1 John 2:27). The only test to know if someone knows God or does not know is found in 1 John 2:3-4 and the scriptures teach he who God sends speaks the Word of God for God gives not the Spirit by measure to him and he that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him *John 3:34; 36. Universalism is a message of peace and safety and unbelief in the scrptures and the bible teaches "For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape" - 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Therefore the scriptures are something to pray about, believe and follow and not take lightly. Believing and following what Gods' word says and not believing and following what Gods' Word says is the difference between those who are saved and those who are not saved according to the scriptures *John 3:16-20.

 

[Cormack]

@zoidar

In terms of my sympathy towards universal reconciliation, there are reasons but to go deep into why would be making the topic into the kind of animal I’ve always shared that it’s not. It’s not about whether or not universal reconciliation is true but rather it’s about whether or not it’s preferable.

The fact is that people who can’t follow the structure and purpose of an online thread are a rich sort to boast about following Gods ways, since my topic should be a lot easier to follow along with than Gods command to deny thyself etc.

Though if you’d like to glean an argument while we both remain in the topics scope, just think back on our exchange about justice being done.

You argued that perhaps it’s better to prefer something other than universal reconciliation because of “justice,” many posters have argued in that style, but I’ve already refuted that idea several times over by the fact that according to universalism Christ’s death is the satisfaction of universal justice.

I’ve refuted the idea that justice isn’t done under universalism in multiple ways, while also casting doubt on whether or not justice is being done in the traditional sense.

That’s a philosophical argument tied into Gods loving nature that works in favour of universalism, it’s a reason that appeals to our understanding and experience of what a morally perfect God looks like.

People who feel Gods love shouldn’t struggle with or resent the idea that others could feel that love too (even the whole world.) People who have felt Gods love should be desirous that others feel it too.

When users in the chat have shared things like “All I know about God comes from the Bible,” they’re inadvertently giving the game away that they know nothing about God experientially.

The vast majority of the thread has been made up of triggered people derailing the topics purpose, that’s not Christianity in action, that’s something neurotic and weird and probably demands therapy. No shade.

 

[Hmm]

I really like you, so pardon me for saying this:
you present faith as an intellectual exercise, grounded/based in human reasoning and wisdom.

Thank you and ditto. Sorry if I present it that way. I see faith as a loving relationship with God above all but on a forum it's hard not focus on the intellectual framework within which your faith makes sense. Reason is important - God has given it to us among all His creatures at least to the extent to which we have it - but I don't think of it as being the ground of my faith. Emotions and spiritual understanding, for want of a more accurate term, are also important but the grounding is in the fundamental reality that is God. We apprehend God through our mind, body and soul but I guess a forum is best suited to our thinking mind.

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar

In terms of my sympathy towards universal reconciliation, there are reasons but to go deep into why would be making the topic into the kind of animal I’ve always shared that it’s not. It’s not about whether or not universal reconciliation is true but rather it’s about whether or not it’s preferable.

The fact is that people who can’t follow the structure and purpose of an online thread are a rich sort to boast about following Gods ways, since my topic should be a lot easier to follow along with than Gods command to deny thyself etc.

Though if you’d like to glean an argument while we both remain in the topics scope, just think back on our exchange about justice being done.

You argued that perhaps it’s better to prefer something other than universal reconciliation because of “justice,” many posters have argued in that style, but I’ve already refuted that idea several times over by the fact that according to universalism Christ’s death is the satisfaction of universal justice.

I’ve refuted the idea that justice isn’t done under universalism in multiple ways, while also casting doubt on whether or not justice is being done in the traditional sense.

That’s a philosophical argument tied into Gods loving nature that works in favour of universalism, it’s a reason that appeals to our understanding and experience of what a morally perfect God looks like.

People who feel Gods love shouldn’t struggle with or resent the idea that others could feel that love too (even the whole world.) People who have felt Gods love should be desirous that others feel it too.

When users in the chat have shared things like “All I know about God comes from the Bible,” they’re inadvertently giving the game away that they know nothing about God experientially.

The vast majority of the thread has been made up of triggered people derailing the topics purpose, that’s not Christianity in action, that’s something neurotic and weird and probably demands therapy. No shade.

Even if it is the most preferable, how does it matter if it's not true? We are to hold to truth, right? Even if it's not the most preferable.

 

[Clare73]

As you will know from this forum alone, people hold different views on just about anything to do with the Bible. I think it's important to always have a beginner's mind and not to think there is nothing we can learn from other Christian perspectives, and non-Christian views too if it comes to that. God is bigger than anyone's personal understanding of Him and we can never constrain Him inside a box of our own making or any denomination's making. We should be confident in our faith but we never complacent. Like in any lifelong relationship, we will always be learning new and sometimes surprising things about God.

This cafeterial style is not going to serve you well, my friend. . .just sayin'.

God doesn't do "cafeteria."

 

[Hmm]

This cafeterial style is not going to serve you well, my friend. . .just sayin'.

God doesn't do "cafeteria."

Martin Luther King was inspired by Gandhi's method of nonviolence and used it as the guiding principle in the civil rights movement. He connected Gandhi's words about "truth-force" or "love-force" to Jesus' precept to love our enemies. He saw how we could best do this in the struggle for freedom through taking nonviolent action and he realised how powerful a force this could be in taking not exactly cafeteria-style political action.

If MLK could learn from non-Christians, I'm sure I can too.

