Works Relation to Salvation

[Studyman]

You keep insisting that it is "religions of this world" that I have drawn my knowledge from, but it's from reading the Bible myself and studying the historical background of the material. A simple question, if the golden calf incident followed the receiving of the 10 commandments, why was Moses absent from the assembly?

There is no "IF" here. I posted God's own Words, where He Himself told Israel not to build a god made of Gold. It's in your own Bible. If you draw your knowledge from the Scriptures as you say, then you would also know that God gave His commandments to the People, from HIS OWN mouth, prior to the Golden Calf. I posted the very Scriptures which clearly show this. Scriptures you have yet to even acknowledge.

Whether Moses is with them or not is of no consequence. God didn't say to them, "Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. as long as Moses resides with you".

To believe your religion in this matter, is to reject what is actually written. And also to believe that God had thousands of men killed for doing something HE had not already showed them was evil.

Whoever convinced you of these things, has deceived you. As you can surely see, the Scriptures do not even imply that the Children of Israel didn't know God had forbidden them to build a god of gold, when they built a god of gold.

 

[Studyman]

Okay, that's cool I'm just surprised that you would consider Phinehas' priesthood to be permanent.

Please read my post. I never even implied that I believe Phinehas' priesthood to be permanent. My post already answers the question you posed. Why not read what is actually posted, and then comment on that?

 

[Fervent]

There is no "IF" here. I posted God's own Words, where He Himself told Israel not to build a god made of Gold. It's in your own Bible. If you draw your knowledge from the Scriptures as you say, then you would also know that God gave His commandments to the People, from HIS OWN mouth, prior to the Golden Calf. I posted the very Scriptures which clearly show this. Scriptures you have yet to even acknowledge.

Whether Moses is with them or not is of no consequence. God didn't say to them, "Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. as long as Moses resides with you".

To believe your religion in this matter, is to reject what is actually written. And also to believe that God had thousands of men killed for doing something HE had not already showed them was evil.

Whoever convinced you of these things, has deceived you. As you can surely see, the Scriptures do not even imply that the Children of Israel didn't know God had forbidden them to build a god of gold, when they built a god of gold.

There is an if, because the narrative is there to read. Where was Moses when the golden calf happened? And how did he throw down the tablets if he had already brought them down? It's not that I'm "rejecting what is written" but that we understand those verses in different manners, you choosing to ignore the narrative as presented in Exodus in favor of a verse that supports your chosen narrative.

 

[Leaf473]

Please read my post. I never even implied that I believe Phinehas' priesthood to be permanent. My post already answers the question you posed. Why not read what is actually posted, and then comment on that?

I did. You talk about

This LAW was "ADDED" because of transgressions, Till the seed should come.

So... temporary or permanent?

 

[Studyman]

There is an if, because the narrative is there to read. Where was Moses when the golden calf happened? And how did he throw down the tablets if he had already brought them down? It's not that I'm "rejecting what is written" but that we understand those verses in different manners, you choosing to ignore the narrative as presented in Exodus in favor of a verse that supports your chosen narrative.

LOL, You said the Children of Israel had not received God's Commandments prior to the Golden Calf. The Scriptures expose this as false. Not only did the People receive God's Commandments, but agreed to obey what He Commanded them.

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Why don't you at least acknowledge these Scriptures which you have so far refused to do, and then explain for me how These Words of God isn't God Himself giving the Children of Israel, "HIS Commandments" against creating gods of gold, before they created gods of gold.

That God wanted to write His Words that HE Spoke to Israel on Tablets of Stone, doesn't negate the Biblical Fact that God gave Israel His Laws defining the evils of creating gods of gold, before Israel had corrupted themselves and created gods of gold.

And you refused to even address the part about your "narrative" which implies that God killed hundreds of Israelites for breaking a Law you preach to the world God had not yet given them.

Instead of working so hard to justify a deception, why not just accept correction from Scriptures, and grow from it.

You are welcome.

 

[Studyman]

I did. You talk about

So... temporary or permanent?

