Would you glorify God if Calvinism was true?

[Hazelelponi]

What is it about sin that makes us DESERVING of wrath?

Also I quoted Ezekiel 18:19-21 where God specifically stated that perfect sinlessness is not required for life, repentance is.

A couple points to be made here that may help.

First off here's a 12 page download on sin from Wayne and Systematic Theology https://www.christianforums.com/attachments/sin-systematic-theology-wayne-grudem-1-pdf.358484/

Now that we have that in hand,

"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

"The soul who sins shall die"

So, have fun with that, see how it turns out for you, but sin isn't what you think it is.

How often do you do something, just throughout the day, that you don't have to check yourself on? How many times have you tried to make sure your motivation was pure? Your thoughts not stray occasionally? Your will not get in the way somewhere?

How many days have we even loved God the way He ought to be loved, worshipped Him the way He deserves? How many moments was God truly our topmost concern?

Sin is anything against God's law in act word and deed, and is also our very nature and the first thing we recognize is that it took God in the flesh to truly live that out, because for us it's impossible - but as Christ said, with God, all things are possible.

Christ lived for us the life we could not live for ourselves, and took the punishment for us that we could not survive, so that we could have life everlasting with God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So if Calvinism is true and my children were not given the ability to repent and believe I’ll only hate God on judgment day then I’ll forget all about it? And why would there even be a judgement day if everyone is only capable of repenting and believing if God allowed them to? We’re being judged according to whether or not God enabled us or not? Because that’s what it basically boils down to. If God chose you then you can’t fail to repent and believe and if He didn’t then you’re not capable of repenting and believing. So we’re being judged according to whether we were allowed to repent and believe. If Calvinism is true.

I don't believe Calvinism is true, so I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The letter was addressed to the church of professing Christians.
Are all professing Christians necessarily elect?

Right but we’re talking about in the context that Paul was addressing them.

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people were believers and yet they are still not understanding Spiritual matters, they still do not have Spiritual discernment but the fact that they don’t have Spiritual discernment hasn’t impeded their ability to repent and believe the gospel. So apparently the natural man IS capable of repentance and believing the gospel since it is the very requirement of receiving the Holy Spirit to begin with. So these people weren’t spiritually enlightened by the Holy Spirit allowing them to repent and believe the gospel.

The Spirit had been around since Pentecost.

Understand who he was, or understand his ministry, or understand. . .?

I meant understand in the context of the verse you quoted 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[Strong in Him]

The point of my question is would you glorify God if you found out that He chose you for salvation but didn’t choose your child and because you child wasn’t chosen he or she didn’t repent and believe BECAUSE he or she wasn’t granted the ability to repent and believe by God. So your child never had any chance whatsoever of salvation because God arbitrarily chose to throw your child into the lake of fire.

This wasn't addressed to me, but it will never happen. It's not hypothetical, it's impossible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A couple points to be made here that may help.

First off here's a 12 page download on sin from Wayne and Systematic Theology https://www.christianforums.com/attachments/sin-systematic-theology-wayne-grudem-1-pdf.358484/

Now that we have that in hand,

"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

"The soul who sins shall die"

So, have fun with that, see how it turns out for you, but sin isn't what you think it is.

How often do you do something, just throughout the day, that you don't have to check yourself on? How many times have you tried to make sure your motivation was pure? Your thoughts not stray occasionally? Your will not get in the way somewhere?

How many days have we even loved God the way He ought to be loved, worshipped Him the way He deserves? How many moments was God truly our topmost concern?

Sin is anything against God's law in act word and deed, and is also our very nature and the first thing we recognize is that it took God in the flesh to truly live that out, because for us it's impossible - but as Christ said, with God, all things are possible.

Christ lived for us the life we could not live for ourselves, and took the punishment for us that we could not survive, so that we could have life everlasting with God.

Did you miss the part where He said “if a wicked man turns from his sins”? Does that imply that we have to be perfectly sinless? No it implies that if we sin we must repent.

 

[RileyG]

Well, if God predestines who is to be saved, are not the rest necessarily predestined to not be saved, by default?

No? I don’t accept Calvinism, respectfully.

