Works Relation to Salvation

[DamianWarS]

Just what am I avoiding? I simply don't understand your comment.

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

 

[Gary K]

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

That's such an obvious answer I couldn't believe you asked the question. No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

Now you are trying to imply something that I never wrote. Why would you take the liberty to make such an implication?

What is your point in asking questions like that? I will answer your questions when you answer a question everyone has avoided answering. Where in scripture does God require Gentiles to keep the old covenant Sabbath that was given only to Israel?

Trying to imply? You bet I am. And you are demonstrating the truth of what I'm saying by refusing to discuss the implications of my comments. Sorry to have to trap you, but truth is very precious.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's such an obvious answer I couldn't believe you asked the question. No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

Which is greater spiritual life or physical life?

 

[Gary K]

Which is greater spiritual life or physical life?

Spiritual life, by so far it;s no contest.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

Seriously, you've got to stop with this charade. I personally have answered this question innumerable times. Why do you pretend that you haven't received a response? Just because you reject the main and plain meaning of Scripture doesn't mean it's not true.

Hi spark, the real charade are the answers of no value you and others have given on the subject. Where in all of scripture does it tell Gentiles and/or Gentile nations that we are subject to keep any day. You cannot prove from scripture or history that anyone before God gave the Sabbath to those who crossed the Red Sea.

It took the Israelites several weeks to get from Egypt to across the Red Sea. If the Sabbath was being practiced by anyone why didn't God stop them in their flight to rest on the Seventh- days during their escape?

Yes, scripture tells us that God made the Sabbath for man. That bit of scripture, in no way, compels anyone it has to be kept. Much of the World's population, past and present, have never heard of such a thing as all the Sabbath requirements. Another thing, I do not believe anyone who tells us they "keep" the Sabbath are really truthful according to Is 58:13 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Tell me I am wrong.

 

[Gary K]

Hi spark, the real charade are the answers of no value you and others have given on the subject. Where in all of scripture does it tell Gentiles and/or Gentile nations that we are subject to keep any day. You cannot prove from scripture or history that anyone before God gave the Sabbath to those who crossed the Red Sea.

It took the Israelites several weeks to get from Egypt to across the Red Sea. If the Sabbath was being practiced by anyone why didn't God stop them in their flight to rest on the Seventh- days during their escape?

Yes, scripture tells us that God made the Sabbath for man. That bit of scripture, in no way, compels anyone it has to be kept. Much of the World's population, past and present, have never heard of such a thing as all the Sabbath requirements. Another thing, I do not believe anyone who tells us they "keep" the Sabbath are really truthful according to Is 58:13 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Tell me I am wrong.

I'll tell you you're wrong. There is a special blessing associated with the Sabbath. To have sundown woship and watch the sunset on Friday night is a very special feeling to know that the Sabbath is here and we can spend a very restful day with God is something no Sunday keeper can experience as God has placed a very special blessing on those who keep all of His commandments.

 

[DamianWarS]

Spiritual life, by so far it;s no contest.

Christ reminds us in Mat 12:12a "How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!" This is a segue to say his very next words "Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” (12b)

Is it too far to include how much more value is the spiritual from the physical? Do you reject the spiritual charge with this focus of sheep stuck in pits? If people are more valuable than animals and if the spiritual life is more valuable than the physical then what in fact is the actionable goodness that we may break rest for?

1. Saving physical sheep from physical distress (the physical/literal example)
2. Saving people in physical distress (the greater example)
3. Saving spiritual sheep in spiritual pits (the spiritual/implied example)

In light of viewing spiritual life more valuable than the physical these should be indisputable products of Christ's words in v12 ranked least to greatest.

 

[Gary K]

Christ reminds us in Mat 12:12a "How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!" This is a segue to say his very next words "Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” (12b)

Is it too far to include how much more value is the spiritual from the physical? Do you reject the spiritual charge with this focus of sheep stuck in pits? If people are more valuable than animals and if the spiritual life is more valuable than the physical then what in fact is the actionable goodness that we may break rest for?

1. Saving physical sheep from physical distress (the physical/literal example)
2. Saving people in physical distress (the greater example)
3. Saving spiritual sheep in spiritual pits (the spiritual/implied example)

In light of viewing spiritual life more valuable than the physical these should be indisputable products of Christ's words in v12 ranked least to greatest.

The same thing Jesus said and did. I don't see how that is very hard to understand.

 

[DamianWarS]

The same thing Jesus said and did. I don't see how that is very hard to understand.

You're going to have to clarify that more. I'm not certain what point you're trying to make, or what question you're answering.

 

[Gary K]

You're going to have to clarify that more. I'm not certain what point you're trying to make, or what question you're answering.

You said that you wondered how much more value spiritual rest is than physical rest. I didn't think my answer was that difficult to understand ferom the context of all the questions you asked at the end of your post.

 

[Icyspark]

Hi spark, the real charade are the answers of no value you and others have given on the subject. Where in all of scripture does it tell Gentiles and/or Gentile nations that we are subject to keep any day. You cannot prove from scripture or history that anyone before God gave the Sabbath to those who crossed the Red Sea.