 

[Clare73]

Martin Luther King was inspired by Gandhi's method of nonviolence and used it as the guiding principle in the civil rights movement. He connected Gandhi's words about "truth-force" or "love-force" to Jesus' precept to love our enemies. He saw how we could best do this in the struggle for freedom through taking nonviolent action and he realised how powerful a force this could be in taking not exactly cafeteria-style political action.

If MLK could learn from non-Christians, I'm sure I can too.

True, but I was referring to learning about God, his will and his ways, rather than political action.

Cateteria style just will not serve you well in knowing and understanding God. . .just sayin'.

 

[ozso]

And to what believer does that mythology replace words not associated with hell?

Paganism is woven into it, just like paganism is woven into the birth and resurrection of Christ. The origins of Christmas (Santa, elves, yule etc) and Easter (bunnies and eggs etc) are as pagan as it gets.

 

[ozso]

True, but I was referring to learning about God, his will and his ways, rather than political action.

Cateteria style just will not serve you well in knowing and understanding God. . .just sayin'.

Staying inside a theological / doctrinal box isn't necessarily a good thing either.

 

[Hmm]

True, but I was referring to learning about God, his will and his ways, rather than political action.

But using non-violence to achieve a good political outcome is a spiritual practice, not a political one and MLT paid a great price: threats to his family, beating, imprisonment and eventually his death.

God is concerned with politics. He wants us to give people the Good News so that people have hope but He also wants us to to eradicate poor education, housing and employment opportunities, the factors that destroy it.

 

[John Mullally]

God is concerned with politics. He wants us to give people the Good News so that people have hope but He also wants us to to eradicate poor education, housing and employment opportunities, the factors that destroy it.

Yes, Politics is important. I don't believe He wants all His people to go through the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to share the Gospel.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

 

[ozso]

What a nothing-burger.

The Catholic church uses "sacrament" for musterion (mystery).

Greek itself was a language of pagans, and yet it is the language of the NT word of God.

A word is nothing more whan what it means in the language.

Get over yourselves.
And "grace" is the same.

The word for grace in Greek is Charis (Χάρις), a given name derived from a Greek word meaning "grace, kindness, and life."
Charis is one of the Charites (Χάριτες) or "Graces", goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity and fertility; and is the wife of Hephaestus, a fire deity.

Oops! . . .there goes "grace"!

All the same, the actual word used in the Greek manuscripts is γέενναν (geennan) for Gehenna. Just as Ἰερουσαλὴμ (ierousalēm) is used for Jerusalem. I think translating γέενναν as "Hell" is like translating Ἰερουσαλὴμ as "Asgard".

 

[Cormack]

We are to hold to truth, right?

The reality is that “the truth” from the perspective of people who insist upon derailing the thread is just their systematic theology, their systematised version of the Bible is the only thing they have, and it’s not even theirs (!), it’s just something they heard from Matt Chandler, John Piper or someone else. Worse still it’s something they’re making central to their lives as though it were an idol, since they don’t know God in any meaningful way.

Even if it is the most preferable, how does it matter if it's not true?

There’s lots of good reasons to meditate on and pursue what’s the most preferable thing, since by definition the most fitting thing to be preferred is what God Himself prefers too.

People who want to have the kind of heart that God already has, or who want to act, think and feel more how He feels about humanity should prefer the most preferable.

A champion boxer doesn’t picture himself being KO’ed in the first because that’s not preferable, that’s not the kind of future he’s driving towards, rather he pushes and meditates on the most preferable thing. That’s why he’s a champion and not a scrubber.

I’m sure you too can think of good reasons why it’s valuable to allow for our thoughts and even our prayers to lean into the universal reconciliation mindset, it’s not an idea or preference to be stifled and ridiculed as satanic since it rests in the heart of God Himself. Talk about an insult to God to describe His heart in that way.

The preferableness of universal reconciliation should loom large in our thoughts and prayers not necessarily because it’s an article of our faith, but because it’s our treasured hope.

 

[Cormack]

Consider that the peak of man and Gods preference is universalism, that’s true. The truth hounds in chat don’t care much for that particular truth though because their systematic theology is taking place of preference over emulating God, in short, their theology acts like firewall to some truths.

Theologies live in your head and live to propagate themselves, if that means calling the heart of God satanic, so be it. Anything to defend and preserve the life of the systematic that’s practically possessed the host at this point.

“I want the truth!” (For over 52 pages)

“You can’t handle the truth!!!!!”

Users want to negate or deny the value of one very meaningful truth while allowing their most definitely false systematic to run riot across their headspace.

 

[Hmm]

I’m sure you too can think of good reasons why it’s valuable to allow for our thoughts and even our prayers to lean into the universal reconciliation mindset, it’s not an idea or preference to be stifled and ridiculed as satanic since it rests in the heart of God Himself. Talk about an insult to God to describe His heart in that way.

Yes, the idea that's been expressed several times in this thread that the hope that we will all eventually be united with God is evil and satanic is so disjointed and far away from the simple biblical message of God's love that there must be a very strong force behind it. That may very well be, as you say, that people have turned their own belief system, their own particular way of seeing Christianity, into an idol and that's what they worship. The truth will set us free, said Jesus. Identifying our thinking with the truth will enchain us.

 

[Cormack]

Identifying our thinking with the truth will enchain us.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[ozso]

Identifying our thinking with the truth will enchain us.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

I don't understand what that means.