• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Bob S said:
If you remember God told the Israelites to remain in their dwellings on the Sabbath. [:handpointleft: This is commonly known as taking a text out of context and making it into a pretext.] Are you able to locate where God released them from that rule? There isn't any indication any other person was even stoned for breaking those rules. That also indicates that just picking up sticks was not the true reason he was stoned. [Are you "absolutely" sure about this? :astonished: ] It had to have been his defiant heart which would have been his scorn of God.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi spark, I would like to know who gave you the right to add to my statement?
A death by stoning was a terrible way to die. You really think people were not willing to forgo picking up sticks on Sabbath because of fear of stoning? I know I wouldn't have been someone to repeat his behavior.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It looks to me like the division was caused by people dividing into camps.
And when open sin and unbelief are rife there will not be people arguing over insignificant issues? Seems your understanding of spiritual issues is really lacking.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And when open sin and unbelief are rife there will not be people arguing over insignificant issues? Seems your understanding of spiritual issues is really lacking.
I believe division itself is a serious sin :heart:

Peace be with you, my man!

 
Upvote 0

Icyspark

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
331
252
Least coast
✟109,603.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Kinda reminds me of your answer to 2Cor3:6-11 where Paul in verse 7 (Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,) was referring to Joshua 8:30 Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the Lord, the God of Israel, 31 as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses—an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the Lord burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings. 32 There, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on stones a copy of the law of Moses. Of course, that was an untrue answer that you never offered an apology.


Hi Bob S,

Nice try. You've already attempted to accuse me of writing something like this and I already challenged you to supply the evidence. I didn't write what you're accusing me of so why would I offer an apology? At this point you need to supply the proof or it's you that needs to apologize for your false accusation.

You and I have talked at length about 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 and at one point you even seemed to acknowledge the truth about what glory passed away. But that was short lived and soon you were back to making the same false teaching that the glory was on the stones rather than on Moses's face (see below):

Originally Posted by onthebeam
The shining on Moses face was a mere reflection from the law. It was the law that was fading. You have to believe that it was all from Moses to reconcile the belief of your prophet. Too bad my friend. Bob
Originally Posted by Icyspark
Hi Bob,
Come on now. Why put a veil over his face if the glory in his face was simply "a mere reflection from the law"? Look at it again:
Exodus 34:29-33
When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant [why?] because he had spoken with the LORD. When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the LORD had given him on Mount Sinai.
When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face.
Now tell me again, what was the cause of the glory shining in Moses' face?​
So, whereas you make random, unsubstantiated accusations about things I supposedly said, I can actually and factually supply your specific words. Why? Cuz I generally attempt to archive my conversations ... for such a time as this.


That is nothing but a bunch of bologna spark. They were to remain in their dwellings on the Sabbath period. They were not to go out looking for something that was not there in the first place. [But that's the point! Read verse 27!]


Ha! This is so bizarre. You just bypassed all of the Bible passage I supplied which refutes your false teaching, waved your hand to dismiss what the Bible clearly says and then continued on in your insistence that the Bible says, "They were to remain in their dwellings on the Sabbath period."

Exodus 16:27-30​
27 Some of the people went out anyway on the seventh day, but they found no food. 28 The Lord asked Moses, “How long will these people refuse to obey my commands and instructions? 29 They must realize that the Sabbath is the Lord’s gift to you. That is why he gives you a two-day supply on the sixth day, so there will be enough for two days. On the Sabbath day you must each stay in your place. Do not go out to pick up food on the seventh day.” 30 So the people did not gather any food on the seventh day.

Let's see if you can take the explicit words of Scripture—which do not just arbitrarily clip off where you insist on stopping (i.e., "stay in your place."). No. The very next sentence flips your nonsense right side up: "Do not go out to pick up food on the seventh day."

So let's hear it. Take the above four verses of Scripture and see if you can flip it back to your false teaching. Or—and this would be refreshing—you could let the Bible read in its normative sense.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Division is open sin.

The question is what Paul is referring to and what causes them.

Revelation 17 gives a long list of dissensions caused by the devil that will only be solved by the second coming of Jesus. Should His true church just submit to the dissension he causes or should it hold fast to the truth no matter the cost?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The question is what Paul is referring to and what causes them.

Revelation 17 gives a long list of dissensions caused by the devil that will only be solved by the second coming of Jesus. Should His true church just submit to the dissension he causes or should it hold fast to the truth no matter the cost?
I think Paul is talking about within the church, the body of Christ

Looking at footnote b, Divisions could also be translated as Schisms.

 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think Paul is talking about within the church, the body of Christ

Looking at footnote b, Divisions could also be translated as Schisms.

That doesn't make you right. The devil causes all dissensions as he is always hard at work

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,845
8,376
Dallas
✟1,087,112.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi BNR32FAN,

Deuteronomy 4:13
He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Let's start with a question. How many commandments are in the Ten Commandment covenant?

Deuteronomy 5:22
These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

The above account of the giving of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy is the same instance as recorded in Exodus 20. The Ten Commandment covenant was concluded and God "added nothing more" to it. Could that be why there's a numeral attached to it?

But then, after this line of demarcation (of adding nothing more), you're correct. A lot more requirements, decrees and laws were added. These are separate from the numbered list of commandments written by God's own finger on tablets of stone. These requirements, decrees and laws were written by Moses on paper and God directed this "book of the law" to be kept separate from the Ten Commandments. The rocks were in the box. The book was in a nook.

