Works Relation to Salvation

[Studyman]

It was the Judaizers teaching Torah to the Galatians. Get your story straight. I truly believe you would write anything to try to make a point. Sorry, but I actually know what Paul wrote so don't try to put out falsehood and expect me to believe it.

Again the Error, because you are on a Jihad against God's Commandments, you have separated Paul's words in Galatians from EVERY other word of Paul, and the Jesus "of the Bible" and the Prophets. You preach the Pharisees were teaching God's Laws, AKA "Torah".

But here is what the scriptures actually teach.

Jer. 23:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Jer. 14: 13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Is. 29: 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Rom. 10: 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So yes, you and Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and "Many" who come in Christ's Name, preach to the world that the Pharisees were teaching the Torah. And you are free to preach whatever you want.

But when a person is freed from the doctrines of your religion and considers what the Holy scriptures actually teach, we find clearly that the Pharisees were not teaching the Torah. Zacharias and Simeon and Anna were. Jesus was. Paul was. But the Pharisees were not. Of course, I know you will not be persuaded otherwise because Jesus said so.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nevertheless, it seems expedient to "test the spirits" and show the Brethren what the Holy Scriptures actually teach about what the Pharisees were teaching the Galatians.

 

[Studyman]

Ask Paul. He was the one who told them salvation didn't come by works of the Torah, it came by God's grace.

Again the Error. In man's Jihad against the Torah, they refuse to consider all of Paul's and Jesus' words. Because you have been deceived into believing and are promoting the falsehood that the Pharisees, AKA, " The Circumcision" was teaching the Torah, how can you understand what Paul is saying? He even tells you in Galatians 5 "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump".

In your religion, does this not mean that a lie like "The Pharisees were teaching the Torah" corrupts the entire person? And if not, what does it mean?

Do you believe God's Grace is given to men who reject the "way of the Lord", and create their own religion, with their own doctrines which are contrary to what is actually written?

I agree that there is no Law that I can obey, that will give me life. The scriptures are clear on that. Bringing the Goat to the Levite Priest, although required "Till the Seed should come", did not take away sins. It was always God's Mercy and Grace all along.

But Paul did also say, " Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So in your religion, is teaching falsehoods about the Word of God, like "The Pharisees were teaching the Torah" a work of the Flesh? Or a work of the Spirit?

Paul taught the Galatians
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

So then Buddhist and nice sun worshipers are "Of the Spirit"? Or is there other things Paul, the Jesus "of the Bible" and their God and my God instructed His People to do?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Could these "Good Works" be the 10 Commandments that God created beforehand that we should walk in them? But wait, you call them the "ministration of Death"?

The Christ of the Bible tells those who rejected His Gospel in the Law and Prophets.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

And again, this same Christ after becoming a man;

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But who really believes in this Jesus?

 

[Studyman]

In your eyes Paul was teaching falsehood. Too bad that you have to deny him in order to uphold your preconceived ideas

No, I don't believe that. What I have found, and am demonstrating, is that what you preach Paul teaches, that is the falsehood, not what Paul actually teaches. And this to uphold popular pre-conceived ideas, like "The Pharisees were teaching the Torah" or, "Jesus came to free us from God's Laws", or that God worked to gain Israel's Trust and then those who trusted Him He saved from the bondage of Egypt only to place 613 laws impossible to keep on their necks, then lied to them by telling them they could keep them, and then killed them by the thousands when they didn't.

It is these pre-conceived ideas which seem to be the problem, and they are exposed when a man considers ALL of what is written, like Paul did. I believe it is expedient to point them out, even though I know many will not be persuaded.

So, I suppose you believe you know it all.

Oh, goodness no. I don't know it all. But I do know that the Pharisees were not teaching the Torah. And I do know that God's Instruction in Righteousness is not the "Ministration of Death", and I do know that the "Yoke of Bondage" that plagued the "Fathers" was not God's Laws, but their own religion they created from the deception of their own heart.

Impossible or not they were miserable law keepers and Jesus had to come to this Earth to save them. Even if they keep all of the laws that in itself would not have saved them. Abraham was saved by God's grace, not because of what he did. Israel was aware of how to be saved. Moses wrote how Abraham was saved.

Well Abraham and Caleb and Joshua and Zacharias and Simeon and Anna were, as you preach, "miserable law keepers". But according to the Word of God, most of Israel was not. I will just post a couple of Scriptures to show this, but I know, as Jesus said, you will not be persuaded by them.

