Womens roles in the church

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Archivist

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Here is just some info. there are more. But even if the entire world went away from God's order and commands for the churches everywhere for all times. That would not make them right.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. God's order is not different from one church gathering to the next That would be confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.



http://www2.cbeinternational.org/new/E-Journal/2007/07spring/denominations first installment--FINAL.pdf
Really don’t have time to read all this. If you could just name a few of these “many many churches.” If there are so many it shouldn’t be hard.

What Jesus said is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. But Paul often gave his own views.
 
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LoveofTruth

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is that men need respect
And yet scripture corrects you again

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."(James 2:1,,9)


Loving neighbour takes both love and respect.

"8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."(James 2:1,8,9)
 
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LoveofTruth

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But Paul often gave his own views.
Everything Paul wrote was the commands of the Lord by the Lord in Him, unless he said specifically that what he wrote was not the commandment of the Lord, which he only did a few times.

Peter calls Paul's writings scripture and warns about wresting them.
 
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Strong in Him

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You are wrong no here , we do not read the word “own” in the real bible

My interlinear Greek NT, Young's literal translation, the orthodox Jewish Bible, the NKJV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible, the American Standard Version, the Darby Translation, the NIV - and possibly others too, all say OWN husbands.

The idea that there is one translation of the Bible which, alone, is the REAL Bible, is incorrect.

And I never said women can’t speak at all as many many churches today teach.

Maybe not; but many take 1 Timothy 2:12 literally and use it to "prove" that women cannot speak in church, and as they cannot speak, ergo, they cannot preach.

I also did not say women can’t be used in evangelism and ministry.

But that may well involve teaching.
If a woman tells a man that he is a sinner and his sin is against God, (showing Bible verses), if she says that Jesus came and offered his life as a sacrifice for sin, if she tells the man how to accept Jesus, be filled with the Spirit and the importance of keeping close to Jesus through prayer and Bible reading; that's teaching.

You can't take one part of a Scripture verse but not the other, and then have your own ideas about what a certain word means. If women aren't supposed to speak, they can't speak. If they aren't supposed to teach, that might rule out preaching from the pulpit, but it also rules out prophecy and evangelism - both of which Paul and Jesus allowed for women.

I am speaking of the church gathering in homes and the body ministry together as well as the man’s relation and rule in his home.

Yes, like I said, you are mixing up a man leading as head of the family, and a preacher leading, guiding, teaching and nurturing a congregation.
They are different; a different role and relationship.
A Minister could be sacked as church leader if he had done something wrong. This would be allowed, even good; disciplining him for his own sake; try to sack your husband, through divorce, and see how many judgemental looks you get. A Minister cam also retire, change churches and so on; try telling a woman she can retire from her husband, or pas him onto another family.

Acts 12:12 is one example of the early church meeting in the home of a woman - no husband mentioned.
I'm not sure about then, but if any woman today hosted a Bible study in her own home, she'd be entitled to lead it if she wished. Unless you're saying that a woman needs a husband to be able to do even this.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes the real Bible is the King James version for English.

There are many translations of the Bible. Some came out before the KJV, many more have come out afterwards.
They are all God's word.
 
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Sam91

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@LoveofTruth post #120
Um you are twisting the Bible here. Please read James 2:1-9 in multiple versions. I give you the benefit of doubt that the old word meanings in the KJV cause you confusion. The respect mentioned here is about favouring or discriminating people on how well dressed or poor they are. This isn't the first time in this thread I have seen this occur.

I shall pray for you that the other places you have misinterpreted meanings gets revealed to you. God bless you brother.
 
