Would you glorify God if Calvinism was true?

[Hoping2]

Those are not guaranteed manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They were given to the early church as special confirmations of the truth of the gospel.
Many have the Holy Spirit without such manifestations.

I disagree.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I disagree.

Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to the test.

Neither God nor God's people are specimens to be examined.

No one need jump through hoops to prove anything, people have God's word. So be a Berean, ask God to give personal understanding while seeking His face. Desire only what is right and true and from God.

^^ Sermon Audio

The Spurgeon Library | The Hand of God in the History of a Man

www.spurgeon.org

^^^ Sermon Text Same sermon as the audio.

 

[David Lamb]

You quoted Genesis 6 to demonstrate that no “one wills to do good” but Noah was a righteous man who walked with God. And 8 people were spared from the flood. You also had Able who found favor with God, Enoch walked with God and by faith was taken up so that he should not see death and it wasn’t until 1000 years after creation that God saw that all mankind was becoming evil.

Yes and we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God's grace is His undeserved favour.

 

[Strong in Him]

The point of the question is to see how many people would praise God if they found out that He condemns people to the lake of fire without giving them any chance to repent and believe and be saved.

Thank you for explaining.
But I don't believe God condemns people to the lake of fire. So, to me, it reads like, "would you praise God if you found out that he did something that he doesn't do?"

I love Jesus above all because of who He is, by that I mean not because He is God but because of His character. Kind, patient, loving, slow to anger, quick to forgive, sacrificed Himself to an excruciating death so that we can be saved. That’s the Jesus I love.

Me too.

But if you replace that character with the Calvinist character of Christ all of that changes significantly because all of those qualities are completely absent for those who weren’t arbitrarily chosen before creation.

Maybe. But Christ isn't defined by Calvinists, and I don't accept Calvinism.

To those people He isn’t kind, He isn’t patient, He isn’t slow to anger, He isn’t quick to forgive, He doesn’t forgive at all actually,

Difficult to see how they believe that and still accept Scripture.

According to Calvin’s theology they can’t even repent of their sins and believe the gospel because man can only do so if he was arbitrarily chosen before creation.

That's why I don't accept Calvinism.

 

[Joseph G]

So if Calvinism is true and my children were not given the ability to repent and believe I’ll only hate God on judgment day then I’ll forget all about it? And why would there even be a judgement day if everyone is only capable of repenting and believing if God allowed them to? We’re being judged according to whether or not God enabled us or not? Because that’s what it basically boils down to. If God chose you then you can’t fail to repent and believe and if He didn’t then you’re not capable of repenting and believing. So we’re being judged according to whether we were allowed to repent and believe. If Calvinism is true.

Any criteria you come up with to justify hating God is rooted in evil. It is you sitting on your self-made tin throne presuming to judge your Creator and demand He bow down before *you* . As exactly inspired by the first to presume to judge God - Lucifer/Satan Himself. And then lie about Him and perpetually tempt all of us to doubt His goodness ever since.

The very point of Jesus' mission here was to challenge us to concede that our righteousness (and ability to exercise mercy, grace, compassion and love) MUST exceed or at least match God's or else we are already doomed - just like Truth Himself (The Word) says we are.

So yes, does the Potter have rights over the clay - to make one for honor and another for dishonor? Yes! And we *must*, as an expression of our faith, profess that Jesus has sufficiently revealed the purity of God's love through His sacrifice to our *finite* minds - to warrant us declaring before all men that God is good and that we revere His Name above all - even our own lives.

Consider this. If *anyone* has had more right to judge God as unrighteous it is Jesus Christ - the ONLY one of us Who did not deserve God's full wrath. Yet Jesus kept His Word to His Father and to all of us - He held His faith even in the midst of the most cruel torture of body and mind on that cross - in Hell Himself - and made HIS final declaration of faith before all the earthly and heavenly hosts (and especially to the Accuser who tempted Him to bitterness to His last breath) - "FATHER, into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."

Jesus grants those of us who choose to receive His gift of faith to do likewise - enduring through it all till *our* last breath by doggedly following the voice of our Great Shepherd all the way through the valley of the shadow of death and beyond.

Having said all that, here is why we can ultimately have peace about it all while we're here. I guarantee that whoever hears the Gospel and chooses to believe will be saved - because He says so. He says He desires that none should perish - and He doesn't lie.

If we can't harmonize His Word and reconcile what appears to be opposing doctrines - tough cookies - He can and does in His Mind because He is the Author - and we ain't.