Ez. 20: 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

But of Abraham this same God said;

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And of Caleb this same God said;

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

And of Zacharias;

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So once again, we have your religion along with its religious philosophies, and we have the actual Scriptures which teach almost the exact opposite.

Jesus saw this coming and warned me of this very thing;

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

"ALL" Scriptures are said to be inspired by God, not man. So for me, they can be trusted. But this world's religions, not so much. I hope you might consider this as well.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5
That covers just about everything of what Jesus expects.

"against such there is no law". But there is a Law against teaching falsehoods about God and His Inspired Word and promoting manmade religious doctrines which cause those who adopt them to "Transgress God's Commandments". And without the First and Greatest commandment, men's definition of and works of "Love and joy and peace" will not get anyone into the Kingdom.

What I am pointing out is the difference between the philosophies of this world's religions, that you have adopted and are now promoting, and what the Christ "of the Bible" and the Scriptures His Father Inspired actually says.

It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done for us.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

It's not about your adopted religion, or the philosophies promoted therein, it's about what the Christ "of the Bible" actually teaches.

 

[Bob S]

No, I don't believe that. What I have found, and am demonstrating, is that what you preach Paul teaches, that is the falsehood, not what Paul actually teaches. And this to uphold popular pre-conceived ideas, like "The Pharisees were teaching the Torah" or, "Jesus came to free us from God's Laws", or that God worked to gain Israel's Trust and then those who trusted Him He saved from the bondage of Egypt only to place 613 laws impossible to keep on their necks, then lied to them by telling them they could keep them, and then killed them by the thousands when they didn't.

God's laws to only Israel included killing animals as sacrifice for the sins of those that came out of Egypt. That was a law of God. Is anyone heeding that command today? That is a question, see the question mark? In matt 5 Jesus said he came to FULFIL the Law but not one jot or one tittle could be erased from the Law until everything was completed. Apparently, you have an issue with what Jesus said there in Matt because you are disobeying the sacrificing of animals and don't give me the ending of sacrificing because Jesus became our sacrifice. That would be taking jots and tittles from the Law. We cannot have it both ways studyman. Jesus commanded that nothing could be removed from the Law until all was fulfilled. See the word until and all? That means either Jews can be set free from the Law (Torah) because He set them free from all the Law at Calvery where He ratified the new covenant with His own blood or He didn't and Jews are still under ALL the dictates of the old covenant. That is something for you to study. And may I add once again that Gentiles were never under the dictates of the old covenant.

It is these pre-conceived ideas which seem to be the problem, and they are exposed when a man considers ALL of what is written, like Paul did. I believe it is expedient to point them out, even though I know many will not be persuaded.

We are not persuaded because you are teaching heresy, the doctrines of some very uneducated people like the SDA prophet.111111111

Well Abraham and Caleb and Joshua and Zacharias and Simeon and Anna were, as you preach, "miserable law keepers". But according to the Word of God, most of Israel was not. I will just post a couple of Scriptures to show this, but I know, as Jesus said, you will not be persuaded by them.

Ez. 20: 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

But of Abraham this same God said;

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And of Caleb this same God said;

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

And of Zacharias;

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So once again, we have your religion along with its religious philosophies, and we have the actual Scriptures which teach almost the exact opposite.

Jesus saw this coming and warned me of this very thing;

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

"ALL" Scriptures are said to be inspired by God, not man. So for me, they can be trusted. But this world's religions, not so much. I hope you might consider this as well.




"against such there is no law". But there is a Law against teaching falsehoods about God and His Inspired Word and promoting manmade religious doctrines which cause those who adopt them to "Transgress God's Commandments". And without the First and Greatest commandment, men's definition of and works of "Love and joy and peace" will not get anyone into the Kingdom.

What I am pointing out is the difference between the philosophies of this world's religions, that you have adopted and are now promoting, and what the Christ "of the Bible" and the Scriptures His Father Inspired actually says.





Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

It's not about your adopted religion, or the philosophies promoted therein, it's about what the Christ "of the Bible" actually teaches.

You keep accusing me of teaching manmade doctrines yet you never address 2Cor3:6-11. I do teach that no man is under the 10 commandments because Paul wrote that we aren't. Another thing, Gentiles were never under the 10 commandments and no one has come up to bat and indicated when that changed and we are now under the old covenant 10 commandments. Some even believe we have to keep special days like new moons, festivals, and kosher foods

You are very good at accusing, but are batting 0 in in actually debating what I write.

