Works Relation to Salvation

[Gary K]

It's what I'm interested in talking about

So having a major misapprehension about who God is doesn't interest you? If that was demonstrated to me it would go to the top of my list of things to discuss.

 

[Leaf473]

So having a major misapprehension about who God is doesn't interest you? If that was demonstrated to me it would go to the top of my list of things to discuss.

What is the misapprehension about God that you want to discuss?

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe we mean something different about rule by force, Gary my man

I think this is an example of ruling by force

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 38:4 - New International Reader's Version

But I will turn you around. I will put hooks in your jaws. I will bring you out of your land along with your whole army. Your horses will come with you. Your horsemen will be completely armed. Your huge army will carry large and small shields. All of them will be ready to use their swords.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

What is the misapprehension about God that you want to discuss?

So I can demonstrate from scripture your misunderstanding, i.e. that God rules by force, and you sill have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Leaf473]

So I can demonstrate from scripture your misunderstanding, i.e. that God rules by force, and you sill have no idea what I'm talking about.

I think God can rule by force. Does he do it all the time? No.

"Hooks in your jaws". I believe that would be an example of ruling by force.

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 38:4 - New International Reader's Version

But I will turn you around. I will put hooks in your jaws. I will bring you out of your land along with your whole army. Your horses will come with you. Your horsemen will be completely armed. Your huge army will carry large and small shields. All of them will be ready to use their swords.

www.biblegateway.com

God said to the ruler of Assyria

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 37:29 - New International Reader's Version

You roar against me and brag. And I have heard your bragging. So I will put my hook in your nose. I will put my bit in your mouth. And I will make you go home by the same way you came.’ ” ’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I think God can rule by force. Does he do it all the time? No.

"Hooks in your jaws". I believe that would be an example of ruling by force.

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 38:4 - New International Reader's Version

But I will turn you around. I will put hooks in your jaws. I will bring you out of your land along with your whole army. Your horses will come with you. Your horsemen will be completely armed. Your huge army will carry large and small shields. All of them will be ready to use their swords.

www.biblegateway.com

God said to the ruler of Assyria

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 37:29 - New International Reader's Version

You roar against me and brag. And I have heard your bragging. So I will put my hook in your nose. I will put my bit in your mouth. And I will make you go home by the same way you came.’ ” ’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

So because God is capable of defeating His enemies He rules by force? Is He just supposed to roll over and let them run over the top of His people rather than use any force in defense of His people?

Interesting that the OT uses the word lovingkindness to describe God or His actions 26 times.

 

[Gary K]

Interesting also that your belief makes God a liar.

Exodus 34: 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

[Leaf473]

So because God is capable of defeating His enemies He rules by force?

Yes, sometimes That's how it looks to me.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 40:10 - New International Reader's Version

The LORD and King is coming with power. He rules with a powerful arm. He has set his people free. He is bringing them back as his reward. He has won the battle over their enemies.

www.biblegateway.com

Is He just supposed to roll over and let them run over the top of His people rather than use any force in defense of His people?

I think we agree there,
God does come to the defense of his people!

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 110:2 - New International Reader's Version

The LORD will make your royal authority spread out from Zion to other lands. He says, “Rule over your enemies who are all around you.”

www.biblegateway.com

Interesting that the OT uses the word lovingkindness to describe God or His actions 26 times.

Great point!

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 33:5 - New American Standard Bible 1995

He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Interesting also that your belief makes God a liar.

Exodus 34: 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

I hear what you're saying, and thanks for bringing that up
It's just like it says here

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 9:24 - New American Standard Bible 1995

but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

And we also know that God is love!

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:8 - New American Standard Bible 1995

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

www.biblegateway.com

At the same time,

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:5-6 - New American Standard Bible

Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

www.biblegateway.com

and

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:9 - New American Standard Bible

You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I hear what you're saying, and thanks for bringing that up
It's just like it says here

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 9:24 - New American Standard Bible 1995

but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

And we also know that God is love!

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:8 - New American Standard Bible 1995

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

www.biblegateway.com

At the same time,

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:5-6 - New American Standard Bible

Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

www.biblegateway.com

and

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:9 - New American Standard Bible

You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

www.biblegateway.com

God protects His people in a world of evil. That doesn't mean He rules by force.

Genesis 15: 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

God allowed the descendants of Abraham to be slaves in Egypt because a pagan nation had not had not passed the close of their probation and would not for 400 years. That tells us a lot about God's love for fallen humanity.

Exodus 17: 8 ¶ Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.
9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses’ hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Now we understand why God gave the instructions He did to Saul about about wiping out the Amalekites,

1Samuel 15: 1 SAMUEL also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
6 ¶ And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
10 ¶ Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,
11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

This was hundreds of years after the Amalekites had attacked Israel in their passage through the wilderness. The nation was allowed to exist for centuries after it had displayed it's hatred of God and His people.

 

[Leaf473]

God protects His people in a world of evil. That doesn't mean He rules by force.

Genesis 15: 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

God allowed the descendants of Abraham to be slaves in Egypt because a pagan nation had not had not passed the close of their probation and would not for 400 years. That tells us a lot about God's love for fallen humanity.

Exodus 17: 8 ¶ Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.
9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses’ hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Now we understand why God gave the instructions He did to Saul about about wiping out the Amalekites,

1Samuel 15: 1 SAMUEL also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
6 ¶ And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
10 ¶ Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,
11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

This was hundreds of years after the Amalekites had attacked Israel in their passage through the wilderness. The nation was allowed to exist for centuries after it had displayed it's hatred of God and His people.