Therefore, if God indeed purposely blinds anyone's eyes preventing repentance - they are still responsible because they are somehow willfully choosing to remain blind and in darkness.

Why? It's not just their presumption to judge God alone. That is just their outward justification to hide the core motive of a desperately wicked heart - that only God Himself can see:

John 3:19-21 NKJV

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

This is why, when they do stand before Him, they still won't be able to con Him, and us, by touting their good works even done in His Name. Because He sees a heart devoted to eternally hating Pure Love Himself - even while gazing upon Him in His full glory. They will even be gnashing their teeth at Him (and all of us His children) from the pits of Hell - just like their father there with them.

Evil enough?

Can we therefore let our Righteous Father reign - and live in gratitude for His mercy and grace towards us, our brethren, and those who will come to Him through our testimonies of His goodness to them? Enough for us to abandon perpetual wrangling in our minds and eagerly beseech our Great Shepherd to teach us how to be fishers of men and enjoy the fruits thereof?

God bless! (And I mean that... towards all).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes and we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God's grace is His undeserved favour.

Some translations say grace and some say favor.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Any criteria you come up with to justify hating God is rooted in evil. It is you sitting on your self-made tin throne presuming to judge your Creator and demand He bow down before *you* . As exactly inspired by the first to presume to judge God - Lucifer/Satan Himself. And then lie about Him and perpetually tempt all of us to doubt His goodness ever since.

No God is not righteous, holy, and just, simply because He is the Creator, He is righteous, holy, and just because He acts accordingly with the definitions of those words. And Paul’s words in Romans 9:23 indicates that doesn’t exercise His will upon the vessels of wrath unjustly. And my hate for this fictional character of God isn’t evil at all because it isn’t God’s true character.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No God is not righteous, holy, and just, simply because He is the Creator, He is righteous, holy, and just because He acts accordingly with the definitions of those words. And Paul’s words in Romans 9:23 indicates that doesn’t exercise His will upon the vessels of wrath unjustly. And my hate for this fictional character of God isn’t evil at all because it isn’t God’s true character.

Your assuming fallen man in his fallen state has the capacity to judge the actions of God and determine whether, according to God's own standards, a God who knows the ends from the beginnings when a fallen sinful man doesn't, God is acting justly.

When Scripture says that God decrees and determines and does and even so determines and decrees and does with the people's he created then I have to try and understand that all God does is just even though I might not always know what he's doing and why, but I have to trust that whatever God is doing is for my ultimate good since I am one of His people.

If we aren't just trusting Him, what are we doing anyway? Playing pretend?

At some point we have to trust in a very sovereign and real God, realizing we are the weaker vessels. I do know it's a frightening prospect, but Scripture tells us that FEAR is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again BNR32FAN. Peace to you my brother in Christ.

I just thought I’d take a poll on how many Christians would glorify God if they arrived in heaven only to find out

I stopped your quote here to say, when I come before God and find out all the things I was wrong about in this life...I will most certainly glorify God regarding it. I have confidence I know who God is and that the truth, the things I was wrong about, does not create a divine dissonance, logically, within His divine characteristics.

find out that Calvinism is true

I am not a Calvinist proper. What I mean by this is I am not formally one now nor was I raised one. However, I am a Protestant and think Calvinism carries many truths. Even though I might disagree about some of their theological conclusions (especially High Calvinist ones).

This being said, if I get to heaven and find out that all High Calvinist doctrine is true, I don't think it is, then I would willfully still submit to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To God the Father all glory and honor.


All that being said, I believe High Calvinists in particular don't give enough consideration to the divine dissonance that is created in their logic and theology. By divine dissonance I mean, the tension or clash between two or more characteristics of God that have been incorrectly conceived that result in a disharmonious relationship between those characteristics of God.

As an example, if you are aware of the Supralapsarian order of divine decrees (which most High Calvinists would hold). The Supralapsarian model would seem to create a number of logical conclusions that create divine dissonance within the characteristics of God. Something the Infralapsarian model of divine decrees does not do.

As even Karl Barth wrote... "The Supralapsarians so exalted the sovereignty of God above everything else that they did not sufficiently appreciate the danger of trying to solve the problem of evil and to rationalize the irrational". The rub of the High Calvinists and the problem of evil being just one of those logical, theological conclusions that create divine dissonance in some of the High Calvinist theology.

Above all else, Keep seeking God's truth

 

[Clare73]

Some translations say grace and some say favor.