Hi Bob S,

In my thread titled, "Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian," I delineate the Scriptural authorization for the Sabbath and how the Gentiles are not excluded from the benefits which God promised to those who keep it holy.

The Ten Commandments were codified at Mount Sinai, but you certainly realize that they existed well before then. While the Sabbath is introduced "in the beginning" (Gen. 2:1-3), you seem inclined to reject and deny this obvious origin. Why? Because it doesn't fit your predetermined outcome. You insist on a command for the Sabbath, yet why is it you don't insist on commands prohibiting adultery or murder? You know from your constant interactions in discussion forums that these commandments from the decalogue were known and understood as sin without there being any corresponding revealed command. This doesn't appear to trouble you, but it should.

It took the Israelites several weeks to get from Egypt to across the Red Sea. If the Sabbath was being practiced by anyone why didn't God stop them in their flight to rest on the Seventh- days during their escape?

This is just another attempt at finding a hook on which to hang your doubt.

First of all, this isn't a contention I make. It is my belief that after being in bondage for 400+ years that the Israelites no longer remembered the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Second, God reestablished His holy day when He saw the time was right, even before the codification of His Ten Commandment covenant (see Exodus 16 and the story of manna).

Yes, scripture tells us that God made the Sabbath for man. That bit of scripture, in no way, compels anyone it has to be kept. Much of the World's population, past and present, have never heard of such a thing as all the Sabbath requirements. Another thing, I do not believe anyone who tells us they "keep" the Sabbath are really truthful according to Is 58:13 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Tell me I am wrong.

Nice. Thus you illustrate the fact that without my even having to share the specific text which contradicts your self-imposed belief system, you knew exactly what refuted your position. Contrary to your repeated attempts to portray the Sabbath as being only for the Jews, Jesus flips your imposed narrative right side up and says, "The Sabbath was made for HUMAN BEINGS." Don't you find it rather brazen to reject the words of Jesus and in fact rewrite what He says to make it say, "The Sabbath was made for HUMAN BEINGS given only to the Jews." This is what you do and then you think you can claim that Sabbatarians are in the wrong?

Tell me I am wrong.

You're wrong.

In the past I've seen this argument framed around the idea of holiness (as in no one can keep the Sabbath holy). The idea apparently being that it's impossible to keep the Sabbath the way that God commands. This is such a bizarre contention as it illustrates the god of the critic as being a tyrant and sadist who gives impossible to obey commands and then who punishes his creatures for their inevitable failure to comply.

But back to keeping the Sabbath holy. Did you know that the Bible says, "Make every effort to ... be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." If you are holy, then how easy do you think it will be to keep the Sabbath holy? If Jesus Christ is in you, do you think He can give you the ability to not only resist the devil, but to defeat him?

I pray this helps

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[DamianWarS]

You said that you wondered how much more value spiritual rest is than physical rest. I didn't think my answer was that difficult to understand ferom the context of all the questions you asked at the end of your post.

The problem is a said a whole lot more too that you've chosen to not comment on. I've had to reduce my comments to single questions to get a reply and still you're deflecting.

In response to viewing the spiritual over the physical than is not saving spiritual life/spiritual distress more valuable than saving physical life/physical distress

 

[Gary K]

The problem is a said a whole lot more too that you've chosen to not comment on. I've had to reduce my comments to single questions to get a reply and still you're deflecting.

In response to viewing the spiritual over the physical than is not saving spiritual life/spiritual distress more valuable than saving physical life/physical distress

OF couse. What else could I have meant? Go back and read your questions to me and it will become obvious to you.

 

[DamianWarS]

OF couse. What else could I have meant? Go back and read your questions to me and it will become obvious to you.

You've previously mentioned that it's not ok to break Sabbath rest to tend to spiritual life, but your responses here are to the contrary hence my need for clarification.

if we can agree spiritual life is more valuable than physical and people are more valuable than sheep then we can conclude from Christ's statement from Mat 12:11-12 that we may break sabbath rest to tend to spiritual life and this is lawful.

 

[Gary K]

You've previously mentioned that it's not ok to break Sabbath rest to tend to spiritual life, but your responses here are to the contrary hence my need for clarification.

if we can agree spiritual life is more valuable than physical and people are more valuable than sheep then we can conclude from Christ's statement from Mat 12:11-12 that we may break sabbath rest to tend to spiritual life and this is lawful.

You're going to have to prove that because I don't believe it so I wouldn't say it.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

In my thread titled, "Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian," I delineate the Scriptural authorization for the Sabbath and how the Gentiles are not excluded from the benefits which God promised to those who keep it holy.

The Ten Commandments were codified at Mount Sinai, but you certainly realize that they existed well before then.

Hi spark, You outlined what you believe about Gentiles and the Sabbath without any proof that Gentile nations ever given or heeded any of the laws Israel had to deal with. So, I assume you are not privy to any historical or Biblical knowledge of God ever asking anyone besides Israel to observe special days.