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I came across this old bit of document that is probably still pertinant

The only remaining defence that I can see that people put up against women being in grace now is that it is a future event when completion comes in. They say that in the meanwhile women are to be subjective to men.
The only thing that I can find to support the argument of partial grace and the only reason that I could find that someone would think that is because this age is for the new man.
The new man is the coming together of Jews and gentiles to be one in Christ. That includes all genders, nationalities and social status.
From the new Adam, the bride still remains to be brought out from the body of Jesus. Those are the men and women who will be His new Jerusalem, the bride, the heavenly mother of all living. The counterpoint of the Holy Spirit who will quicken the mortal body.
Women today don't have this role, nor do men possess grace with women under law to them. Rabinical law does not constitute God's laws or His ways.
 
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ViaCrucis

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in my case as I have helped to plant churches for many years,. At first I wanted all women and men to do all things equally and I did not see any issue with women speaking. But very soon as I began such a work the Lord showed me His order and the order of the family and the church. I saw first hand many women who were godly women who already walked in that command to be in subjection and silent in teaching and judging of men and their husbands. But when we started to walk more fully in this command, we saw some women who strongly dominated over their husbands and judged them strongly in the meeting, these women were so different than the other godly women who were silent in this way. But I have heard many women have revelations and prophecy and testify and pray in gatherings it is wonderful.

Sometimes if the men do not feel usurped or dominated by the woman who may speak in the meeting there is much grace But wen they become dominating and judge and teach over men this is not allowed and a warning will come and rebuke. This can cause fear in the assembly. Just as when those who sin are rebuked before all that others also may fear.

Let's see if we can do a run down of what I'm seeing here:

1) Claim that God spoke to you, which we have no reason to believe He did.

2) Men got frightened when some women had the audacity to think and speak, and it hurt their very fragile sense of masculinity.

3) Toxic church environment that runs on a system of fear and shame.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveofTruth

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My interlinear Greek NT, Young's literal translation, the orthodox Jewish Bible, the NKJV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible, the American Standard Version, the Darby Translation, the NIV - and possibly others too, all say OWN husbands.
And now your beginning to understand the subtle attack on the family from the other versions. The King James is different than most other bibles. This is an issue and there are many other doctrines that are affected in the new versions.
The family is very important to God and anything that makes women dominate or rule over their husbands and usurp their authority is false and dangerous to the church.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Let's see if we can do a run down of what I'm seeing here:

1) Claim that God spoke to you, which we have no reason to believe He did.

2) Men got frightened when some women had the audacity to think and speak, and it hurt their very fragile sense of masculinity.

3) Toxic church environment that runs on a system of fear and shame.

-CryptoLutheran
False in every judgement

1. Yes God speaks to all his children. If you haven't heard his voice you need to re-examine everything Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice". Also today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts etc . I can show many verses about Jesus Christ being in believers and speaking in them. You error here in such a great error i can not stress the seriousness.

2. No, no men were afraid of a rebellious, dominating, false judgement from the women in the meetings. We were troubled for her and others, and disgusted, and we saw that she was not in the spirit but in the flesh.

3. No toxic church environment at all. We have meetings in the homes as a family with 30 to 40 gathered in a good meeting and where all edify eachother as they are led by God. We have songs a meal fellowship. They are the most wonderful biblical meetings . The toxic environment is having a man stand up over all on an altar and do some sacrifices or ritual where all are bound up under his control as a lord over all and the spirit is quenched in all and they fight against the order of God and body ministry.

The fear of God is not a bad thing. Peter says "fear God" Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling for God works in you.I could show many verses about how we are to pass the time of our sojourn here in fear. But , just let me know if you want me to share them.
 
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Everything Paul wrote was the commands of the Lord by the Lord in Him, unless he said specifically that what he wrote was not the commandment of the Lord, which he only did a few times.

Peter calls Paul's writings scripture and warns about wresting them.
And you are entitled.to you interpretation, just as you are entitled to think that the KJV is the “real” Bible.
 
