Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Cormack]

I don't understand what that means.

I took it to mean that doggedly identifying your systematic with Gods absolute revelation of the truth will enslave you to the systematic, since Gods revelation or the Truth with a capital T is most certainly not our narrow systematised religion. It’s bigger, better and more mysterious.

If we confuse those thoughts for the Truth, we will end up pledging an unhealthy loyalty to a bunch of ephemeral ideas.

For anyone who’s ever had to change their mind on anything, they know how dangerous dogmatism is.

Strong dogmatism around our own opinion bars us from discover either more truth or that we are in error.

 

[Servus]

I took it to mean that doggedly identifying your systematic with Gods absolute revelation of the truth will enslave you to the systematic, since Gods revelation or the Truth with a capital T is most certainly not our narrow systematised religion. It’s bigger, better and more mysterious.

If we confuse those thoughts for the Truth, we will end up pledging an unhealthy loyalty to a bunch of ephemeral ideas.

For anyone who’s ever had to change their mind on anything, they know how dangerous dogmatism is.

Strong dogmatism around our own opinion bars us from discover either more truth or that we are in error.

That I understand. Being so set and rigid in dogma that you're unable to receive or even consider a revelation that would change or enhance your view.

 

[Cormack]

The great tragedy is that believers sold out on their rigid systemic now think that a head full of dogmatism, poor reasoning abilities and closed mindedness are the proper ways to express faith.

The more ignorant, close-minded and illogical they become the more godly they believe themselves to be.

Imagine that being the source of someone’s pride. All for the glory of “god.”

 

[Hmm]

I took it to mean that doggedly identifying your systematic with Gods absolute revelation of the truth will enslave you to the systematic, since Gods revelation or the Truth with a capital T is most certainly not our narrow systematised religion. It’s bigger, better and more mysterious.

If we confuse those thoughts for the Truth, we will end up pledging an unhealthy loyalty to a bunch of ephemeral ideas.

For anyone who’s ever had to change their mind on anything, they know how dangerous dogmatism is.

Strong dogmatism around our own opinion bars us from discover either more truth or that we are in error.

Exactly. As you say, changing your mind would be virtually impossible if you're caught up in this identification trap. If you can no longer see your thoughts as just that - as thoughts - but instead see them as being identical to The Truth, you won't be able to ever change them, as we should to as we learn more, because that would mean changing The Truth itself and would be heretical.

Losing any sense of separation between your thinking about God and the deep mystery of God means that when someone presents a different view point you see it as an attack on God and, more threateningly, an attack on yourself. Hence all the shouting down and strawmanning we often see in threads.

 

[zoidar]

... since by definition the most fitting thing to be preferred is what God Himself prefers too.

Can you explain this in another way? I don't understand what you mean. The most fitting thing and what is to be preferred are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's one sin that can be committed by individuals. So Jesus did not say there are sins that are unpardonable. He said every sin would be pardonable, except that one sin. And many misunderstand why that one sin can't be pardoned.



I think it does. Based on my understanding of what that it is that makes that one sin unpardonable.



Based on your interpretation.



No that's an assertion you made up to knock down.

However, the Bible says that hell is on earth, and that Satan is the ruler of this fallen world that's full of horrors and suffering.

Interesting to compare the handling of the unpardonable sin with Universalism.

Those who have defined the unpardonable sin have had to use their human reasoning to arrive at an answer. (the wrong answer in my opinion) Yet they level criticism at Universalists saying we have only arrived at our conclusions through human reasoning. (which isn't true either)

 

[Saint Steven]

When I wrote "Church" I meant the Early Church.

Interesting that we would recognize those as two different things. Sobering thought.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sounds convincing, though I need to get more information about this to draw any conclusions. But thanks for the info!

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers on Biblical Universalism
https://forbiddentheology.com/quotes-by-early-church-fathers-on-universalism/

 

[Cormack]

Sure, @zoidar.

Things are preferred on the basis of something else, an aim or as an expression of personal identity or taste.

I’m sure we don’t think that Gods taste or aim is for people to die. Nor would the author and source of eternal life identify with eternal death.

As an expression of personal identity God has to have a preference that matches who He is, an expression of His own qualities and identity.

What’s the most fit or most appropriate reflection of Gods personality and His qualities? We can see that in His preferences.

The most fit is what best discloses His personality.

You shared the idea that if God could go back in time to stop the fall of man he would have, but even in the hypothetical situation, why would he want that, because that desire is an expression of his perfectly loving heart.

That would be the most fitting preference for us to have too because it best matches His actual heart of love.

What’s the most fitting way for God to express His heart of love if His aim is to show mankind who He is and remove the wall of partition between us and Him?
_____________
How about most fit or preferences as an aim, that’s slightly harder to define and might get readers tangled in their theology.