Yes, praise God for his love!

How does this fit with what you're saying?

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 47:8 - New American Standard Bible

God reigns over the nations, God sits on His holy throne.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Also, @Gary K my brother, please talk about this

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 4:25 - New American Standard Bible

that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the animals of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind...

www.biblegateway.com

Why was Nebuchadnezzar going to be driven away from mankind?

 

[Gary K]

Yes, praise God for his love!

How does this fit with what you're saying?

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 47:8 - New American Standard Bible

God reigns over the nations, God sits on His holy throne.

www.biblegateway.com

Are all nations followers of God? No. Yet God is still on His throne offering them the
sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[Gary K]

Also, @Gary K my brother, please talk about this

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 4:25 - New American Standard Bible

that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the animals of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind...

www.biblegateway.com

Why was Nebuchadnezzar going to be driven away from mankind?

Because of his pride. He knew the God of heaven was responsible for all his success and yet after being warned what would happen to him if he continued to take credit for it he still did.

Daniel 4: 14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
16 Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
19 ¶ Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
28 ¶ All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
31 While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws.
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Nebuchadnezzar finally learned his lesson through the mercy and love of God. I believe he will be in heaven.

 

[Leaf473]

Are all nations followers of God? No. Yet God is still on His throne offering them the
sacrifice of Jesus.

Right, we agree that God is ruling. I think he then forces or coerces nations to sometimes do things they might not otherwise do.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 19:28 - New American Standard Bible

Because of your raging against Me, And because your complacency has come up to My ears, I will put My hook in your nose, And My bridle in your lips, And I will turn you back by the way by which you came.

www.biblegateway.com

and

Bible Gateway passage: Obadiah 2 - New International Reader's Version

The LORD says to Edom, “I will make you weak among the nations. They will look down on you.

www.biblegateway.com

Nebuchadnezzar finally learned his lesson through the mercy and love of God. I believe he will be in heaven.

As I read the story, Nebuchadnezzar learned his lesson by God forcing him to live as an animal until he "looked up toward heaven" and acknowledged that "His rule will last forever". And sure, he may well be in heaven

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 4:34 - New International Reader's Version

At the end of that time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven. My mind became clear again. Then I praised the Most High God. I gave honor and glory to the God who lives forever. His rule will last forever. His kingdom will never end.

www.biblegateway.com

And sure again, God's mercy was shown in that Nebuchadnezzar's stump remained .

 

[Gary K]

Right, we agree that God is ruling. I think he then forces or coerces nations to sometimes do things they might not otherwise do.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 19:28 - New American Standard Bible

Because of your raging against Me, And because your complacency has come up to My ears, I will put My hook in your nose, And My bridle in your lips, And I will turn you back by the way by which you came.

www.biblegateway.com

and

Bible Gateway passage: Obadiah 2 - New International Reader's Version

The LORD says to Edom, “I will make you weak among the nations. They will look down on you.

www.biblegateway.com

As I read the story, Nebuchadnezzar learned his lesson by God forcing him to live as an animal until he "looked up toward heaven" and acknowledged that "His rule will last forever". And sure, he may well be in heaven

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 4:34 - New International Reader's Version

At the end of that time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven. My mind became clear again. Then I praised the Most High God. I gave honor and glory to the God who lives forever. His rule will last forever. His kingdom will never end.

www.biblegateway.com

And sure again, God's mercy was shown in that Nebuchadnezzar's stump remained .

Nebuchadnezzar's enemies couldn't get rid of him even though he went insane for 7 years and as the king of a pagan nation he was sure to have enemies out to get him. Another sign of God's mercy and love.

You can continue to insist God rule by the principles the devil lives by but it will never be true.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

 

[Leaf473]

Nebuchadnezzar's enemies couldn't get rid of him even though he went insane for 7 years and as the king of a pagan nation he was sure to have enemies out to get him.

Another sign of God's mercy and love.

Amen

You can continue to insist God rule by the principles the devil lives by but it will never be true.

I do not insist that. As you say, it isn't true.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Amen to the scripture! To the law and to the testimony! I also like this passage,

Bible Gateway passage: Haggai 2:6-7 - New American Standard Bible 1995

For thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts.

www.biblegateway.com

Peace be with you, my man!

 

[Leaf473]

Hey, @Gary K

Did you want to talk about the church that Jesus built? Like, did it stop existing between Acts 2 and now?

I think the church has always been around since that day of Pentecost.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:17 - New American Standard Bible

And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Hey, @Gary K

Did you want to talk about the church that Jesus built? Like, did it stop existing between Acts 2 and now?

I think the church has always been around since that day of Pentecost.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:17 - New American Standard Bible

And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

www.biblegateway.com

It's been around since Cain and Abel that's why Abel is listed in Hebrews 11 as a man of faith but the obedient faithful have always been a very small minority. The devil has always been very successful in deceiving the vast majority of the population.

 

[Leaf473]

It's been around since Cain and Abel that's why Abel is listed in Hebrews 11 as a man of faith but the obedient faithful have always been a very small minority. The devil has always been very successful in deceiving the vast majority of the population.

Right, that one church has always been around. And we don't want to cause division in that one church, the one body of Christ. We probably agree on that, yes?

How does a person become part of that one Church, in your view?