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LoveofTruth

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And you are entitled.to you interpretation, just as you are entitled to think that the KJV is the “real” Bible.
its not my interpretation, I simply believe these words

"37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:37,38 KJV)

1 Thessalonians 4:2
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."


and

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

and the few times Paul said he did not speak by commandment we have recorded as well

1 Cor 7:6, 1 Cor 7:25, 2 Cor 8:8-10, 2 Cor 11:17
 
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its not my interpretation, I simply believe these words

"37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:37,38 KJV)

1 Thessalonians 4:2
"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus."


and

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

and the few times Paul said he did not speak by commandment we have recorded as well

1 Cor 7:6, 1 Cor 7:25, 2 Cor 8:8-10, 2 Cor 11:17
Undoubtably quoted out of your “real” Bible.

This doesn’t say that everything Paul wrote was a commandment for all times and places.
 
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[QUOTE="LoveofTruth, post: 72413323, member: 378421”]No toxic church environment at all. We have meetings in the homes as a family with 30 to 40 gathered in a good meeting and where all edify eachother as they are led by God. We have songs a meal fellowship. They are the most wonderful biblical meetings . The toxic environment is having a man stand up over all on an altar and do some sacrifices or ritual where all are bound up under his control as a lord over all and the spirit is quenched in all and they fight against the order of God and body ministry.[/QUOTE]

“Toxic church environment” doesn’t describe the church I attend, but you go ahead and think that if you like.
 
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LoveofTruth

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“Toxic church environment” doesn’t describe the church I attend, but you go ahead and think that if you like.
You may find this clarifies what I am saying a bit better as far as order goes.

God's Order VS Man's Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. This spiritual order manifest in the body as we function in our daily lives and when gathered together. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and functioning of the church. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect.
Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. But If you ask many believers today, "how is a church built?” They would say something like, “well, first you save up money for years with a gathering, or one that meets in a school or community center and then you buy a piece of land or go into debt, hire a construction crew and you pay them to build the church building. Then you put some pews in it, build an altar and pulpit, have a Pastor over all and make a name for it, put a sign up on the lawn, register with the government and there you go, the church is ready.
Then the whole assembly comes in and sit in rows facing the back of each others heads as they look forward to the exalted man on the podium, or “altar”, who gives a message to the church every week.”

But this is not how Jesus Christ builds his church, nor has he ever built His church this way. Christ builds his church from the inside out and this work starts from within all believers. The “church” is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23) and a living organism. It is a spiritual house made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5), which is built up in the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is the starting point of Jesus building. It is not a man made religious building or a corporation with bosses and employees. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body, he is not the head of institutions and man made forms.

In God’s order, all believers must “...grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.“ (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying (or building up) of one another in love is how Christ builds His Church from the inside out.

In God’s order He arranges all things after His mighty working
in the saints (Heb. 13:20, 21) as believers labourer together with him (1 Cor. 3:9). This order begins in the peace of God and by His rule (or governing) in the spirit (Col.3:15) as we wait on the Lord for ministry in the body one to another. Only then can we grow up into him (Eph. 4:15).
All who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). For there is no life, salvation, ministry, or true church outside of Jesus Christ in the spirit. This is far different than man’s order, wisdom and traditions, that have dominated christianity for centuries.
Despite the multitudes of believers who gather in these religious forms, with their various spiritual moments, the evangelistic aspect and some other good ministration seen in many of them, there is a great problem in the churches today and it must be addressed. It is still true today that, “Except the Lord build the house they labour in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1).

Many christians who gather today may seem to be rich and increased with goods and think they have need of nothing, but many are unaware that they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” (Revelation 3:17). Jesus said these serious words to the Church of Laodicea, but he also said, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me” (Revelation 3:20). Jesus wants to dwell in the hearts of all those who will open to him and to “sup” with them, or to participate with them in the assembly as they gather. Without this participation of the Lord among the church they are in danger. Jesus said to the Laodicean church “I will spue thee out of my mouth.” (Revelation 3:16).
These words to Laodicea, echo to many churches today as well and this sober exhortation is the same. All christian gatherings should consider this question, “is Jesus Christ standing outside knocking or is he in the midst being able to effectually work in believers as they assemble?”
For Christians to be able to function fully as the body of Christ, they need to withdraw from man’s order and walk in God’s order, even though this will be very hard for some.