This is just dishonest again sir. What LAW does my post speak to, that Phinehas was a part of?

 

[Fervent]

LOL, You said the Children of Israel had not received God's Commandments prior to the Golden Calf. The Scriptures expose this as false. Not only did the People receive God's Commandments, but agreed to obey what He Commanded them.

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Why don't you at least acknowledge these Scriptures which you have so far refused to do, and then explain for me how These Words of God isn't God Himself giving the Children of Israel, "HIS Commandments" against creating gods of gold, before they created gods of gold.

That God wanted to write His Words that HE Spoke to Israel on Tablets of Stone, doesn't negate the Biblical Fact that God gave Israel His Laws defining the evils of creating gods of gold, before Israel had corrupted themselves and created gods of gold.

And you refused to even address the part about your "narrative" which implies that God killed hundreds of Israelites for breaking a Law you preach to the world God had not yet given them.

Instead of working so hard to justify a deception, why not just accept correction from Scriptures, and grow from it.

You are welcome.

I notice you're not answering my questions, which are based on the narrative in the text which is not a linear progression. But really the issue at hand is whether the covenant is a single covenant that was restored after being broken upon Moses' intercession or if God made an entirely different covenant because of the golden calf incident.

 

[Leaf473]

This is just dishonest again sir.

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine Peace be with you, my brother.

What LAW does my post speak to, that Phinehas was a part of?

I believe you describe it as the law that was added 430 years later. And my impression was you considered that law temporary.

 

[DamianWarS]

So I should be a hypocrite instead?

I don't get your meaning as to why helping someone in need on the Sabbath is being a hypocrite when Jesus says it is lawful.

 

[Studyman]

I notice you're not answering my questions,

I did answer. It doesn't matter where Moses was. God didn't command Israel to obey His voice, "Only if Moses is with them". I posted the Scriptures, but you refused to acknowledge them.

which are based on the narrative in the text which is not a linear progression.

According to whom? What Scripture in the entire Bible teaches men that "the narrative in the text, of Ex. 20, is not a linear progression."

Since you are preaching that I don't understand the "Narrative", or am promoting a false narrative, you should be able to educate me by showing me the Scriptures which prove that God had Israelites killed for breaking LAWS HE had not yet given them. That is your preaching here. I'm open to correction from Scriptures. You do a lot of preaching, but don't even address the Scriptures. Shouldn't a person professing to "know God" be able to explain their religion based on Scriptures? Jesus and Paul did.

Where is it written that God punished Israel for breaking a Covenant that you preach He had not yet given them? Why does God say in Ex. 34 "I make a covenant" if there is already a Covenant in place. Why does Moses have to plead for Israel's life, if their life was not in danger because of the Covenant God made with them, in the day HE brought them out of the Land of Egypt, still exists when HE told Moses HE was going to consume them?

Why do you completely ignore, and refuse to acknowledge what Jeremiah said in Jer. 7:

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So when was the LAWS concerning burnt offering and sacrifices "ADDED", if not "AFTER the Golden calf?

This is why the Scriptures are so important, to help believers discern between the doctrines of religious men, and what the Scriptures actually teach. It' like God say you coming and created Scriptures to protect me from your religious philosophy.

But really the issue at hand is whether the covenant is a single covenant that was restored after being broken upon Moses' intercession or if God made an entirely different covenant because of the golden calf incident.

No, this is not the issue. No one said, suggested or even implied, including me, that God made an " entirely different covenant" after Israel broke God's Covenant with the Golden calf incident, and God had many of them killed for their transgression.

You are just making that up, like your other doctrine "Israel had not yet received God's Commandments, when they created the golden calf".

The reason I replied to your post, was because of another popular falsehood you were promoting, namely "The Mosaic law is a complete unit, so if part of it must be kept then all of it must be kept."

If you believed God and His Inspired Word, you would understand the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, that was "ADDED because of Transgressions" after the Golden calf, was destined to change the moment God gave Levi the Priesthood Covenant.