 

[Gary K]

God's laws to only Israel included killing animals as sacrifice for the sins of those that came out of Egypt. That was a law of God. Is anyone heeding that command today? That is a question, see the question mark? In matt 5 Jesus said he came to FULFIL the Law but not one jot or one tittle could be erased from the Law until everything was completed. Apparently, you have an issue with what Jesus said there in Matt because you are disobeying the sacrificing of animals and don't give me the ending of sacrificing because Jesus became our sacrifice. That would be taking jots and tittles from the Law. We cannot have it both ways studyman. Jesus commanded that nothing could be removed from the Law until all was fulfilled. See the word until and all? That means either Jews can be set free from the Law (Torah) because He set them free from all the Law at Calvery where He ratified the new covenant with His own blood or He didn't and Jews are still under ALL the dictates of the old covenant. That is something for you to study. And may I add once again that Gentiles were never under the dictates of the old covenant.



We are not persuaded because you are teaching heresy, the doctrines of some very uneducated people like the SDA prophet.111111111

You keep accusing me of teaching manmade doctrines yet you never address 2Cor3:6-11. I do teach that no man is under the 10 commandments because Paul wrote that we aren't. Another thing, Gentiles were never under the 10 commandments and no one has come up to bat and indicated when that changed and we are now under the old covenant 10 commandments. Some even believe we have to keep special days like new moons, festivals, and kosher foods

You are very good at accusing, but are batting 0 in in actually debating what I write.

Bob, I have a question for you. I asked it earlier in the thread but you missed it.

Was the Torah inspired by God?

 

[Studyman]

You are very good at accusing, but are batting 0 in in actually debating what I write.

I just wanted to share a perspective that is different from the one you and Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn and "many" who come in Jesus Name promote. A perspective of one who believes "ALL" of the Holy Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not who simply uses a verse here and there to promote their manmade doctrines, like "The Pharisees were teaching the Torah" or "God Laws are the Yoke of bondage" the Galatians Gentiles were trying to "return to", or Jesus has already returned with His Army and Fulfilled "ALL that was Prophesied about Him.

Jesus already told me you would not be persuaded by Scriptures, even if HE is the one who Inspired them.

Nevertheless, it seems prudent for the brethren to point some of these popular but false religious talking points out.

 

[Bob S]

Bob, I have a question for you. I asked it earlier in the thread but you missed it.

Was the Torah inspired by God?

Absolutely, but God's laws to Israel were not primarily with issues of salvation. He gave the Torah like their constitution. It had many civil laws to govern them. It had spiritual laws to guide them and it had laws dealing with morality. Read Ex 19:5-6

 

[Gary K]

I don't get your meaning as to why helping someone in need on the Sabbath is being a hypocrite when Jesus says it is lawful.

Sure, then just lock your doors and close the blinds on the Sabbath, its the same effect.

That is what you said that I replied to. You seem to forget I have agreed that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

Absolutely, but God's laws to Israel were not primarily with issues of salvation. He gave the Torah like their constitution. It had many civil laws to govern them. It had spiritual laws to guide them and it had laws dealing with morality. Read Ex 19:5-6

So you think Paul knew the Torah was inspired. If so was he inspired? If so how could he write Galatians 5:21.22 and not know it says when we walk in the Spirit we will violate no law?

 

[DamianWarS]

That is what you said that I replied to. You seem to forget I have agreed that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

I don't see Sabbath applying any limiter to goodness. Is that something you agree with too?

 

[Gary K]

I don't see Sabbath applying any limiter to goodness. Is that something you agree with too?

Yes, when it comes to saving life. Jesus examples always had to do with saving life, animal or human.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes, when it comes to saving life. Jesus examples always had to do with saving life, animal or human.

And what of saving spiritual life? What do we exactly do when we save those in darkness and may we break our rest to engage in that saving for example doing servant lead tasks to show the love of Christ?

 

[Gary K]

And what of saving spiritual life? What do we exactly do when we save those in darkness and may we break our rest to engage in that saving for example doing servant lead tasks to show the love of Christ?

In saving spiritual life we tell people the Biblical truth. Jesus did the same on Sabbath even when it angered His hearers so much the took Him out to throw Him off a cliff. As to physical things we can do is work at saving people's physical lives. My parents became SDAs the year I was born and for years my mom woked in cafeterias, hospitals and boarding academies as SDA's have a large educational system from grade school through universities.