The commands of the Lord in this order were spoken of by Paul to the Corinthians when he said “...when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be
comforted... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 14:26, 29-31, 37).
Peter also spoke of this order and said, “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 4:10,11). If anyone neglects or hinders the ministration of the gifts from God to one another they will not be good stewards of the grace of God and they quench the spirit.
This one aspect alone is so different than most of man’s order today, where all the body is stifled and silenced by the one man pastor ministry or a few others with their programmed order, where all are bound up and unable to freely edify one another. Instead they are drawn to the exalted man who does most of the ministry. This is wrong and needs to change.
Scripture speaks of a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Never do we read of one man in the New Testament called “The Pastor” over all doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary.
Furthermore, we read of the church gathering in homes and having a meal together as they ministered to one another, in prayer and fellowship. The institutional church structures today with their programs and clergy, have hinder many of these functions in the church.
In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking up to the large building with a denominational name, called a “church”, and everything in between that is on the programed order, from the Pastor over all who often quenches the spirit in others, to their programs that do not allow the body to ministry freely, with the pastors sermon, the pulpit, worship leaders, women leaders, false authority, collections, dressing up, ushers, theater type environment, salaried ministers, tithing, tax breaks from the government, altars, rituals, exalted priest, the silent body ministry, show time religion, no consensus decisions, to shaking the pastors hand at the door, are all based on the tradition of men and not after Christ.

A Wise Master Builder

God’s order was revealed to apostolic workers and also handed down to believers in scripture. Paul said that God made him a wise masterbuilder (1 Cor. 3:10), to lay the foundation and to show God’s order for the churches. This understanding was given to Paul by God’s grace working effectually in him (1 Cor.3:10), it was not something that he just made up by himself. He then passed this on to all the believers wherever he went as he planted churches and set things in order.
We see men like Timothy and Titus bringing others to remembrance of Paul’s ways in Christ (1 Cor. 4:17) and the order he handed down for the churches (Titus 1:5). Similarly today, believers led by God should walk in the same order and deliver the same order to others, especially those who are called to such apostolic work.

God’s Order in Scripture

“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5, emphasis mine)
Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in and until this order was in place he diligently sought to work towards that end. The order Paul speaks of here was given by the leading of the Spirit and it was not man’s order and fanciful ideas of mans wisdom, programs and philosophies based upon traditions of men, but rather God’s order and commands as we saw from scripture.

Paul often warned christians against man’s traditions and order and to beware of anything that was not after Christ (Colossians. 2:8). This same warning is for all christians today and the dangers are just as real. But who has ears to hear this warning today?

In writing to the Colossians Paul said, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)
This “order” among the Colossian believers was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in the spirit. This is God’s order, not man’s order and to walk in this order a person must be in faith and the leading of the Spirit. No man can make this happen in the assembly.

To others Paul said, “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

Clearly, Paul speaks of an order here and this is how christians “ought to behave” themselves when they gather. How believers are to do this is given by the Spirit of God, as we walk in Christ and his anointing.
Everything we do must be done in the name of Jesus Christ, (Col. 3:17) or in His character, power, life and leading. God works in us to will and to do (Phil. 2:13) and to make us perfect unto EVERY good work (Hebrews 13:20-21). There is no room for man’s order in this.

When people go away from God’s order, they become “disorderly”. Paul wrote how to deal with such people and said, “Withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the traditions we handed down“(2 Thess. 3:6). Notice that, even if they are believers we are to withdraw from them.

But as soon as body ministry is alluded to and believers are exhorted to do this, many will cry out against it by wrongly using this verse to justify ther own man made programs and say, “Let all things be done decently and in order” (1 Cor. 14:40).