Unless you somehow believe God didn't know that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

You can consider these Scriptures, and the warnings of the Jesus of the Bible, and humble yourself to Him.

Or, you can ignore the questions, continue to refuse to acknowledge the Scriptures posted, and continue to work so hard to preserve an adopted philosophy that the Scriptures expose as a falsehood.

My hope is that you might actually consider what is actually written. You might suffer a little humiliation, but a contrite heart of a good thing in the eyes of God.

 

[Fervent]

I did answer. It doesn't matter where Moses was. God didn't command Israel to obey His voice, "Only if Moses is with them". I posted the Scriptures, but you refused to acknowledge them.




According to whom? What Scripture in the entire Bible teaches men that "the narrative in the text, of Ex. 20, is not a linear progression."

Since you are preaching that I don't understand the "Narrative", or am promoting a false narrative, you should be able to educate me by showing me the Scriptures which prove that God had Israelites killed for breaking LAWS HE had not yet given them. That is your preaching here. I'm open to correction from Scriptures. You do a lot of preaching, but don't even address the Scriptures. Shouldn't a person professing to "know God" be able to explain their religion based on Scriptures? Jesus and Paul did.

Where is it written that God punished Israel for breaking a Covenant that you preach He had not yet given them? Why does God say in Ex. 34 "I make a covenant" if there is already a Covenant in place. Why does Moses have to plead for Israel's life, if their life was not in danger because of the Covenant God made with them, in the day HE brought them out of the Land of Egypt, still exists when HE told Moses HE was going to consume them?

Why do you completely ignore, and refuse to acknowledge what Jeremiah said in Jer. 7:

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So when was the LAWS concerning burnt offering and sacrifices "ADDED", if not "AFTER the Golden calf?

This is why the Scriptures are so important, to help believers discern between the doctrines of religious men, and what the Scriptures actually teach. It' like God say you coming and created Scriptures to protect me from your religious philosophy.



No, this is not the issue. No one said, suggested or even implied, including me, that God made an " entirely different covenant" after Israel broke God's Covenant with the Golden calf incident, and God had many of them killed for their transgression.

You are just making that up, like your other doctrine "Israel had not yet received God's Commandments, when they created the golden calf".

The reason I replied to your post, was because of another popular falsehood you were promoting, namely "The Mosaic law is a complete unit, so if part of it must be kept then all of it must be kept."

If you believed God and His Inspired Word, you would understand the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, that was "ADDED because of Transgressions" after the Golden calf, was destined to change the moment God gave Levi the Priesthood Covenant.

Unless you somehow believe God didn't know that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

You can consider these Scriptures, and the warnings of the Jesus of the Bible, and humble yourself to Him.

Or, you can ignore the questions, continue to refuse to acknowledge the Scriptures posted, and continue to work so hard to preserve an adopted philosophy that the Scriptures expose as a falsehood.

My hope is that you might actually consider what is actually written. You might suffer a little humiliation, but a contrite heart of a good thing in the eyes of God.

I'm hardly preaching, and its not that I can't defend my position using Scripture simply that I'm not interested in putting in the work in what will in all likelihood be a fruitless effort, especially from someone who seems to believe that their interpretation of Scripture is the only possible one that sincere interpreters will come to and anything they disagree with must be from the "religions of the world." The dispute is not whether the Israelites breached the covenant and had to be restored, but whether the priestly laws were an addition because of that breach making it ok to divide the law up into segments. You've provided nothing to make the case that the laws regarding priests were an addition and seem to be reading that into the texts, all you've shown is that a breach happened.

 

[Icyspark]

This whole "613" Laws deception was created to promote the religious philosophy that God's Laws are the "Yoke of Bondage" spoken of in the Testimony. Bob S is an advocate of this philosophy.

The truth is, God never placed 613 Laws on the neck of even ONE man. EVER!!! It seems prudent to point this undeniable biblical Fact out.

How they create this number is deceptive. For example, in the Scriptures, you will find a Law;

Lev. 18: 6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

So this is one Law. But God goes on to define "kin".