 

[Clare73]

Right but we’re talking about in the context that Paul was addressing them.

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people were believers and yet they are still not understanding Spiritual matters, they still do not have Spiritual discernment but the fact that they don’t have Spiritual discernment hasn’t impeded their ability to repent and believe the gospel.

Don't confuse spiritual discernment with the Spirit himself.
Even where there is spiritual life by the Spirit, there are remainders (some more, some less) of worldly (carnal) affections.

since it is the very requirement of receiving the Holy Spirit to begin with. So these people weren’t spiritually enlightened by the Holy Spirit allowing them to repent and believe the gospel. So apparently the natural man IS capable of repentance and believing the gospel since it is the very requirement of receiving the Holy Spirit to begin with.
So these people weren’t spiritually enlightened by the Holy Spirit allowing them to repent and believe the gospel. So apparently the natural man IS capable of repentance and believing the gospel since it is the very requirement of receiving the Holy Spirit to begin with. So these people weren’t spiritually enlightened by the Holy Spirit allowing them to repent and believe the gospel.

It wasn't the natural man that repented--the natural man cannot repent (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14), it was the spiritual man of sovereign regeneration (Jn 3:3-8).

I meant understand in the context of the verse you quoted 1 Corinthians 2:14.

One doesn't have to understand the Spirit for him to operate within one.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This wasn't addressed to me, but it will never happen. It's not hypothetical, it's impossible.

Hypothetical situations don’t have to be possible.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hypothetical situations don’t have to be possible.

Forgive me, I don't see the point of the question, then.

There is no pain, tears or suffering in heaven - and no sin. So even if we were to witness God throwing someone into hell (he doesn't do that), and even if we recognised them and knew that we had once loved them, we would not be angry, sorrowful or think it unfair and complain against God.

But since none of that will happen, it doesn't matter.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Did you miss the part where He said “if a wicked man turns from his sins”? Does that imply that we have to be perfectly sinless? No it implies that if we sin we must repent.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Why? Because the verses you quoted says repent of ALL sins, which is like saying "be ye perfect even as my Father in Heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) or "go, and sin no more."

We can't by the way, we are not perfect. Avoiding sin isn't simple when we use God's standard and not our own.

The only one who was able to do that is Jesus.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Don't recall saying anything about branches prior to post #71 regarding fruitless branches.

However, the vine in the gospels is equivalent to the kingdom in the gospels, both of which contain tares, fruitless branches,
and is also equivalent to the professing church in the epistles which contains some who are not born again.

Ok I’m just going to stop you right there because in verse 1 Jesus specifically tells us exactly what the vine is.

“I AM THE TRUE VINE” that’s what He says in verse 1 right before saying “every branch IN ME” in verse 2. The term “IN CHRIST” is used numerous times in the new testament and not once is it used in reference to unbelievers. Being in the church and being IN CHRIST are two completely different things. What you’re referring to is being in the church which is made up of wheat and tares but nowhere in the new testament are tares ever mentioned as being IN CHRIST. There is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. If anyone is IN CHRIST he is a new creation.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons THROUGH Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB 1995

Can you present any other passage that says that someone who is IN CHRIST is not a believer?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Forgive me, I don't see the point of the question, then.

There is no pain, tears or suffering in heaven - and no sin. So even if we were to witness God throwing someone into hell (he doesn't do that), and even if we recognised them and knew that we had once loved them, we would not be angry, sorrowful or think it unfair and complain against God.

But since none of that will happen, it doesn't matter.

The point of the question is to see how many people would praise God if they found out that He condemns people to the lake of fire without giving them any chance to repent and believe and be saved. Now I could see many who would still praise Him if He condemned people they didn’t know but what if it was your child who was condemned to the lake of fire without being given any opportunity for salvation? Consider Jesus’ words in Matthew 10.

“For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭35‬-‭37‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I love Jesus above all because of who He is, by that I mean not because He is God but because of His character. Kind, patient, loving, slow to anger, quick to forgive, sacrificed Himself to an excruciating death so that we can be saved. That’s the Jesus I love.