But this is not what the verse speaks of. Paul has just given them the “commandments of the Lord” for the church in the same chapter (1 Cor. 14:26-37). Then he tells them to do all things in “order” in verse 40, but this “order” is not man’s order but God’s order. How can man’s order cause a prophecy gift to happen or make a person have other gifts and ministry? Only God can do such things, and He gives gifts to the body as He wills (1 Cor. 12:11, Phil. 2:13).
Paul warned those who rejected God’s order and said, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant” (1 Cor. 14:36,38). If men don't follow the order given by God then they are ignorant and not to be received, and we should not listen to ignorant men.

Paul was not writing the commandments and traditions of men to believers as some may try to imply.

In another place Paul said, “And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Cor. 11:34).

Again we see that , Paul was led by the Spirit to “set in order” things in the churches. He also mentions “the rest” of the things he needed to set in order showing his zeal for every area of God’s order.

Paul taught all believers to keep this order, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). And he wrote, “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2). Can anyone say that such things were unimportant for the assemblies?

This order was for all the believers, “For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:17). Paul taught the same things “everywhere” and in “every church”. So are any churches today exempt? Why would any christian want to do anything different?

The Confusion of Man’s
Order and Traditions


“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col. 2:8).
All christians should take this warning seriously. Unless the word “BEWARE” is not serious enough? Yet how many believers today are caught up in the traditions of men and worldly rudiments, full of man made forms and philosophies? The traditions of men often make the word of God of no effect (Mark 7:13).
In the following examples, I will show briefly some of the confusion that we see everywhere today against God’s order.

Church Buildings?

This tradition of men has come from way back where men were drawn away from the apostolic order of meeting in homes (through the leading of the Spirit) unto to the large pagan type temples. The believers met in homes for close to 300 years after Christ death for the most part. It was around 325 A.D when believers began moving away from this with the building projects of Constantine and others. This did not begin in the New Testament church as we see in scripture. The believers met in homes at first having favour with all the people and not because of persecution (Acts 2:46,47).
Calling a man made building the “church” that Jesus is building is false and sets up in the minds of men something other than the true church, which is the “body of Christ”, assembled and called out where Jesus Christ is the head (Eph. 1:22,23) The Church is also the spiritual “house of God” (1 Peter 2:5). But man’s traditions hinder the very idea and function of the church. The very form itself of these so called “church buildings” draw men to the one man at the front and to look at the back of each others heads, where mutual edification is stifled.
Here are just a few examples of this pattern of meeting in homes as seen in scripture; “and breaking bread from house to house,” (Acts 2;46). “Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5) “...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Cor.16:19). “Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Col. 4:15).

The Pastor over all?

The one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time often hinders God’s order. This is also seen as the false “clergy/laity division”. This tradition of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church (James 5:14, Acts 14:23) and the various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some,
prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, All of these gifts are needed in the body for perfecting and edifying.
In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, in fact, we never read of a one man pastor gift over a church in the New Testament, doing most of the ministry. Instead, we always see a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23). Yet unfortunately today, this one man ministry dominates christan assemblies all over the world and people love to have it so.
The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all are commanded to wait on the Lord and freely be able use their gifts. This aspect of God’s order is clearly seen in the scriptures; Eph. 4:11-16, 1 Cor. 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Thess. 5:11, Rom. 12:1-10, Col. 2:10,19.
How can the church function as they should when the entire gatherings are dominated by one man and body edification is hindered? At best, these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big lecture. But regardless, this tradition of one man over all has hindered the church and the God’s order greatly. How can every one have, when only a Pastor gift is allowed to speak and minister freely?

False Authority?