7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. And so on.

The deceivers then report that instead of "One law", which is true, there are 21 laws which there isn't.

This is akin to saying the Speed Limit is 55 MPH. One Law. But then going on to say, don't drive 60 mph, and don't drive 65 mph, and don't drive 70 mph and don't drive 75 mph, and don't drive 80 mph, and don't drive 85 mph, and don't drive 90 mph, and don't drive 95 mph and then telling others that the State imposed 9 speed limit Laws on its drivers.

You are right to question this popular but deceptive claim of the "613" Laws doctrine.

Hi Studyman,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. That is an interesting perspective on how they arrived at the number 613.

I just find it humorous that a number that is not found in Scripture is so frequently appealed to in an attempt to bury a numeral (Ten) which is in fact found in the Bible. So the first attempt is to hide the Ten inside a larger number (addition). Then, when that inevitably fails, these same people resort to subtraction and attempt to forget the one command we're told to remember. Strange how that works.

But this thread isn't specifically about the Sabbath. It's about how our works reveal our true heart condition. If our works reveal that we are not obeying the One we call "Lord, Lord," then those works can be used to show that we are not "in the faith." Paul is the one who says to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" We can fail the test if our works reveal that our faith is NOT real. Works don't save us. They merely affirm or deny our claims of loving Jesus.

God bless,

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. That is an interesting perspective on how they arrived at the number 613.

I just find it humorous that a number that is not found in Scripture is so frequently appealed to in an attempt to bury a numeral (Ten) which is in fact found in the Bible. So the first attempt is to hide the Ten inside a larger number (addition). Then, when that inevitably fails, these same people resort to subtraction and attempt to forget the one command we're told to remember. Strange how that works.

But this thread isn't specifically about the Sabbath. It's about how our works reveal our true heart condition. If our works reveal that we are not obeying the One we call "Lord, Lord," then those works can be used to show that we are not "in the faith." Paul is the one who says to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" We can fail the test if our works reveal that our faith is NOT real. Works don't save us. They merely affirm or deny our claims of loving Jesus.

God bless,

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I appreciate the reply. From the very beginning God has shown the danger of listening to other voices, even if they quote some of God's Word, as the story of Eve demonstrated. Who we listen to, and whose teaching we adopt and promote, is directly related to what is in our hearts, in my view.

This world is full of "other" religious voices, "many" of which "Come in Christ's name". The Jesus of the Bible was most worried about these "many" who come in His Name, who teach that HE is truly the Christ, and Paul speaks of satan itself disguised as "Apostles of Christ".

For this reason, we are told to test the spirits and to "study" to "Show ourselves approved". This "613" law doctrine has been used against God for a long time. I'm glad for the opportunity to share what study has shown me. And perhaps some of us with this doctrine in our heart, can expose it to the Light, and watch it fade away, leaving only Truth behind.

 

[Bob S]

This whole "613" Laws deception was created to promote the religious philosophy that God's Laws are the "Yoke of Bondage" spoken of in the Testimony. Bob S is an advocate of this philosophy.

Before telling everyone what I believe why not ask me first. It is very poor debating to write about things you do not know anything about.

I frequently quote the Apostle Paul in 2Cor 3: verse 7 telling the Jews that the 10 commandments WERE the ministry of death. He was not referring to Gentiles because they have never been under the 10 commandments. I am not referring to the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt. God gave all of those laws to Israel for a purpose. I do not question God's dealing with all who came out of Egypt and the laws He gave the Israelites were never meant to be a "yoke of bondage" hence I never ever remember using the term.
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1 Free from what? Free from all the laws that they that didn't deal with morality. Laws dealing with morality are forever and come under the heading called LOVE. The greatest command ever given is that we should love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. Jn 15:9-14

I would appreciate it if you would get your story straight.

The truth is, God never placed 613 Laws on the neck of even ONE man. EVER!!! It seems prudent to point this undeniable biblical Fact out.

So, I guess they were lawless

The truth is, God never placed 613 Laws on the neck of even ONE man. EVER!!! It seems prudent to point this undeniable biblical Fact out.