While the Sabbath is introduced "in the beginning" (Gen. 2:1-3), you seem inclined to reject and deny this obvious origin. Why? Because it doesn't fit your predetermined outcome.

Hold on there, partner. It is you that "assumes" something that is not there. It was God who rested from work He had done creating all that He did. It doesn't establish a precedence and you of all people should not assume that it does unless you cling to the writings of your prophet who added her own thoughts whenever necessary to coincide with her belief system.

You insist on a command for the Sabbath, yet why is it you don't insist on commands prohibiting adultery or murder?

I insist on a command given only to one nation, Israel. Adultery and murder are part of Jesus Law of Love. I am to love others like Jesus loves us. Would Jesus murder or commit adultery to our fellow human beings??

You know from your constant interactions in discussion forums that these commandments from the decalogue were known and understood as sin without there being any corresponding revealed command.

I agree that anything dealing with morality has been known from the beginning. Ritual laws are instituted by God as He sees fit.

This doesn't appear to trouble you, but it should.

What I believe should trouble you spark. Your preconceived beliefs do not allow for any other truths.

You know from your constant interactions in discussion forums that these commandments from the decalogue were known and understood as sin without there being any corresponding revealed command. This doesn't appear to trouble you, but it should.

All nations had and have a code of ethics and other codes. Israel had their code that no other nation had. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. The ne covenant Jesus initiateed at Calvary had a law in it concerning keeping days I wouod honor my Savior and keep such days. There is nothing to indicate Jesus was/is interested in having mankind observe a any day. To believe, as you most certainly do, that unless I somehow keep Sabbath or loose my eternal home is a ludicrus idea. No law no guilt

This is just another attempt at finding a hook on which to hang your doubt.

First of all, this isn't a contention I make. It is my belief that after being in bondage for 400+ years that the Israelites no longer remembered the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

How could they remember something that was never imposed on any man?

Second, God reestablished His holy day when He saw the time was right, even before the codification of His Ten Commandment covenant (see Exodus 16 and the story of manna).

Reestablished??? How can something be reestablished that had never been established in the first place? Show some scripture to help me believe you have a point.

Nice. Thus you illustrate the fact that without my even having to share the specific text which contradicts your self-imposed belief system, you knew exactly what refuted your position. Contrary to your repeated attempts to portray the Sabbath as being only for the Jews, Jesus flips your imposed narrative right side up and says, "The Sabbath was made for HUMAN BEINGS." Don't you find it rather brazen to reject the words of Jesus and in fact rewrite what He says to make it say, "The Sabbath was made for HUMAN BEINGS given only to the Jews." This is what you do and then you think you can claim that Sabbatarians are in the wrong?

Most every translation says made for man, yet you choos to use the term human beings. This tell me that you are fishing. I notice that you didn't address the fact that those words are not in any way a command. The only people that were commanded to observe a day were those that came out of Egypt and thei posterity. That command ended a Calvary where Jesus ratified the new covenant to Israel.

You're wrong.

So spark, are you telling us that you are able to keep the Sabbath the way God intended?

In the past I've seen this argument framed around the idea of holiness (as in no one can keep the Sabbath holy). The idea apparently being that it's impossible to keep the Sabbath the way that God commands. This is such a bizarre contention as it illustrates the god of the critic as being a tyrant and sadist who gives impossible to obey commands and then who punishes his creatures for their inevitable failure to comply.

I believe that is somewhat like what your prophet taught

But back to keeping the Sabbath holy. Did you know that the Bible says, "Make every effort to ... be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." If you are holy, then how easy do you think it will be to keep the Sabbath holy? If Jesus Christ is in you, do you think He can give you the ability to not only resist the devil, but to defeat him?

I have never seen those word spark . coul you inlighten me with some scripture.

 

[DamianWarS]

You're going to have to prove that because I don't believe it so I wouldn't say it.

Sure, I asked:

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

And you answered:

That's such an obvious answer I couldn't believe you asked the question. No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

You can follow the links to confirm. There must be a miscommunication. For clarity's sake would you restate your position so I'm not guessing?

 

[Gary K]

Sure, I asked:

And you answered:

You can follow the links to confirm. There must be a miscommunication. For clarity's sake would you restate your position so I'm not guessing?

No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

 

[DamianWarS]

No, we cannot break the Sabbath rest to do that. That is part and parcel of resting on Sabbath.

This is feeling intentionally cryptic. I'm trying to understand your position and now we've come full circle and you're intentionally repeating yourself which causes me to doupt sincerity as well as character which in turn discredits your position and feels like deflecting.

Let's not bring it to that, when I ask for clarity I'm asking you to expand on what was previously stated with less ambiguity I'm not asking you to use the verbatim words copy and pasted again which shouldn't have to be stated to be understood.

If you don't want to answer the question or you don't know how to just say so (or stop replying), I have greater respect for someone who admits to their limits or bows out, than I do with someone who seems to be trying some sort of filibuster move motivated at fatiging the conversation.