Works Relation to Salvation

[Leaf473]

That's not what Jesus said. Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD. You might read Josephus book Wars of the Jews to understand what happened there.

Luke 13: 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yes, the house of Jerusalem is desolate. Or at least it was.

That's not the same as Israel being destroyed.

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 23:10 - New American Standard Bible

Who has counted the dust of Jacob, Or the number of the fourth part of Israel? May I die the death of the upright, And may my end be like his!”

www.biblegateway.com

Back to the earlier idea, do you believe that the church that Jesus built was later destroyed?

 

[Gary K]

Yes, the house of Jerusalem is desolate. Or at least it was.

That's not the same as Israel being destroyed.

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 23:10 - New American Standard Bible

Who has counted the dust of Jacob, Or the number of the fourth part of Israel? May I die the death of the upright, And may my end be like his!”

www.biblegateway.com

Back to the earlier idea, do you believe that the church that Jesus built was later destroyed?

There is another temple in Jerusalem? The devil is working on destroying the current church. Read the prophecies of Revelation.

 

[Leaf473]

There is another temple in Jerusalem?

No, there was just one Temple. But house could also be used in the sense of "dynasty". Thus, the house of Israel wasn't destroyed.

The devil is working on destroying the current church.

Of course. But do you believe he has succeeded yet?

Has Jesus always been building his church from the time he started until now?

Read the prophecies of Revelation.

 

[Gary K]

No, there was just one Temple. But house could also be used in the sense of "dynasty". Thus, the house of Israel wasn't destroyed.


Of course. But do you believe he has succeeded yet?

Has Jesus always been building his church from the time he started until now?

And what Davidic king rules in Israel now? The Jews haven't had a king since Jesus and they killed Him. He was the last king of Israel.

I see you ignored my advice to read Revelation. It says the whole world wondered after the beast.

Yes, Jesus has always been building His church since He created us, He only had 8 followers at the time of the flood. What makes you think most Christians will be saved? Revelation refutes that idea. True followers of God have always been a small minority even among God's church.

 

[Leaf473]

And what Davidic king rules in Israel now?

You could say it's Jesus, or you could say it's no one.

The Jews haven't had a king since Jesus and they killed Him. He was the last king of Israel.

I see you ignored my advice to read Revelation. It says the whole world wondered after the beast.

I have read Revelation. Are you taking it to mean that at some point in history, there were no true followers of Christ anywhere on Earth?

Yes, Jesus has always been building His church since He created us, He only had 8 followers at the time of the flood.

From the time of Jesus until now, has the church ever stopped existing on the Earth?

What makes you think most Christians will be saved?

I don't know that I do believe that. It depends if we're talking about true Christians, or people who have the name of Christian.

But as far as the Church, the body of Christ, yes I think that is being saved.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:9 - New American Standard Bible

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

www.biblegateway.com

Revelation refutes that idea.

True followers of God have always been a small minority even among God's church.

Again, the key question, since the time of Jesus, has the church ever stopped existing on the earth?

Peace be with you, my man!

 

[Gary K]

You could say it's Jesus, or you could say it's no one.



I have read Revelation. Are you taking it to mean that at some point in history, there were no true followers of Christ anywhere on Earth?


From the time of Jesus until now, has the church ever stopped existing on the Earth?


I don't know that I do believe that. It depends if we're talking about true Christians, or people who have the name of Christian.

But as far as the Church, the body of Christ, yes I think that is being saved.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:9 - New American Standard Bible

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

www.biblegateway.com

Again, the key question, since the time of Jesus, has the church ever stopped existing on the earth?

Peace be with you, my man!

John 19: 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Cæsar.

Where do you comer up with all these nonBiblical ideas? The Jews are still looking for their Messiah/king.

And when will the wheat and the tares be separated?

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[Leaf473]

John 19: 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Cæsar.

Where do you comer up with all these nonBiblical ideas?

The idea that Jesus is sitting on the throne of David comes from here.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 33:20-21 - New American Standard Bible

“This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night do not occur at their proper time, then My covenant with David My servant may also be broken, so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical...

www.biblegateway.com

That there will always be a son of David available to sit on his throne is without question in my mind. The only question is whether Jesus is currently doing that or not.