How they create this number is deceptive. For example, in the Scriptures, you will find a Law;

Do you have a better count?

Lev. 18: 6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

So this is one Law. But God goes on to define "kin".

7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness. And so on.

The deceivers then report that instead of "One law", which is true, there are 21 laws which there isn't.

This is akin to saying the Speed Limit is 55 MPH. One Law. But then going on to say, don't drive 60 mph, and don't drive 65 mph, and don't drive 70 mph and don't drive 75 mph, and don't drive 80 mph, and don't drive 85 mph, and don't drive 90 mph, and don't drive 95 mph and then telling others that the State imposed 9 speed limit Laws on its drivers.

You are right to question this popular but deceptive claim of the "613" Laws doctrine.

We get the 613 number from our Jewish friends. Maybe they are wrong, but what we do know there were a lot of them. And we know that out of all the laws, individuals only had to keep the ones that pertain to him/her. If you were a Levite, you would have some laws to keep that a sandal maker wouldn't.

 

[Leaf473]

We get the 613 number from our Jewish friends. Maybe they are wrong, but what we do know there were a lot of them. And we know that out of all the laws, individuals only had to keep the ones that pertain to him/her. If you were a Levite, you would have some laws to keep that a sandal maker wouldn't.

Myself, I'd probably count about 700 or 800 possible laws

Here's one of the last ones from Deuteronomy

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 33:27 - New American Standard Bible

The eternal God is a hiding place, And underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from you, And said, ‘Destroy!’

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Before telling everyone what I believe why not ask me first. It is very poor debating to write about things you do not know anything about.

I frequently quote the Apostle Paul in 2Cor 3: verse 7 telling the Jews that the 10 commandments WERE the ministry of death. He was not referring to Gentiles because they have never been under the 10 commandments. I am not referring to the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt. God gave all of those laws to Israel for a purpose. I do not question God's dealing with all who came out of Egypt and the laws He gave the Israelites were never meant to be a "yoke of bondage" hence I never ever remember using the term.
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1 Free from what? Free from all the laws that they that didn't deal with morality. Laws dealing with morality are forever and come under the heading called LOVE. The greatest command ever given is that we should love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. Jn 15:9-14

I would appreciate it if you would get your story straight.

So, I guess they were lawless

Do you have a better count?

We get the 613 number from our Jewish friends. Maybe they are wrong, but what we do know there were a lot of them. And we know that out of all the laws, individuals only had to keep the ones that pertain to him/her. If you were a Levite, you would have some laws to keep that a sandal maker wouldn't.

In mentioning sandals you're referring to the laws found in the Talmud, a strictly legalistic creation by the Jews. Not a law in it can be found in the Bible. You ought to read part of it sometime to understand what legalism actually is.

 

[Studyman]

Before telling everyone what I believe why not ask me first. It is very poor debating to write about things you do not know anything about.

I frequently quote the Apostle Paul in 2Cor 3: verse 7 telling the Jews that the 10 commandments WERE the ministry of death.

That is your adopted religious philosophy. But post the 10 commandments and show me where the word "Death" is even mentioned.

Now if you were to read how sins were forgiven after the Golden calf, and the number of animals which were killed each day by those who sinned, to provide for the forgiveness of their sins, then you will find the "Ministry of Death".

He was not referring to Gentiles because they have never been under the 10 commandments.

Again, you have your religion, but there are also the Holy Scriptures. In the Holy scriptures, the God of the Bible says.

Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


It seems prudent and expedient to point out the differences between what you promote, and what the scriptures actually teach. In this way a man is able to discern between those who preach this world's religions, from those who further the Word of God.

I am not referring to the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt. God gave all of those laws to Israel for a purpose. I do not question God's dealing with all who came out of Egypt and the laws He gave the Israelites were never meant to be a "yoke of bondage" hence I never ever remember using the term.

I remember you using the term.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1 Free from what? Free from all the laws that they that didn't deal with morality.

