Would you glorify God if Calvinism was true?

[Clare73]

Christ’s sacrifice is another thing that in my opinion doesn’t seem to match with the character of God if He were to arbitrarily choose people for salvation and condemnation because you have this random choice of who will be saved and who will be condemned which seems to indicate a lack of love for the condemned, then this unfathomably generous sacrifice for the random people who were chosen to be saved. It just seems inconsistent to me.

Unless there is a reason for the "inconsistency" (Ro 9:22-23).

 

[Clare73]

You don't have to be a "Calvinist" to know that.
"The Holy Spirit bears witness (himself testifies) with our spirit that we are God's children" (Ro 8:15-16) born of God, not just born of man (Jn 1:13).
Doctrine is the content of saving faith, while Jesus is the object of saving faith.
There is no saving faith without faith in Biblical doctrine (1 Tim 4:16).

Except there the doctrine of evanescent grace which specifically teaches that some people are actually given grace and think they’re saved but later fall away from the faith.

Is that Biblical doctrine?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Precisely. . .

All mankind are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), condemned already (Jn 3:18) and enemies of God (Ro 5:19).
God owes his enemies nothing but justice.
That he chooses to give some, but not all, his mercy is not unjust, because he does not owe anyone mercy.
Those are the eternal facts of God's divine wisdom in accomplishing his plan to show forth his glory.

Judgment day is about moral law and its claim of obedience on all mankind.
No one passes the test of obedience on Judgment Day.
All those who through unbelief in Christ do not have his obedience standing in their stead will be justly condemned for their disobedience.

Those are the facts he has revealed to us in his word written.

He's God. . .we're not.
We don't have a choice regarding the facts of the matter.

Ok so you’re saying that everyone is condemned because of what Adam did 6,000 years ago that they had no control over.

But God said in Ezekiel 18

““Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ NASB 1995

According to verses 19-20 the guilt of sin is not imputed onto others. And according to verse 21 sinless perfection isn’t necessary to live. What is necessary is repentance.

How do you reconcile Ezekiel 18:19-20 with Romans 5:19?

““Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Both of these passages are true so how do you explain each of them in such a way that they don’t contradict each other?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is that Biblical doctrine?

No its actually a band aid doctrine designed to cover up the holes in Calvin’s theology created by passages that indicate that believers can fall away and lose their salvation. Passages like James 5 :19-20 John 15:2 and John 15:6.

 

[Clare73]

Well we’re talking about whether God was influenced in any way in His decision of whose names will be written in the book of life. My answer is that God wrote the names in the book of life according to His foreknowledge of those who would abide in Christ and endure to the end. Unfortunately I can’t quite say what she believes because I don’t understand it.

That is what she is denying.

No one abides in Christ and endures to the end unless God chooses and enables him to do so.
All others do not because they cannot.
With choice to salvation comes enablement (Jn 6:65) to believe (and to abide in Christ).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Unless there is a reason for the "inconsistency" (Ro 9:22-23).

Right just like 2 Peter 2:9 says.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Ok so you’re saying that everyone is condemned because of what Adam did 6,000 years ago that they had no control over.

Precisely. . .we are now all "by (fallen) nature, objects of wrath (Ep 2:3), enemies of God (Ro 5:9), condemned already (Jn 3:18).

But God said in Ezekiel 18

““Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’
When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.” ‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ NASB 1995

According to verses 19-20 the guilt of sin is not imputed onto others.
And according to verse 21 sinless perfection isn’t necessary to live. What is necessary is repentance.
How do you reconcile Ezekiel 18:19-20 with Romans 5:19?
“For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
Both of these passages are true so how do you explain each of them in such a way that they don’t contradict each other?

Very good. . .

Actually, sin/guilt is not inherited, from one's father (Eze 19:20), but it is imputed by God (Ro 5:17, 12-14, 18-19). . .which imputation is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness by God, as stated in Ro 5:18-19: "just as trespass. . .so also righteousness (is imputed); just as disobedience. . .so also obedience (is imputed).

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is what she is denying.

No one abides in Christ and endures to the end unless God chooses and enables him to do so.
All others do not because they cannot.
With choice to salvation comes enablement (Jn 6:65) to believe (and to abide in Christ).

Right, thank you for confirming my explanation of Calvin’s doctrine of regeneration.

 

[Clare73]

Right, thank you for confirming my explanation of Calvin’s doctrine of regeneration.

Sovereign regeneration (Jn 3:3-8) is the only Biblical solution to being
by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), condemned already (Jn 3:18), and enemies of God (Ro 5:19) who are
unable to accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them (1 Co 2:14).