 

[DamianWarS]

In saving spiritual life we tell people the Biblical truth.

Are you saying we may not break Sabbath rest to engage the lost, except if they were in physical distress?

How exactly do we get access to people's lives to have the privilege to tell them biblical truths? In my experience people don't respond well to the unsolicited gospel. (or unsolicited anything)

If a sheep is in a pit, there is planning first needed to get the sheep out. Perhaps walking home and getting a ladder and a rope, then carrying it back. All is a part of saving the sheep, even if we haven't yet physically engaged in the act of pulling the sheep out.

I know you're resisting this, but I'm sure you're creative enough to know that although there are many ways to engage the lost, sometimes the most effective requires a bit of elbow grease. Why is it the Sabbath limits our ability to enage the lost using servant focused tasks as a mechanism to reach them for Christ?

 

[Studyman]

I don't see Sabbath applying any limiter to goodness. Is that something you agree with too?

Man's definition of "Goodness" is subjective and should be qualified by honest reflection, so a man doesn't "Hide himself from his own flesh" which is in part the very stated reason for God's Holy Sabbath fast in the first place, at least accord to the Christ inspired Prophet, Isaiah.

For instance, your poor widow might need someone to work for her regarding the upkeep of her lawn. And you could mow it on Thursday or Friday. But maybe you are making your own money on those days, or have boat payments to make, or have a fishing trip planed for the days God gave you to do your own work. So you reason in your mind, "Why should I sacrifice my time, or risk losing my money or my pleasure to help this poor widow. I know, I'll work for this widow on God's Holy Time, and then justify working on the Sabbath as " Doing Good" on the Sabbath.

It's really just foolishness to compare mowing someone's lawn, to helping your animal who fell into a pit on the Sabbath Days, or helping a person who has fallen, or become ill, or can't walk.

It's really just justification to do what you want, to justify your own self. There isn't a Lawn on the planet, that "NEEDS" help on God's Holy Sabbath. You could actually consult the Christ of the Bible, and accept what HE says is "Doing Good" on God's Holy Sabbath?

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"

Sharing what is actually written, Inspired by the Christ "Of the Bible", with a poor widow in her loneliness on God's Sabbath, would be "Good", Yes? And Lawful at the same time. There is a time and a place for men to mow Lawns. I don't believe Jesus advocated His Father's Holy Sabbath as that time.

 

[Gary K]

Are you saying we may not break Sabbath rest to engage the lost, except if they were in physical distress?

How exactly do we get access to people's lives to have the privilege to tell them biblical truths? In my experience people don't respond well to the unsolicited gospel. (or unsolicited anything)

If a sheep is in a pit, there is planning first needed to get the sheep out. Perhaps walking home and getting a ladder and a rope, then carrying it back. All is a part of saving the sheep, even if we haven't yet physically engaged in the act of pulling the sheep out.

I know you're resisting this, but I'm sure you're creative enough to know that although there are many ways to engage the lost, sometimes the most effective requires a bit of elbow grease. Why is it the Sabbath limits our ability to enage the lost using servant focused tasks as a mechanism to reach them for Christ?

I have no idea how you got that out of what I said.

In saving spiritual life we tell people the Biblical truth.

 

[Bob S]

So you think Paul knew the Torah was inspired.

Now you are trying to imply something that I never wrote. Why would you take the liberty to make such an implication?

If so was he inspired? If so how could he write Galatians 5:21.22 and not know it says when we walk in the Spirit we will violate no law?

What is your point in asking questions like that? I will answer your questions when you answer a question everyone has avoided answering. Where in scripture does God require Gentiles to keep the old covenant Sabbath that was given only to Israel?

 

[Icyspark]

Now you are trying to imply something that I never wrote. Why would you take the liberty to make such an implication?

What is your point in asking questions like that? I will answer your questions when you answer a question everyone has avoided answering. Where in scripture does God require Gentiles to keep the old covenant Sabbath that was given only to Israel?

Hi Bob S,

Seriously, you've got to stop with this charade. I personally have answered this question innumerable times. Why do you pretend that you haven't received a response? Just because you reject the main and plain meaning of Scripture doesn't mean it's not true.

 

[DamianWarS]

I have no idea how you got that out of what I said.

You're avoiding

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

 

[Gary K]

You're avoiding

May we break Sabbath rest to save spiritual life?

Just what am I avoiding? I simply don't understand your comment.