There you go. You are preaching again, that God's Ten Commandments, that you work to convince others are the "ministration of Death" are the "Yoke of Bondage" Jesus came to save us from.

If I believe in the Jesus of the bible, He said The Pharisees, who were bewitching the Galatians, "Taught for doctrine the commandments of men", not God. He said "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

But you would have others believe that the men were burdened with obedience to God's Laws, and that Paul is telling the Galatians not to be burdened "AGAIN" by the Yoke of Slavery, or as you preach. "all the laws of God", which you imply enslaved them.

The Holy scriptures teach that the true body of Christ "Were" slaves of Sin, not God's instruction in righteousness. But you preach to the world that Paul is saying the Gentiles were "Slaves" to "All the Laws of God" and to not "Turn again" to the Laws of God.

So I know it is your practice not to answer people's questions, from the many I have asked of the years, but I'll ask anyway.

How can a Gentile Galatian, who was a slave to Sin, "Turn again" to "all the Laws of God" you preach he was enslaved to?

Laws dealing with morality are forever and come under the heading called LOVE. The greatest command ever given is that we should love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. Jn 15:9-14

Actually, here is what the Jesus "Of the Bible" actually teaches.

Matt. 22: 37 Jesus (Of the Bible) said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Teaching falsehoods about God, like His 10 Commandments are the "Ministration of Death" or that the Galatians were "Slaves to all of God's Laws" before Jesus freed them, is not Loving God, nor is it Loving thy neighbor.

In your religion perhaps, but not in the holy scriptures.

I would appreciate it if you would get your story straight.

So far, you have proven my understanding of your preaching spot on.

So, I guess they were lawless

I was addressing the insidious falsehood that is promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name, that God, after gaining Israel's trust, brought Israel out of Egypt/sin, only to place 613 Laws, impossible to keep, on their necks.

Do you have a better count?

When you stop promoting the falsehood that Paul rebuked the Galatians for "Turning Again" to "all of God's Laws", perhaps we can discuss honestly what His Instructions in Righteousness are.

We get the 613 number from our Jewish friends. Maybe they are wrong, but what we do know there were a lot of them.

That's funny, you always used this doctrine in the past as if it was your own.

And we know that out of all the laws, individuals only had to keep the ones that pertain to him/her. If you were a Levite, you would have some laws to keep that a sandal maker wouldn't.

Yes, God expects men to obey Him.

 

[Bob S]

There you go. You are preaching again, that God's Ten Commandments, that you work to convince others are the "ministration of Death" are the "Yoke of Bondage" Jesus came to save us from.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Study those verses for a while without your preconceived beliefs

If I believe in the Jesus of the bible, He said The Pharisees, who were bewitching the Galatians, "Taught for doctrine the commandments of men", not God. He said "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

It was the Judaizers teaching Torah to the Galatians. Get your story straight. I truly believe you would write anything to try to make a point. Sorry, but I actually know what Paul wrote so don't try to put out falsehood and expect me to believe it.

But you would have others believe that the men were burdened with obedience to God's Laws, and that Paul is telling the Galatians not to be burdened "AGAIN" by the Yoke of Slavery, or as you preach. "all the laws of God", which you imply enslaved them.

The Holy scriptures teach that the true body of Christ "Were" slaves of Sin, not God's instruction in righteousness. But you preach to the world that Paul is saying the Gentiles were "Slaves" to "All the Laws of God" and to not "Turn again" to the Laws of God.

So I know it is your practice not to answer people's questions, from the many I have asked of the years, but I'll ask anyway.

How can a Gentile Galatian, who was a slave to Sin, "Turn again" to "all the Laws of God" you preach he was enslaved to?

Ask Paul. He was the one who told them salvation didn't come by works of the Torah, it came by God's grace. Paul taught the Galatians
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

Actually, here is what the Jesus "Of the Bible" actually teaches.

Matt. 22: 37 Jesus (Of the Bible) said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Teaching falsehoods about God, like His 10 Commandments are the "Ministration of Death" or that the Galatians were "Slaves to all of God's Laws" before Jesus freed them, is not Loving God, nor is it Loving thy neighbor.

