Would you glorify God if Calvinism was true?

[BNR32FAN]

Does man get to act in the same manner?

Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?

Would it be just for the US government to burn people at the stake for failing to count every grain of sand on the earth? If not, why?

 

[BNR32FAN]

People are in the lake of fire because of the sin of Adam imputed (Ro 5:17, 12-14) to them, which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ being imputed to the redeemed (Ro 5:18-19).

Romans 5 doesn’t say anything about God imputing Adam’s sin on anyone.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression RESULTING in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there RESULTED condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬

Death came to all BECAUSE ALL SINNED. From the one transgression RESULTED in condemnation. Through one man’s disobedience many were MADE SINNERS.

There’s nothing that says anything about us being guilty or judged for Adam’s sin anywhere in this passage nor does it say anything about God imputing the guilt of Adam’s sin onto us. We inherited Adam’s sinful nature which is really just the result of free will.

 

[Hoping2]

Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to the test.

Neither God nor God's people are specimens to be examined.

No one need jump through hoops to prove anything, people have God's word. So be a Berean, ask God to give personal understanding while seeking His face. Desire only what is right and true and from God.

What has changed between the earliest church and today ?
Nothing.
Why do you think the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Ghost changed ?

 

[Paleouss]

The point I’m trying to make here is that God is in fact just.

Amen!

Your point is like the one I made about one's theological logic that creates divine dissonance within the characteristics of God.

Peace to you BNR32FAN

 

[Clare73]

First of all God hardened Pharaohs heart because He knew that Pharaoh would not allow the Israelites to leave except under compulsion. This is why God hardened Pharaohs heart.

And the part about Pharaoh hardening his own heart (Ex 7:13-14, 22, 8:15, 19, 32, 9:7, 34-35)?
God bound him to his own hardening of heart so that Pharaoh was unable to soften it.

 

[DennisF]

And the part about Pharaoh hardening his own heart (Ex 7:13-14, 22, 8:15, 19, 32, 9:7, 34-35)?
God bound him to his own hardening of his heart so that Pharaoh was unable to soften it.

This is an instance of the free-will & determinism (or sovereignty of God) issue. Logically speaking, God can both be the determiner of the state of Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh the exerciser of free will in hardening his own heart. See the Free Will and Determinism postings.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 5 doesn’t say anything about God imputing Adam’s sin on anyone.

Au contraire. . .

You don't understand Ro 5:17, nor Ro 5:18-19, nor Ro 5:14, where
the imputation of Adam's sin to those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christs righteousness to those of Christ,
as presented in Ro 5:18-19.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,
because all sinned for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So, which is it. . .did they sin or not?

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
Where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 5:13).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died (Ro 5:14).
Of what did they die when they had not personally sinned?

They died of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17), which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to us in Ro 5:18-19.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression RESULTING in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So then as through one transgression there RESULTED condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,

That is the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam.

even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬

That is the corresponding imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ,
which correspondence is twice contrastingly paralleled in Ro 5:18-19; i.e., "just as. . .so also."

Death came to all BECAUSE ALL SINNED.

But all did not personally sin between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against,
for "where there is no law, there is no sin" (Ro 5:13), and yet they all died anyway.

So of what sin did they die?

From the one, transgression RESULTED in condemnation. Through one man’s disobedience many were MADE SINNERS.

Precisely. . . the many were made sinners by the imputation of Adam's sin to them, just as many are made righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to them (Ro 5:18-19).
The imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-14, causing the death of those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against) is the answer to the question of "why all died between and Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and cause their deaths."

There’s nothing that says anything about us being guilty or judged for Adam’s sin anywhere in this passage

It is the answer to the question posed by the passage; i.e., of what sin did they all die between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against (Ro 5:13).

nor does it say anything about God imputing the guilt of Adam’s sin onto us. We inherited Adam’s sinful nature which is really just the result of free will.

That is precisely what it is presenting in Ro 5:12-16, what it is stating in Ro 5:17, and what it is paralleling in Ro 5:18-19.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sez who? . . .who made that goofy rule?

God cannot be conscripted by goofy human rules.

The scriptures describe God’s character. They reveal to us who He is. I don’t understand why you would have a problem with the words that are used in scripture describing His character.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God is the definition yes..