But if you replace that character with the Calvinist character of Christ all of that changes significantly because all of those qualities are completely absent for those who weren’t arbitrarily chosen before creation. To those people He isn’t kind, He isn’t patient, He isn’t slow to anger, He isn’t quick to forgive, He doesn’t forgive at all actually, and He didn’t sacrifice Himself for them. According to Calvin’s theology they can’t even repent of their sins and believe the gospel because man can only do so if he was arbitrarily chosen before creation. So it basically boils down to when God said inny minny miny moe if your child wasn’t chosen that’s just too bad. That’s quite a different character than the loving, just, and impartial character of Jesus that I believe in.

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's immortality of the human spirit.

However, it is referring to not dying because of one's father's sin, but dying only because of one's own sin. (Eze 18:17).
That's mortality of the human body.

Human bodies die because of sin (Ro 6:23).
Human Spirit are immortal, and do not die.

No that doesn’t line up with what the passage says.

““But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This cannot be referring to a physical death because EVEN THO HE WAS WICKED IF HE REPENTS HE WILL LIVE. Wicked people are not without sin. If a wicked person repents he will live. So the illustration of death and life is referring to the death of the soul and everlasting life. It cannot refer to a physical death because the wicked man already has sin and both the wicked and the righteous will physically die but the man who repents WILL NOT DIE.

Also our spirit is dead until we come to Christ and our soul can die in hell.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Why? Because the verses you quoted says repent of ALL sins, which is like saying "be ye perfect even as my Father in Heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) or "go, and sin no more."

We can't by the way, we are not perfect. Avoiding sin isn't simple when we use God's standard and not our own.

The only one who was able to do that is Jesus.

I don’t understand how you don’t see the problem with your interpretation here. Let’s try this one more time “if the WICKED MAN repents of all his sins”. Umm if a WICKED man repents he has already sinned so he can never be perfect until he receives Christ’s atonement. This is before Christ’s crucifixion so they won’t be perfect until they receive the gospel in Abraham’s Bosom and accept Christ. If they had to repent of their wicked ways and BE PERFECT in order to enter Abraham’s Bosom, then Abraham’s Bosom would be completely empty because nobody can repent and live the rest of their life perfectly without sin. The way you’re interpreting the passage a wicked man wouldn’t be without sin even if he did repent and never sinned again, because he was wicked in the first place. And yet the passage says if the wicked man repents he will live.

 

[Hazelelponi]

without giving them any chance to repent and believe and be saved.

That's where you're wrong. Everyone has a chance, people are following their own wills, and God allows it to a certain extent while remaining intimately involved with His creation.

People are morally responsible for their own choices. No one is here making choices they don't desire to make. No one is a puppet to anything but their own desires in their unsaved state.

The problem as it stands, is that no one wills to do good.

"The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5

"1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.". Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's where you're wrong. Everyone has a chance, people are following their own wills, and God allows it to a certain extent while remaining intimately involved with His creation.

People are morally responsible for their own choices. No one is here making choices they don't desire to make. No one is a puppet to anything but their own desires in their unsaved state.

The problem as it stands, is that no one wills to do good.

"The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5

"1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.". Ephesians 2:1-10

You quoted Genesis 6 to demonstrate that no “one wills to do good” but Noah was a righteous man who walked with God. And 8 people were spared from the flood. You also had Able who found favor with God, Enoch walked with God and by faith was taken up so that he should not see death and it wasn’t until 1000 years after creation that God saw that all mankind was becoming evil.

 

[Fervent]

Depends on if He decided to make me glorify Him, I suppose. Don't know how to vote.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You quoted Genesis 6 to demonstrate that no “one wills to do good” but Noah was a righteous man who walked with God. And 8 people were spared from the flood. You also had Able who found favor with God, Enoch walked with God and by faith was taken up so that he should not see death and it wasn’t until 1000 years after creation that God saw that all mankind was becoming evil.

Who do you think saved believers are but people who "found favor with God"?

The righteousness we are given is His righteousness however, it's not our own. God's righteousness is a gift, and this is something New Testament Scriptures makes very clear. Noah wasn't saved because Noah was some awesome guy, it was because God decided to bestow His favor upon him.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Messiah, my Savior, the Savior of all Israel, saved the Old Testament saints as well as the New Covenant believers. The Covenant of Grace is the overarching covenant we have all been under, new testament and old, it just wasn't fully revealed until the time of Christ, and it was revealed in Christ's body.