Jesus certainly gave all the commandments at Sinai. That's absolutely true (and that's not "absolutely" in the ambiguous, indefinite sense which Bob S uses the word ;) ).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
It could’ve been God The Father giving the commandments in Exodus. We don’t know for sure. In any case it still stands that if it was Jesus giving the commandments in Exodus 20 then it would still be Him giving the commandments in the following chapters. And your quote from Deuteronomy 5:22 is in reference to the commandments that were given with the whole assembly present. They stopped at 10 because they were afraid and asked Moses to relay the rest to them. So that’s why the 10 were the ones given to the whole assembly and not the rest of them that followed. I’m sure you’re aware of this.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,111.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Bob S,

Nice try. You've already attempted to accuse me of writing something like this and I already challenged you to supply the evidence. I didn't write what you're accusing me of so why would I offer an apology? At this point you need to supply the proof or it's you that needs to apologize for your false accusation.

You and I have talked at length about 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 and at one point you even seemed to acknowledge the truth about what glory passed away. But that was short lived and soon you were back to making the same false teaching that the glory was on the stones rather than on Moses's face (see below):

Originally Posted by onthebeam
The shining on Moses face was a mere reflection from the law. It was the law that was fading. You have to believe that it was all from Moses to reconcile the belief of your prophet. Too bad my friend. Bob
Originally Posted by Icyspark
Hi Bob,
Come on now. Why put a veil over his face if the glory in his face was simply "a mere reflection from the law"? Look at it again:
Exodus 34:29-33
When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant [why?] because he had spoken with the LORD. When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the LORD had given him on Mount Sinai.
When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face.
Now tell me again, what was the cause of the glory shining in Moses' face?​
So, whereas you make random, unsubstantiated accusations about things I supposedly said, I can actually and factually supply your specific words. Why? Cuz I generally attempt to archive my conversations ... for such a time as this.
First of all you certainly did make that false information about 2Cor3:verses 7-11. You would do anything to deny the real meaning of those verses. Too bad! I don't have to look up your comment, I remember it and I believe if you were truthful you know it too.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, That verse said the letters came with Glory. The people could not look at Moses' face because of the glory of the letters. That glory was temporary spark just as it reads. It was the letters that radiated off of Moses' face. That was temporary because Paul in the next few verses tells us the ten were only temporary and now the Holy Spirit is now more glorious and what was glorious is now done away. KJV 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The stones were so glorious the people could not keep looking at Moses' face. It certainly does not indicate that Moses was glorious, it had to be the reflection from the glorious stones that would, in time, fade away just as Paul wrote they did. How many times does Paul have to indicate we are not under the Law before you understand?
Ha! This is so bizarre. You just bypassed all of the Bible passage I supplied which refutes your false teaching, waved your hand to dismiss what the Bible clearly says and then continued on in your insistence that the Bible says, "They were to remain in their dwellings on the Sabbath period."

Exodus 16:27-30
27 Some of the people went out anyway on the seventh day, but they found no food. 28 The Lord asked Moses, “How long will these people refuse to obey my commands and instructions? 29 They must realize that the Sabbath is the Lord’s gift to you. That is why he gives you a two-day supply on the sixth day, so there will be enough for two days. On the Sabbath day you must each stay in your place. Do not go out to pick up food on the seventh day.” 30 So the people did not gather any food on the seventh day.

Let's see if you can take the explicit words of Scripture—which do not just arbitrarily clip off where you insist on stopping (i.e., "stay in your place."). No. The very next sentence flips your nonsense right side up: "Do not go out to pick up food on the seventh day."

So let's hear it. Take the above four verses of Scripture and see if you can flip it back to your false teaching. Or—and this would be refreshing—you could let the Bible read in its normative sense.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
There is nothing to Ha! about spark. The fact is that the Israelites were to remain in their dwellings. If all God wanted to communicate to the people not to pick up sticks on the Sabbath He certainly wouldn't have preceded it with the rule not to leave their dwellings.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That doesn't make you right. The devil causes all dissensions as he is always hard at work

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
That's correct, it doesn't make me right.

Something to ponder, if you wish. I have heard from seventh day observers that there have always been Christians who observe the seventh day,
and that these Christians have properly observed all of God's commandments.

Why, then, in 1860 did a new group have to be founded? Especially if we want to avoid divisions and factions?

Since the thread is about works in relation to salvation, this passage might apply
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
That's correct, it doesn't make me right.

Something to ponder, if you wish. I have heard from seventh day observers that there have always been Christians who observe the seventh day,
and that these Christians have properly observed all of God's commandments.

Why, then, in 1860 did a new group have to be founded? Especially if we want to avoid divisions and factions?

Since the thread is about works in relation to salvation, this passage might apply
You haven't heard that from me simply because it isn't true.

So you ignore the words of Jesus to change the subject. It seems to me that you don't believe the devil has the power to deceive even though Jesus and the Pharisees plainly demonstrated he does.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You haven't heard that from me simply because it isn't true.
Which part isn't true?

So you ignore the words of Jesus...
I don't think I did :heart:

...to change the subject.
It looked to me like we had exhausted the previous subject :heart:

I presented something to ponder. If you don't want to ponder it, that's fine :thumbsup:

Peace be with you, my man!!

It seems to me that you don't believe the devil has the power to deceive even though Jesus and the Pharisees plainly demonstrated he does.
I don't think the devil has the power to destroy the church that Jesus built. That's my interpretation :)
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Which part isn't true?


I don't think I did :heart:


It looked to me like we had exhausted the previous subject :heart:

I presented something to ponder. If you don't want to ponder it, that's fine :thumbsup:

Peace be with you, my man!!


I don't think the devil has the power to destroy the church that Jesus built. That's my interpretation :)
The devil destroyed the OT church and caused the Jews to crucify Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,297
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,742.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
No. However, the bulk of Israel can be apostate and Israel still not be destroyed.
That's not what Jesus said. Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD. You might read Josephus book Wars of the Jews to understand what happened there.

Luke 13: 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0