Grace is unmerited favor

 

[Clare73]

No that doesn’t line up with what the passage says.

““But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Not too sure why we are litigating OT law when the OC is obsolete (Heb 8:13), no one inherits the guilt of and dies because of his ancestors.

And all mankind dies, because no one can observe all God's statutes to God's satisfaction.
In the context of Eze 18:1-20 that the chain of inherited guilt can be broken, the above states that the power of guilt accumulated in a person's life can be overcome ("he will surely live"), which refers to physical death, that "no one shall die for (by inheriting) his father's sin" (Eze 18:17).

This cannot be referring to a physical death because EVEN THO HE WAS WICKED IF HE REPENTS HE WILL LIVE. Wicked people are not without sin. If a wicked person repents he will live. So the illustration of death and life is referring to the death of the soul and everlasting life. It cannot refer to a physical death because the wicked man already has sin and both the wicked and the righteous will physically die but the man who repents WILL NOT DIE.

Also our spirit is dead until we come to Christ and our soul can die in hell.

The human spirit is immortal (2 Co 5:1-9).
When the tent of his spirit (body of Paul) is destroyed, he (his spirit ) is with the Lord (2 Co 5:8).

I'm thinking I'm not too interested in litigating the sovereignty of God and the free will of man at this time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So yes, does the Potter have rights over the clay - to make one for honor and another for dishonor? Yes! And we *must*, as an expression of our faith, profess that Jesus has sufficiently revealed the purity of God's love through His sacrifice to our *finite* minds - to warrant us declaring before all men that God is good and that we revere His Name above all - even our own lives.

Romans 9 isn’t talking about election to individual salvation it’s talking about election to service and the corporate election of salvation being extended to the gentiles. The verse you’re quoting is about election to service.

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭17‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now let’s examine why God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God chose to use Pharaoh as a demonstration of His power and glory because He already knew that Pharaoh would not comply unless he was forced to. So God hardened Pharaoh’s heart in order to inflict all 10 plagues upon Egypt so that the Egyptians wouldn’t just allow the Israelites to leave they would beg them to leave and even offer them articles of treasure in order to get rid of them. According to the context here, I suspect that if God hadn’t hardened Pharaoh’s heart that Pharaoh would’ve complied before the Egyptians were willing to give up their articles of treasure which is not what God wanted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Therefore, if God indeed purposely blinds anyone's eyes preventing repentance - they are still responsible because they are somehow willfully choosing to remain blind and in darkness.

He did this to the unbelieving Jews in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion, much like what He did to Pharaoh.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your assuming fallen man in his fallen state has the capacity to judge the actions of God and determine whether, according to God's own standards, a God who knows the ends from the beginnings when a fallen sinful man doesn't, God is acting justly.

When Scripture says that God decrees and determines and does and even so determines and decrees and does with the people's he created then I have to try and understand that all God does is just even though I might not always know what he's doing and why, but I have to trust that whatever God is doing is for my ultimate good since I am one of His people.

If we aren't just trusting Him, what are we doing anyway? Playing pretend?

At some point we have to trust in a very sovereign and real God, realizing we are the weaker vessels. I do know it's a frightening prospect, but Scripture tells us that FEAR is the beginning of wisdom.

Are you suggesting that God’s actions defines the definitions of the words that are used to describe Him? Because if that’s the case then you must also conclude that it would be just for man to act in the same manner and apply the same definitions of those words. For example if God is just in punishing people in the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations then according to God’s actions defining the definitions of the word just then we must also conclude that man can be considered to be just in his actions if he were to punish people for failing to meet impossible explanations. Either God’s character is defined by the words that are used to describe Him or the words that are used to define Him are defined by His character. So which is it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Greetings again BNR32FAN. Peace to you my brother in Christ.


I stopped your quote here to say, when I come before God and find out all the things I was wrong about in this life...I will most certainly glorify God regarding it. I have confidence I know who God is and that the truth, the things I was wrong about, does not create a divine dissonance, logically, within His divine characteristics.


I am not a Calvinist proper. What I mean by this is I am not formally one now nor was I raised one. However, I am a Protestant and think Calvinism carries many truths. Even though I might disagree about some of their theological conclusions (especially High Calvinist ones).

This being said, if I get to heaven and find out that all High Calvinist doctrine is true, I don't think it is, then I would willfully still submit to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To God the Father all glory and honor.