Jesus said , ”Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:” (Matt. 20:25-27, Mark 10:42,43, Luke 22:25,26). Jesus corrected the false idea of men ruling over others by telling them to be “servants”. A servant has no authority in the world, but as they serve others, speaking and living the word of God they do.
The word “dominion” means to control and lord over. Jesus said this should not be among the saints and “authority” is not to be like the Gentile rulers. But many gatherings are set up this way today .
The pharisees challenged Jesus authority and asked him “By what authority doest thou these things?” (Matt. 21:23), they asked this because they did not recognize him in authority. Jesus was not a political,
ruler as they knew, but when he spoke His word he spoke as one having authorty, not as they did. This authority is similar to those christians who walk in the word of God today. The authortiy is not in a positional authority, but rather a moral, spiritual authority in Christ and in the ministry of word and their life example. Spiritual authority flows from Christ to the body, it is not a static office.
Paul said, “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy” (2 Cor. 1:24). The words “we have dominion” in Greek means, “To rule:- have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over”, from 2962, “...supreme in authority, i.e. (as a noun) controller: by implication, Master (as a respectful title)...”. Yet this is exactly what we see in the exalted men over the body today. They have supreme authority and control over others and many even call them, “Master of Divinity”. But Jesus said call no man master. A master means, “a guide” from “to lead”. But all believers are to be led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14) and the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (John 16:13), they have no need that any man should teach them (1 John 2:27). The old man is crucified, and they listen to the new man in the anointing.

Man made Programs?

In many assemblies today we see a program dictating the order of these religious forms. The very idea of a “program” fights against waiting on the Lord for ministry and the function of the body in Christ.
Usually in these programs there is a sermon, or litergy, a few songs, announcements, collections of money and no one else is on the program unless slotted in by the man in control. This order of man is not right.
Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a programs and a one man pastor ministry. We see a body where Christ is the head working effectually in every part unto the edifying of one another (Eph. 4:16). Paul said “...the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” (1 Cor. 12:7). And yet today it would be read, as “a manifestation of the spirit is given to the pastor in man’s programs”.

Lecture format order?

Another hindrance to God’s order is the entire lecture format in the gatherings. This is where everyone sits in pews and looks at the back of someone’s head and all eyes are drawn away to the speaker on the podium behind the pulpit where the so called ”Reverend” or “The Pastor” speaks his message, which is very much like a lecture in an auditorium or school.
As in architecture, “form follows function” and so if the function of a place to meet in is for a Lecture, then the form of the building will be with everyone facing the front. But in the assembly of believers, the function is for mutual edification, and so the form would not be in a large lecture format looking to the front. This very form fights against body ministry.
In the scriptures we see believers meeting in homes and edifying one another which is more conducive to body life. If the function of a church is for all to wait on God and edify one another and use their gifts, then the form of the gathering would not be
focused on a man at the front, but more of a family type environment to allow for the function of the body of Christ as he leads.
The giftings that God gives and the ministry in the spirit cannot be preplanned by man’s order. But to have a lecture, where one man prearranges the message under tight time frames where all is planned and he preforms on a stage or an“ altar”, is not biblical and cuts off the freedom of the Spirit in God’s order.
Many lecture type meetings may at best be evangelistic etc., but this is at the cost of the function of the church.

The Supper of The Lord

Today we see the Lords supper as a small snack and not a full meal as in scripture. Not having a meal together in a covenant communion relationship with each other is a great loss for many (1 Cor. 11:33).
How often today do we see the supper as a cracker and shot glass of grape juice, yet the word “supper”, means, “the chief meal”. The early believers had what was called a “love feast” and they did this often.
Jesus said to Laodicea that he wanted to sup with them, but sadly he was outside (Rev. 3:20). Part of that communion and participation is inward with the Lord and with each other (1 Cor 10:17). This is the same spiritual food all the saints of all time (1 Cor 10:17).
Having a meal together is a vital aspect.
“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...” (Acts 20:7). Having a full meal together in the time of Jesus was a very intimate thing and a time of close fellowship. This is one of the reasons they came together.

Paid Ministers?