 

[Clare73]

Right just like 2 Peter 2:9 says.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Keeping in mind that the "any" were the "you" to whom he was writing, they were not the world.

 

[Clare73]

No its actually a band aid doctrine designed to cover up the holes in Calvin’s theology created by passages that indicate that believers can fall away and lose their salvation. Passages like James 5 :19-20 John 15:2 and John 15:6.

There are tares in the kingdom (Mt 13:24-30) and fruitless branches on the vine (Jn 15:1).
Neither are true believers, so they fall away or are cut off.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So if Calvinism is true and my children were not given the ability to repent and believe I’ll only hate God on judgment day then I’ll forget all about it? And why would there even be a judgement day if everyone is only capable of repenting and believing if God allowed them to? We’re being judged according to whether or not God enabled us or not? Because that’s what it basically boils down to. If God chose you then you can’t fail to repent and believe and if He didn’t then you’re not capable of repenting and believing. So we’re being judged according to whether we were allowed to repent and believe. If Calvinism is true.

First off I think you're looking at it wrongly.

As you likely know I'm Calvinistic in theology, plus I lost my daughter before I was saved. She died unsaved, and unbaptized.

What I do, is trust God, and His judgement, for myself and my children.

In the end, does it matter? I mean, we love God, we admit what we are before Him, which is a sinner deserving God's wrath.

No one deserves mercy, not you, not me. God grants it - it's a gift. We are just His creation, and if we worship Him we worship a God whose judgements are just, whether it's his judgement on our loved ones or not. We either trust HIM, or we pass up worshipping Him.

 

[Clare73]

Yeah you didn’t address the problem with your explanation in comparison to what’s actually stated in 1 Peter 1:1-2. The passage says “those who reside as aliens who were chosen according to His foreknowledge”. So the passage is stating that it was His foreknowledge that influenced His decision of who He was going to predestine.

Actually, his foreknowledge is of his decree, which was his decision.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sovereign regeneration (Jn 3:3-8) is the only Biblical solution to being
by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), condemned already (Jn 3:18), and enemies of God (Ro 5:19) who are
unable to accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them (1 Co 2:14).

So then God’s statements in Ezekiel 18 about repentance resulting in life are misleading?

Two questions about 1 Corinthians 2:14

1 were the people Paul was telling this to the elect?
2 did they understand the Spirit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

First off I think you're looking at it wrongly.

As you likely know I'm Calvinistic in theology, plus I lost my daughter before I was saved. She died unsaved, and unbaptized.

What I do, is trust God, and His judgement, for myself and my children.

In the end, does it matter? I mean, we love God, we admit what we are before Him, which is a sinner deserving God's wrath.

No one deserves mercy, not you, not me. God grants it - it's a gift. We are just His creation, and if we worship Him we worship a God whose judgements are just, whether it's his judgement on our loved ones or not. We either trust HIM, or we pass up worshipping Him.

What is it about sin that makes us DESERVING of wrath?

Also I quoted Ezekiel 18:19-21 where God specifically stated that perfect sinlessness is not required for life, repentance is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are tares in the kingdom (Mt 13:24-30) and fruitless branches on the vine (Jn 15:1).
Neither are true believers, so they fall away or are cut off.

That’s where the problem comes in because Jesus said that the branches are on Him and you say that they weren’t. Who am I supposed to believe here?

 

[Clare73]

So then God’s statements in Ezekiel 18 about repentance resulting in life are misleading?

You think that is referring to immortality?

Two questions about 1 Corinthians 2:14

1 were the people Paul was telling this to the elect?

The letter was addressed to the church of professing Christians.
Are all professing Christians necessarily elect?

2 did they understand the Spirit?

The Spirit had been around since Pentecost.

Understand who he was, or understand his ministry, or understand. . .?

 

[Clare73]

That’s where the problem comes in because Jesus said that the branches are on Him and you say that they weren’t. Who am I supposed to believe here?

Don't recall saying anything about branches prior to post #71 regarding fruitless branches.

However, the vine in the gospels is equivalent to the kingdom in the gospels, both of which contain tares, fruitless branches,
and is also equivalent to the professing church in the epistles which contains some who are not born again.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You think that is referring to immortality?

I think it’s referring to being sent to Abraham’s Bosom instead of Hades.

 

[Clare73]

I think it’s referring to being sent to Abraham’s Bosom instead of Hades.

That's immortality of the human spirit.

However, it is referring to not dying because of one's father's sin, but dying only because of one's own sin. (Eze 18:17).
That's mortality of the human body.

Human bodies die because of sin (Ro 6:23).
Human Spirit are immortal, and do not die.