In your eyes Paul was teaching falsehood. Too bad that you have to deny him in order to uphold your preconceived ideas

In your religion perhaps, but not in the holy scriptures.



So far, you have proven my understanding of your preaching spot on.

So, I suppose you believe you know it all.

I was addressing the insidious falsehood that is promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name, that God, after gaining Israel's trust, brought Israel out of Egypt/sin, only to place 613 Laws, impossible to keep, on their necks.

Impossible or not they were miserable law keepers and Jesus had to come to this Earth to save them. Even if they keep all of the laws that in itself would not have saved them. Abraham was saved by God's grace, not because of what he did. Israel was aware of how to be saved. Moses wrote how Abraham was saved.

When you stop promoting the falsehood that Paul rebuked the Galatians for "Turning Again" to "all of God's Laws", perhaps we can discuss honestly what His Instructions in Righteousness are.

Seriously???

That's funny, you always used this doctrine in the past as if it was your own.

Well, now you know the rest of the story

Yes, God expects men to obey Him.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5
That covers just about everything of what Jesus expects.

It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done for us.

 

[Gary K]

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Study those verses for a while without your preconceived beliefs

It was the Judaizers teaching Torah to the Galatians. Get your story straight. I truly believe you would write anything to try to make a point. Sorry, but I actually know what Paul wrote so don't try to put out falsehood and expect me to believe it.

Ask Paul. He was the one who told them salvation didn't come by works of the Torah, it came by God's grace. Paul taught the Galatians
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5



In your eyes Paul was teaching falsehood. Too bad that you have to deny him in order to uphold your preconceived ideas

So, I suppose you believe you know it all.

Impossible or not they were miserable law keepers and Jesus had to come to this Earth to save them. Even if they keep all of the laws that in itself would not have saved them. Abraham was saved by God's grace, not because of what he did. Israel was aware of how to be saved. Moses wrote how Abraham was saved.

Seriously???

Well, now you know the rest of the story


The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5
That covers just about everything of what Jesus expects.

It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done for us.

Just one question. Bob. Did God inspire the Torah?

 

[Studyman]

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Study those verses for a while without your preconceived beliefs

That is your error it seems. Many are on a Jihad against God's commandments, and as a result, you/they comb the Scriptures to find verses they can separate from the rest of the Bible, so they can then mold them into promoting whatever religion they have adopted. When you had adopted SDA, you searched for and then separated Scriptures you could use to promote the Philosophies of that religion, with the same zeal no doubt that you display now. Now you have adopted a different religion and are now separating scriptures from the rest of the bible, in order to promote their religious philosophies.

When a person is seeking biblical truth, as opposed to promoting the philosophies of one religion over another, they consider "Every Word" of the Holy scriptures which Paul said were inspired by God.

When this is done, it becomes clear that neither God nor the Prophets HE sent, nor His Son who HE sent, the Jesus "of the Bible", nor Paul or any of the Apostles, engaged in the same Jihad against God's commandments that you and "Many" who come in Christ's Name partake in.

I won't post all the Scriptures because you have already heard them and have not been persuaded. But I will post a few.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which?

This is a great question. What commandments is Jesus talking about here? Does a man take a goat to the Levite Priest as per the Law? No, Jesus said "which" Commandments are important. The same commandments you and Kenneth Copeland and "many" who come in Christ's Name, preach to the world are the "Ministration of death". Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And again from Paul;

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And again;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There are many, many more scriptures which show God's View of His Own Commandments, but as it has already been established, you have already heard them, and are not persuaded..


So yes, there is a "Ministration of Death", and the Glory of this ministration has been done away with. But it's not the 10 commandments that has been done away with. At least not according to the Sciptures.

I know you will not be persuaded otherwise because Jesus said so.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nevertheless, it seems expedient to "test the spirits" and to point out that there are more words in the Bible than the ones you have selected here and separated for your own purpose.