Though some may not see this as a hindrance to God’s order, it is. When one man called “The Pastor” and a few others get paid a wage to minister over the body this makes their function dominant over others and creates a schism in the body. Why would the believers need to minister to one another If they pay the one man pastor to do so?
This makes christians dependent on the “experts” and those men called “Pastors” to do most of the ministry. But if all the body was to function properly under Christ headship, they would soon realize that they don’t need to have one man paid or exalted above the rest and that God works through all the body.
In scripture we see that Paul taught the elders to work with their own hands, “I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.“(Acts 20: 34-36).
Local elders should work. If some are sent in Itinterant work however, (I speak specifically of apostles, and evangelist) who are led that way, they can receive benefits to help them in ministry. But Paul himself was reluctant to do this.
Those in itinerant work have a need to be helped in the work. This is because they come to a town and do not have work right away and may be there temporarily. Paul says these itinerant “preachers” of the gospel (particularly apostles) can receive help. But this is specifically for itinerant workers (1 Corinthians 9:5,14 ), not for local elders.
The expression “double honour” in 1 Timothy 5:17, also can refer to “esteem” and “value” for elders , similar to 1 Thess. 5:12,13, not a regular salary as some make it. The same word “honour” is used in 1 Timothy 6:1 for servants “honouring” their masters. But servants do not pay their masters?

One Man Makes decisions
no Concensus?


Another hinderance is when the whole body is not allowed to make decisions in a “concensus”. But instead one man, usually “the pastor”, makes most of the decisions for the whole church. He may have some people “under” him who he consults or even a board that makes decisions. But all these forms hinder the order of God in the church.
The word “consensus” means, “to make judgements, opinions or decisions as a whole group”. We see different examples in the New Testament of decision making where they all came to a consensus, “Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men...”(Acts 15:22-25 , 1 Cor. 1:10, Matt. 18:17). Clearly, the whole church was all involved.

Song Leaders?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is having a “song leader”. This may not seem a hinderance to many, but again, by having one man over all as a leader in spiritual worship hinders every part of the body from having a hymn or a spiritual song as Paul wrote, “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Colossians 3:16,17).
All that we do must be in the name of the Lord, or in the character, life and power of the Spirit. This is the only way that we can truly worship, as Jesus said, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. “(John 4:24).
We must worship God this way, there is no option. But to have a pre-programmed order from a song leader can quench the Spirit. All things we do must be in Christ for “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually...”(Hebrews 13:15).
It is Jesus Christ in the midst of the church effectually working in every part, “...for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:11,12).
Having said this, it is not wrong to have songs in a book or musicians who can follow along with songs from others as they are led.

Tithing?

Many believers today are bound up under Old Testament law and other aspects to maintain their whole system. Tithing is one of those errors. Only the Levites had a commandment to take tithes as we read , “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren...” (Hebrews 7:5).
No Gentile has such a commandment. The priesthood and law are changed that took tithes (Heb. 7:12) and giving in the New Testament is not the same, as Paul said, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:7). Yet, tithing in the Old Testament was part of the Mosaic law and a necessity.
In Acts 15 some tried to put believers under the law of Moses (Acts 15:1,5). But the church concluded that they were not to be put under the law of Moses, which would include tithing as part of the law (Acts 15:24, and Acts 21:25). None should put believers under tithing today either.

The Pulpit?

Another unusual hinderance to God’s order is this thing called the “Pulpit”. In history we see a pulpit being used for announcements and readings in many religious gatherings. But eventually it was brought into protestant gatherings and it replaced the altar and sacrificial system of the Roman church. The reading of the scriptures was central and all the meeting was around the scripture reading. While this is better than the altar and Catholic Mass, it still replaced the purpose and function of the church meeting, which is the gathering of believers in Christ as He works effectually in the body to edify itself in love (Eph. 4:15,16).
This thing called the “pulpit ministry”, is where one man over all has freedom alone to speak there. But just having the pulpit there can distract from God’s order in the gatherings. There is no need of a pulpit if believers meet in homes.