Ok then if God’s actions define the words that are used in the scriptures to describe His character, like the words “just” for example, and God does condemn people to the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations then one could logically conclude that if I were to handcuff someone to a cinder block and throw them into the ocean and tell them if you free yourself you can live then that would be just?

 

[Clare73]

The scriptures describe God’s character. They reveal to us who He is. I don’t understand why you would have a problem with the words that are used in scripture describing His character.

The following still remains unaddresed (post #116):

God told Pharaoh to let his people go. . .and then God bound Pharaoh's heart in its own hardness (Ex 4:21) so that he was unable to obey.

Does man get to act in the same manner?

Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're correct God gives us impossible expectations - but He met them for us, so, not so impossible after all, just impossible for us.

All God did was take the floor out from under you so you would have no choice but to cling to Him as your only hope of salvation.

What you’re describing here isn’t Calvinism. In Calvinism no one can come to Christ unless The Father enables them. Which is based on John 6:44 which is an obsolete passage I might add because that drawing changed when Christ was crucified according to John 12:32.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

The following still remains on the table:

God told Pharaoh to let his people go. . .and then God bound Pharaoh's heart in its own hardness (Ex 4:21) so that he was unable to obey.

Does man get to act in the same manner?

Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?

Youre not understanding me at all. Im talking about the definition of the word JUST. Does the definition of the word JUST define God’s character or does God’s character define the word Just?

 

[Clare73]

Youre not understanding me at all. Im talking about the definition of the word JUST. Does the definition of the word JUST define God’s character or does God’s character define the word Just?

Let's first clear what remains on the table (post #116, #130).

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is an instance of the free-will & determinism (or sovereignty of God) issue. Logically speaking, God can both be the determiner of the state of Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh the exerciser of free will in hardening his own heart. See the Free Will and Determinism postings.

In Exodus 3 God specifically tells Moses that He already knows that Pharaoh will not let the Israelites leave except under compulsion. Then He tells Moses that He’s going to inflict the 10 plagues upon Egypt then Pharaoh will let them go and the Egyptians will even willingly give them articles of treasure just to get rid of them.

“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Au contraire. . .

You don't understand Ro 5:17, nor Ro 5:18-19, nor Ro 5:14, where
the imputation of Adam's sin to those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christs righteousness to those of Christ,
as presented in Ro 5:18-19.

“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did death reign thru the one? He just told us in verse 12.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING THIS VERSE?

“So then as through one transgression there RESULTED condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience THE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Verses 18-19 DO NOT SAY ANYTHING WAS IMPUTED, verse 18 says through one transgression there RESULTED condemnation to all men. Condemnation was the result of Adam’s sin. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT THEY ARE CONDEMNED BECAUSE ADAM’S SIN WAS IMPUTED ON THEM.

READ VERSE 19

FOR BY THRU ONE MAN’S DISOBEDIENCE THE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS.

So death spread to all because ALL SINNED because thru Adam’s sin ALL WERE MADE SINNERS.

THERE’S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT SIN BEING IMPUTED TO ANYONE. GOD DOESN’T CONDEMN PEOPLE TO THE LAKE OF FIRE BECAUSE OF SOMETHING ADAM DID 6,000 YEARS AGO THAT NOBODY HAD ANY CONTROL OVER. IMPUTED SIN IS THE MOST ABSURD AND OUTRIGHT SLANDEROUS ACCUSATION TOWARDS GOD’D CHARACTER.

Everyone who knows anything about this passage can clearly see that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature NOT the guilt of His sin. You can keep copying and pasting these verses until Christ returns but what you can’t do is actually DEMONSTRATE where these verses say ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE GUILT OF ADAM’S SIN BEING IMPUTED ON ANYONE.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam.

The many were made sinners which is why they resulted in condemnation. Death came to all because all sinned. Notice that Paul DID NOT SAY DEATH CAME TO ALL BECAUSE ADAM SINNED. This is precisely why you refuse to accept the definition of the word JUST, because what you’re describing here IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF JUST. It is NOT JUST to punish people for something someone else did 6,000 years ago THAT THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH NOR COULD THEY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

 

[Hazelelponi]

What you’re describing here isn’t Calvinism. In Calvinism no one can come to Christ unless The Father enables them. Which is based on John 6:44 which is an obsolete passage I might add because that drawing changed when Christ was crucified according to John 12:32.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What I'm describing is still Calvinist.