The Jews are still looking for their Messiah/king.

I agree that the Jews are still waiting. That doesn't mean that Jesus is not currently ruling.

And when will the wheat and the tares be separated?


Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The wheat and tears will be separated at the end of the age.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:40 - New American Standard Bible

So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

www.biblegateway.com

____________________
Below is what I want to discuss, because I believe it ties in with the thread topic

the key question, since the time of Jesus, has the church ever stopped existing on the earth?

 

[Gary K]

The idea that Jesus is sitting on the throne of David comes from here.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 33:20-21 - New American Standard Bible

“This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night do not occur at their proper time, then My covenant with David My servant may also be broken, so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical...

www.biblegateway.com

That there will always be a son of David available to sit on his throne is without question in my mind. The only question is whether Jesus is currently doing that or not.


I agree that the Jews are still waiting. That doesn't mean that Jesus is not currently ruling.


The wheat and tears will be separated at the end of the age.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:40 - New American Standard Bible

So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

www.biblegateway.com

____________________
Below is what I want to discuss, because I believe it ties in with the thread topic

How can Jesus be ruling in the lives of a people who rejected Him and continue to reject Him?
So the nation of Israel is ruled by a king? That's odd. I've never heard of that. I've also never heard of Jews still having a Levitical priesthood that still offers sacrifices. That all came to an end in 70 AD because of the Jews lack of faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Leaf473]

How can Jesus be ruling in the lives of a people who rejected Him and continue to reject Him?

He is ruling in this fashion

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

www.biblegateway.com

So the nation of Israel is ruled by a king? That's odd. I've never heard of that.

I've also never heard of Jews still having a Levitical priesthood that still offers sacrifices. That all came to an end in 70 AD because of the Jews lack of faith in Jesus.

Then you probably want to use a symbolic interpretation of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 33:21-22 - New American Standard Bible

then My covenant with David My servant may also be broken, so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. As the heavenly lights cannot be counted, and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of My servant...

www.biblegateway.com

Then to be consistent, I think one would also want to use a symbolic interpretation of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:21 - New American Standard Bible

I will also take some of them as priests and Levites,” says the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Amen!

 

[Gary K]

He is ruling in this fashion

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

www.biblegateway.com

Then you probably want to use a symbolic interpretation of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 33:21-22 - New American Standard Bible

then My covenant with David My servant may also be broken, so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. As the heavenly lights cannot be counted, and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of My servant...

www.biblegateway.com

Then to be consistent, I think one would also want to use a symbolic interpretation of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 66:21 - New American Standard Bible

I will also take some of them as priests and Levites,” says the LORD.

www.biblegateway.com

Amen!

So the Jews lack of faith, in Jesus, in fact their outright rejection of Him, doesn't hinder Jesus' rule over them in the least? He rules by force over them?

Sorry, I reject your entire line of reasoning. It's nonsensical as far as I'm concerned.

 

[sparow]

The question is what Paul is referring to and what causes them.

Revelation 17 gives a long list of dissensions caused by the devil that will only be solved by the second coming of Jesus. Should His true church just submit to the dissension he causes or should it hold fast to the truth no matter the cost?

Quote. Controversy in religion is a hateful thing. It is hard enough to fight the devil, the world and the flesh, without private differences in our own camps. But there is one thing even worse than controversy; and that is false doctrine tolerated, allowed, and permitted without protest or molestation. . . . There are at times when controversy is not only a duty, but a benefit. Give me a mighty thunderstorm rather than a pestilential malaria. The one walks in darkness and poisons in silence, and you are never safe. The other frightens for a little season. But it is soon over, and it cleans the air. It is a plain scriptural duty to “contend earnestly for the faith once and for all delivered to the Saints.” _ Bishop J. C. Ryle. Unquote

 

[Leaf473]

So the Jews lack of faith, in Jesus, in fact their outright rejection of Him, doesn't hinder Jesus' rule over them in the least?