Showtime religion

Another hinderance to God’s order is the showtime atmosphere influencing assemblies.

1 Showtime has its huge decorated theaters, and today many religeous building have the same, with their floodlights and ushers, and stages.

2. Showtime has its’s programs that are handed out and all the show is on a tight time schedule. This is similar to programs and tight time schedules in assemblies today.

3.Showtime has its famous superstars who have their pictures in large frames in the lobby and their names in lights on signs. Many religious places have this also.

4.Showtime has it’s actors, who rehearse their words and perform for pay. In many assemblies, ministers have rehearsed sermons and they get paid for a good message.

5. Showtime has its audiences with applause, who just sit in the chairs, and watch the show. Most gatherings today have their audiences with applause who just sit in the pews and watch the show.


The Dangers of
man-made religion


Even though there may be some benefits in many relgious forms today, the spiritual dangers are more so. The order of most churches today is; wrong, spiritually dangerous and hindering to the body of Christ and Christ headship. It creates a dysfunctional body, cuts off body ministry and the gifts from freely functioning, fights against the commands of God for the church, sets up men as heads of the church in controlling, dominant, exalted roles over others as lords and rulers. It creates schisms in the body of Christ at large, quenches the spirit in the gatherings in many ways, makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions, hinders the family environment of the body of Christ, and the fellowship in the breaking of bread, replaces the organic body of Christ with organizations and programs, sets up institutions, and entangles itself with the rudiments of the world.

While believers are to gather physically and be subject to God's order and discipline of the church. The church functions and moves in Christ and His leading in the spirit and inwardly as he works in every believer to edify one another, or to build up one another. The church is both a spiritual house inwardly connected to each other in Christ and a spiritual body inwardly connected as the body of Christ with many parts of that body each one working as they are led by God. But they are also lively stones built up and they physically gather together , having their flesh crucified and dead so that they can let the life of Christ dwell in them and manifest in their bodies. They bring their bodies in subjection to Christ and to one another in Christ as we submit to one another in the truth.

Elder/overseers, are simply more mature brothers who help and watch over (not Lord over) others and feed . Babies are unskillful in the word of righteousness but they can still move and speak and function in the body as they are led as well and to grow up into Christ the head as he leads.

Todays situation is far different from the true Christ that Christ is building. While there may be many believers in these religious forms and confusion. God calls them out to gather in Him and with the body and to let His peace rule or govern in their hearts and the Word of Christ to dwell in them richly, from this they will teach and admonish one another in love.

Let everything that can be shaken be shaken, so that all we see is that glorious image of Christ. Those that worship God MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Undoubtably quoted out of your “real” Bible.

absolutely

This doesn’t say that everything Paul wrote was a commandment for all times and places.

"everywhere in every church" says it all. God does not set one order for believers on earth until his second coming and then have it change, that would be confusion.
 
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thesunisout

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"And they remembered His words, and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles," - Luke 24:8-10

This is the first time the Gospel was preached, and it was by women.

-CryptoLutheran

So a woman can teach men if her husband is present. Where is that stated in scripture? And yes, Mary did preach the Good News. Preach simply means publicly proclaim a religious message which is what she did.

It doesn't say that Priscilla was under the authority of her husband, nor what her contribution was; for all we know she could have done most of the teaching.

I'm not here to argue, you're entitled to your opinions. The scripture is straightforward about this and trying to find examples to invalidate the clear teaching of the word of God is something I'll leave between you and the Lord.
 
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I'm not here to argue, you're entitled to your opinions. The scripture is straightforward about this and trying to find examples to invalidate the clear teaching of the word of God is something I'll leave between you and the Lord.

Forming the conclusion that a Christian who disagrees with you is deliberately looking for examples that will invalidate the word of God is a judgement. Implying that a Christian seeks to discredit what, you believe, to be the teaching of God's word, is not only unfair, but somewhat arrogant.

I'll leave that between you and the Lord.
 
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