People aren't going to know whether God opened their hearts to understand the message (Luke 24:45 and Acts 16:14)

How are you going to know? We approach everyone as it they are elect or will be the elect of God. Anyone curious about the faith is potentially someone drawn by God.

Do you think Calvinists share the Gospel differently than someone who believes in free will? It's a Gospel invitation the same...

It's just an invitation to Christ that doesn't depend on self for anything, salvation is the work of Christ alone.

 

[Johan2222]

I just thought I’d take a poll on how many Christians would glorify God if they arrived in heaven only to find out that Calvinism is true and their children or their loved ones were thrown into the lake of fire because they weren’t arbitrarily chosen before creation?

Anyone who “arrives in heaven” is going to do so because they know God is righteous and they believe his word.

The unbelieving are not so;

Revelation 21:8 ASV
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Anyone who has loved ones that are going to the lake of fire is going with them, because light has no communion with darkness, 2 Corinthians 6.14 and those who are going to the lake of fire are going there because they are not of the light.

Those who are of the light cannot bear those who are evil.

Revelation 2:2 ASV
I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;

Seeing it is the evil who are going to the lake of fire, if therefore you love them, you are going with them.

If you think God does things “arbitrarily”, you do not believe God‘s word.

Proverbs 16:4 RSV
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So, which is it. . .did they sin or not?

Yes they sinned Paul specifically said death came to all because all sinned.

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
Where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 5:13).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died (Ro 5:14).
Of what did they die when they had not personally sinned?

Wrong you’re misquoting the passage. It doesn’t say that there was no law between Adam & Moses. It says until the law sin was in the world. God telling Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge was the first law which is when sin began.

“for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Then when Cain killed Able we find out that murder was already a sin long before Exodus 20.

“but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4‬:‭5‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If there no law between Adam & Moses why is God warning Cain not to sin? And why is Cain cursed by God for killing his brother?

“Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭13‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭18‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭20‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭20‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭26‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No law between Adam & Moses?

They died of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17), which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to us in Ro 5:18-19.

Again you keep on quoting Romans 5:17 and completely ignoring VERSE 12. NOWHERE DOES VERSE 17 SAY THAT THEY DIED BECAUSE ADAM’S SIN WAS IMPUTED ON THEM.

“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

WHY DID THEY DIE? VERSE 12 TELLS US EXACTLY WHY THEY DIED.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN BECAUSE ALL SINNED.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

WHY DID ALL SIN?

“For as through the one man’s disobedience THE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So what the scriptures actually say is that thru Adam’s disobedience all men were made sinners and because all men became sinners death came to all men. The passage says absolutely nothing about God punishing people for Adam’s sin.

So let me ask you even tho I know it’ll just be a waste of time but just for the sake of everyone else reading the thread, do you think it would be “JUST” for you to spank your second born child because your first born child stole from you before your second child was even born?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Anyone who “arrives in heaven” is going to do so because they know God is righteous and they believe his word.

The unbelieving are not so;

Revelation 21:8 ASV
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Anyone who has loved ones that are going to the lake of fire is going with them, because light has no communion with darkness, 2 Corinthians 6.14 and those who are going to the lake of fire are going there because they are not of the light.

Those who are of the light cannot bear those who are evil.

Revelation 2:2 ASV
I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;

Seeing it is the evil who are going to the lake of fire, if therefore you love them, you are going with them.

If you think God does things “arbitrarily”, you do not believe God‘s word.

Proverbs 16:4 RSV
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

So when you become a believer you turn your back on your loved ones instead of trying to bring them to Christ? Is that what you think 2 Corinthians 6:14 is saying? No I think Paul is talking about getting married to an unbeliever. I’m not sure if you realize this but nobody is born a believer. So what do you do when your child is born? Abandon it according to 2 Corinthians 6:14?

Do I think God does things arbitrarily? No absolutely not, but I do think that’s what Calvinism teaches.

Perhaps you misunderstood my post but my position is that God chose people for salvation before creation according to His foreknowledge of those who would abide in Christ and endure to the end because of their willingness to comply with God’s calling in the gospel. Do you disagree with this position?