All that being said, I believe High Calvinists in particular don't give enough consideration to the divine dissonance that is created in their logic and theology. By divine dissonance I mean, the tension or clash between two or more characteristics of God that have been incorrectly conceived that result in a disharmonious relationship between those characteristics of God.

As an example, if you are aware of the Supralapsarian order of divine decrees (which most High Calvinists would hold). The Supralapsarian model would seem to create a number of logical conclusions that create divine dissonance within the characteristics of God. Something the Infralapsarian model of divine decrees does not do.

As even Karl Barth wrote... "The Supralapsarians so exalted the sovereignty of God above everything else that they did not sufficiently appreciate the danger of trying to solve the problem of evil and to rationalize the irrational". The rub of the High Calvinists and the problem of evil being just one of those logical, theological conclusions that create divine dissonance in some of the High Calvinist theology.

Above all else, Keep seeking God's truth

The point I’m trying to make here is that God is in fact just. That’s the whole point of this thread. What I’m trying to demonstrate is that if God does not act in accordance of the definition of the words that are used in the scripture to define His character and nature then that changes everything because He then becomes a God who’s character IS NOT as defined by the words used to define His character and nature and we have just inaccurately described who He really is. I know that’s not the case so my intention is to display the errors in defining God in such a way because it is slanderous to the truth of His character and nature.

 

[Clare73]

Are you suggesting that God’s actions defines the definitions of the words that are used to describe Him? Because if that’s the case then
you must also conclude that it would be just for man to act in the same manner and apply the same definitions of those words.

Who made that rule?

God told Pharaoh to let his people go. . .and then God bound Pharaoh's heart in its own hardness (Ex 4:21) so that he was unable to obey.

Does man get to act in the same manner?

Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?

For example if God is just in punishing people in the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations

People are in the lake of fire because of the sin of Adam imputed (Ro 5:17, 12-14) to them, which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ being imputed to the redeemed (Ro 5:18-19).

then according to God’s actions defining the definitions of the word just then we must also conclude that man can be considered to be just in his actions if he were to punish people for failing to meet impossible explanations. Either God’s character is defined by the words that are used to describe Him or the words that are used to define Him are defined by His character. So which is it?

Sez who? . . .who made that goofy rule?

God cannot be conscripted by goofy human rules.

 

[Joseph G]

The point I’m trying to make here is that God is in fact just. That’s the whole point of this thread. What I’m trying to demonstrate is that if God does not act in accordance of the definition of the words that are used in the scripture to define His character and nature then that changes everything because He then becomes a God who’s character IS NOT as defined by the words used to define His character and nature and we have just inaccurately described who He really is. I know that’s not the case so my intention is to display the errors in defining God in such a way because it is slanderous to the truth of His character and nature.

Good luck with judging God, dude. Wiping the dust from my feet and moving on. Though keeping you in my prayers!

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

Are you suggesting that God’s actions defines the definitions of the words that are used to describe Him?

God is the definition yes..

Failing to meet impossible expectations

You're correct God gives us impossible expectations - but He met them for us, so, not so impossible after all, just impossible for us.

All God did was take the floor out from under you so you would have no choice but to cling to Him as your only hope of salvation.

And there, there clinging to Christ with no other hope is where you see the power of the living God in full display.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not too sure why we are litigating OT law when the OC is obsolete (Heb 8:13), no one inherits the guilt of his ancestors.

This has nothing to do with the Old Covenant. This is about how God justly judges people both in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Well, for starters, no one can observe all God's statutes to God's satisfaction.

And as the passages states nobody has to. Hence “if the WICKED MAN REPENTS HE WILL NOT DIE”. Does a wicked man sound like sinless perfection to you?

In the context of Eze 18:1-20 that the chain of inherited guilt can be broken, the above states that the power of guilt accumulated in a person's life can be overcome ("he will surely live"), which refers to physical death, that "no one shall die for (by inheriting) his father's sin" (Eze 18:17).

The passage says that the penalty of guilt can be overcome by repentance.

The human spirit is immortal (2 Co 5:1-9).
When the tent of his spirit (body of Paul) is destroyed, he (his spirit ) is with the Lord (2 Co 5:8).

I said our spirit is dead until we come to Christ. Had Paul come to Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who made that rule?

God told Pharaoh to let his people go. . .and then God bound Pharaoh's heart in its own hardness (Ex 4:21) so that he was unable to obey.

Does man get to act in the same manner?

Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?

First of all God hardened Pharaohs heart because He knew that Pharaoh would not allow the Israelites to leave except under compulsion. This is why God hardened Pharaohs heart.

“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