He rules by force over them?

God has always ruled by force over the entire world.

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 5:21 - New American Standard Bible

He was also driven away from mankind, and his heart was made like that of animals, and his dwelling place was with the wild donkeys. He was given grass to eat like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he recognized that the Most High God is ruler over the realm of...

www.biblegateway.com

Sorry, I reject your entire line of reasoning. It's nonsensical as far as I'm concerned.

Okay.

Do you believe the church that Jesus built was knocked down by some combination of evil forces??

 

[Gary K]

God has always ruled by force over the entire world.

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 5:21 - New American Standard Bible

He was also driven away from mankind, and his heart was made like that of animals, and his dwelling place was with the wild donkeys. He was given grass to eat like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he recognized that the Most High God is ruler over the realm of...

www.biblegateway.com

Okay.

Do you believe the church that Jesus built was knocked down by some combination of evil forces??

Do you see that reflected in the life of Jesus?

John 14: 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Seems to me you see God in the exact opposite light of who He really is. It's the devil who rules by force. He proved that at the cross when He inspired the murder of Jesus.. Jesus demonstrated exactly the opposite when He died on the cross to save us.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Leaf473]

Do you see that reflected in the life of Jesus?

Yes, but Jesus didn't always exercise his power.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:53 - New American Standard Bible

Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

www.biblegateway.com

John 14: 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Seems to me you see God in the exact opposite light of who He really is. It's the devil who rules by force. He proved that at the cross when He inspired the murder of Jesus.. Jesus demonstrated exactly the opposite when He died on the cross to save us.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Are you interested at all in talking about the church ceasing to exist on the earth at some point in the past? That's the part I think ties into the thread topic

 

[Gary K]

Yes, but Jesus didn't always exercise his power.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:53 - New American Standard Bible

Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

www.biblegateway.com

Are you interested at all in talking about the church ceasing to exist on the earth at some point in the past? That's the part I think ties into the thread topic

That's the point. He exercised self control rather than rule by force and force others to do what He wanted them to do. It's the difference between He and the devil.

You seem to have a severe misapprehension as to who God is. Where would that come from? Who would want to deceive you as to who God really is?

 

[Leaf473]

That's the point. He exercised self control rather than rule by force and force others to do what He wanted them to do.

Jesus is the ruler of the world, he doesn't always exercise his power

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1:17-18 - New American Standard Bible

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

www.biblegateway.com

Please let me know when you'd like to talk about Christ as head of the church, and whether that church stopped existing on the Earth some time between the day of Pentecost and now.

Peace be with you, my man!

It's the difference between He and the devil.

You seem to have a severe misapprehension as to who God is. Where would that come from? Who would want to deceive you as to who God really is?

 

[Gary K]

Jesus is the ruler of the world, he doesn't always exercise his power

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 1:17-18 - New American Standard Bible

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

www.biblegateway.com

Please let me know when you'd like to talk about Christ as head of the church, and whether that church stopped existing on the Earth some time between the day of Pentecost and now.

Peace be with you, my man!

So you refuse to even answer my questions as to how great your misunderstanding of who God is?

All you desire to do is change the subject. Why? This line of thought is right in line with the subject of this thread.

 

[Leaf473]

So you refuse to even answer my questions as to how great your misunderstanding of who God is?

All you desire to do is change the subject. Why?

This line of thought is right in line with the subject of this thread.

Is it in line with the issue of

...Christ as head of the church, and whether that church stopped existing on the Earth some time between the day of Pentecost and now.

?

 

[Gary K]

Is it in line with the issue of

?

What difference does that make?

 

[Leaf473]

What difference does that make?

It's what I'm interested in talking about

Something to ponder, if you wish. I have heard from seventh day observers that there have always been Christians who observe the seventh day,
and that these Christians have properly observed all of God's commandments.

Why, then, in 1860 did a new group have to be founded? Especially if we want to avoid divisions and factions?

Since the thread is about works in relation to salvation, this passage might apply

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:21 - New American Standard Bible

envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

www.biblegateway.com