That's what the verses about setting the captives free were partially concerning.. Old Testament saints went to paradise, or otherwise called Abrahams Bosom in Rabbinic literature, until Christ's death. (That's the good part of Sheol)

After the Ressurection in the New Testament Hades was used in every instance thereafter only in reference to the wicked dead.

Jesus was Noah's Savior the same as He is mine. The righteousness God saw in Noah was the favor bestowed, a mercy, a kindness. GRACE.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—" Ephesians 2:8-9

Hebrews 11:7. The verse reads: "By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household".

 

[com7fy8]

The point of the question is

Indeed . . . and we have quite a lot of discussion addressing anything but "The point", in this thread. lolololololololol

It might not be fun to answer about if it was your child. This loads the question quite a lot, and surely can be what we do not want to deal with.

how many people would praise God if they found out that He condemns people to the lake of fire without giving them any chance to repent and believe and be saved.

The way you are now . . . if you found out . . . yeah, I see your point. But you do not know how you are going to become, by then. I would plan, in any case, on how God perfects us in His love > 1 John 4:17 > and then how we will see things, including where our *attention* will be going.

"without giving them a chance" is not what I would say is part of how Calvinists represent themselves. But each Calvinist would need to speak for one's own self; I am sure individual Calvinists are not alike in all details . . . not cookie-cut to be exactly the same way, like ones seem to want to cut them. But ones can have a way, it seems to me, of bunching people and making them all alike in each bunch. I think this is lazy, not making an effort to really get to know each one, and discover how and why someone believes something. After all . . . I understand . . . my character can have a lot to do with what my motives are and why I might want to believe some item.

Now I could see many who would still praise Him if He condemned people they didn’t know but what if it was your child who was condemned to the lake of fire without being given any opportunity for salvation?

You seem to me to be loading the question. Make it about a child, versus simply about who and how God really is. A child can be an idol . . . right? So, the issue could really be if I have made my child an idol so that I would hate God for judging my child . . . with or without a chance.

If God really has the all-control . . . that would be the way it is. So, I would not let it be about a child.

If God really is all-controlling and all-good and so perfectly beautifully wonderful in love . . . it is good to know this . . . so I am not fooled into looking to my own self for any necessary ability to get my own self to do what God wants. If it is really all about His own ability and no less than His own ability . . . this, I would say, is good to know.

"No one is good but One, that is, God," Jesus says in Matthew 19:17 and in Mark 10:18 and in Luke 18:19.

Consider Jesus’ words in Matthew 10.

ok - - - done . . . and considering other words of Jesus.

I can use the Bible to support that God is in absolute all-control and this is His "destiny" > this is how He simply is; He can not change Himself from all which is true about Him. And I can fit everything with this.

And I know how to argue autonomous free will.

In any case, it is important to know who really has the ability to choose and do what is right . . . and who doesn't, of one's own self and goodness, have the character to choose and initiate doing what is really good.

In processing this . . . don't make a child an idol, and do not make your own free will an idol capable of what only God can do.

I would say it would be fascinating to really get to know each person so you rightly understand where the person is coming from, with one's stand on this. I find that very humble people can believe they have no control, really, and other humble ones believe God does not force His way on people's choices.

Be humble and kind, in any case.

On the other hand > some very judgmental people want to judge God . . . either way. And ones will demand you do what they say God wants . . . since you have free will, while others demand you will do what they say since you are not predestined if you don't do what they say you would be predestined to do!!

I have been swayed by Romans 9:21 and by John 6:65.

 

[Hoping2]

Christ’s sacrifice is another thing that in my opinion doesn’t seem to match with the character of God if He were to arbitrarily choose people for salvation and condemnation because you have this random choice of who will be saved and who will be condemned which seems to indicate a lack of love for the condemned, then this unfathomably generous sacrifice for the random people who were chosen to be saved. It just seems inconsistent to me.

Yeah, He died for the sins of the world !
Calvinists say He only died for the chosen at random, which makes the scripture saying otherwise, a lie.