If you gave me hot wings or a mind blowing curry, then you asked me for my preference in one of two drinks, either milk or vodka, what’s preferable?

If the aim is to get hammered it’s vodka, but, more likely I’m going to want relief for the heat bomb you just got me to eat.

So the preferable choice or the most fitting choice with an aim to ease my suffering is milk, not vodka.

If Gods aim is to save as many as who will believe, even all if all were willing, then universalism is His aim too. That “saviour of the world” line wouldn’t just be hyperbole.

What about as an expression of Gods heart or even the heart He wants you and I to cultivate.

The Bible teaches God loves His enemies so much He’s prepared to die on their behalf, that’s the kind of heart He expects for you and I too.

Again your idea about God possibly wanting to change the past (though I don’t exactly agree with it) would be a good way to explain who God is and where His desires reside.

 

[Saint Steven]

I used to think that it sounds nice but then I quickly realized that God’s plan is far better than any plan that I could possibly comprehend.

What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

 

[Hmm]

That's an amazing and eye-opening list of quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the subject Christian universalism. I've just skimmed through it but thought I'd post one of the shorter quotes as as sort of appetiser:

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

 

[Saint Steven]

Would I annul God's justice? To what end?

Would you prefer justice for yourself, or mercy?
If you said mercy for yourself, why would you wish "justice" on someone else?

 

[Servus]

Interesting to compare the handling of the unpardonable sin with Universalism.

Those who have defined the unpardonable sin have had to use their human reasoning to arrive at an answer. (the wrong answer in my opinion) Yet they level criticism at Universalists saying we have only arrived at our conclusions through human reasoning. (which isn't true either)

Folks seem to miss out on the explanation of why he said that.

He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.” Mark 3:30

More precisely: "the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” Mark 3:22

Obviously since forgiveness only comes from Christ, such a belief/attitude would make forgiveness impossible. I think it's more like the sin that can't be forgiven, rather than won't.

I like Eugene Peterson's paraphrase;

8-30 “Listen to this carefully. I’m warning you. There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you persist in your slanders against God’s Holy Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives, sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.” He gave this warning because they were accusing him of being in league with Evil.

But of course in universal reconciliation, those few who committed this sin would recant it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Folks seem to miss out on the explanation of why he said that.

He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.” Mark 3:30

More precisely: "the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” Mark 3:22

Obviously since forgiveness only comes from Christ, such a belief/attitude would make forgiveness impossible. I think it's more like the sin that can't be forgiven, rather than won't.

I like Eugene Peterson's paraphrase;

8-30 “Listen to this carefully. I’m warning you. There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you persist in your slanders against God’s Holy Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives, sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.” He gave this warning because they were accusing him of being in league with Evil.

But of course in universal reconciliation, those few who committed this sin would recant it.

The way I read it, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when the work of God is attributed to Satan. (which is what the scribes were doing by claiming Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub)

Why Jesus would call this the "unpardonable sin" is beyond me.

The standard explanation focuses on the "unpardonable sin" aspect rather than the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. I think that is the wrong way to define the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's a difficult passage.

This is the key verse from my perspective.

Mark 3:22 NRSV
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.”

 

[Cormack]

What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

The only way you could make that plan “better” is by providing more weenies for the roast. Any volunteers?

 

[Servus]

The way I read it, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when the work of God is attributed to Satan. (which is what the scribes were doing by claiming Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub)

Why Jesus would call this the "unpardonable sin" is beyond me.

The standard explanation focuses on the "unpardonable sin" aspect rather than the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" aspect. I think that is the wrong way to define the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's a difficult passage.

This is the key verse from my perspective.

Mark 3:22 NRSV
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.”

The paraphrase I posted above made it clear to me.

 

[Servus]

The only way you could make that plan “better” is by providing more weenies for the roast. Any volunteers?

The eternal Sunday BBQ.

 

[Cormack]

The eternal Sunday BBQ.

The BBQ that everybody wants to happen, but nobody wants to be there themselves.

At first y’all thought your invitation was lost in the mail, but here comes the Christians to say you’re going there!

I thought Christians were meant to share God news about the Kingdom, not deliver death threats from the devil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is your understanding of God's plan?
To incinerate countless billions of human souls? (the vast majority)
How could that be far better?

I don’t know, but if it is God’s plan do you think you have a better one?

 

[Saint Steven]

The only way you could make that plan “better” is by providing more weenies for the roast. Any volunteers?

LOL
Or marshmallows!
Hey, let's make 'smores!
Bring your guitar and we'll have some campfire songs.
"Kumbayah my Lord, kumbaya..." (everybody!)