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Featured Womens roles in the church

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Women’s ministry and roles in the church

    Before I even address this issue, I want to say at the forefront that women can be functional members of church gatherings and they can speak in the meetings, but there are parameters to this order as well and these become necessary when they overlap with the order of a family and their roles with their husbands and in relation to men in general.
    I am fully aware that this understanding is not easily received by many today especially in the world we live in where women’s lib groups and the roles of men and women have blurred the harmony that can and should exist in this. But as in all things, God’s word and His order is what we should always seek to walk in.

    To have woman teachers over men and leaders over all causes a hinderance to God’s order. This again sets up a one woman ministry over others. This is very similar to the one man pastor ministry over all and it has similar problems where the body is quenched from mutual edification and ministry in the gatherings. Having a male or female over all as a "pastor or teacher" creates the same error. But this is complicated if the woman is teaching and usurping and judging over the man. This error also extends to women in the gathering who may not have entered into a wrong oversight over men but simply try to judge and teach over men.

    Since the very beginning after the fall of Adam and Eve God said,

    “16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. “(Genesis 3:16)

    This word is echoed all through the Old Testament and into the New Testament. We see Paul touch on this in relation to women when he saw a problem in the Corinthian church.

    “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”(1 Corinthians 14:29-35)

    This section has been misunderstood by many and still is. If we examine this closely with the rest of scripture we will see that this section is not stopping women in Christ from speaking in a certain manner, but rather it speaks if them not speaking in judgement of their husbands and by extension other men in the meetings. It does not stop them from speaking in the spirit as we will see in this discussion.
    The first consideration that Paul makes here about women in the assemblies is that ” they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law”. This law must refer to the Mosaic law and verses similar to the one we read in Genesis 3:16. Because Paul did not speak the cultures of men and their commands for the church He spoke and wrote the "commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor 4:347 KJV).
    Paul began to speak about the prophets speaking two or three and the other JUDGING, this aspect of judging what is said, was not permitted for women, because it would go against the law of God and cause women to dominate and not submit to their husbands. Paul said that wives should submit to their husbands in all things,

    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church..,”(Ephesians 5:22-25)

    The husband and the wife are to typify Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:30-32) and to interfere with this example to the world hinders the lesson and truth if the matter.
    But back to 1 Corinthians 14. We see that this judging of men in prophecy was causing some confusion in the church as Paul said, vs 33 when Paul told them that “God is not the author of confusion”. this confusion related to many aspect here but included was the woman issue of judging or questioning their husbands in the meetings. It would seem from Paul's words that a man spoke some prophecy and his wife questioned him publicaly. Sometimes questioning a person is like a judgement, For example, the wife could have said, “ how do you know that is from God it didn’t sound right? Or they could say, "but what you said goes against other teachings, are you sure God told you that? Etc." this would cause possible back and forth contention as well. Paul says for the wives to ask questions at home not in the church. In this kind of judgment of prophecy they are to be silent . To rebuke or judge their husbands would go against Gods order for the family and the man ruling over his own home, particularly those who were in oversight (1 Timothy 3:5).
    But consider if a woman is over all in an oversight role, as we can see in many places today, and they had to rebuke and judge men in sin and their husbands. this causes a confusion. if the husband is under her in the gatherings and yet at the home he is the one to “rule” his own house this is a contradiction of order.We read in scripture a clear order when Paul wrote,

    "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;...4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    Notice that the overseers ( Bishops) must rule well their own house. It does not say "if a woman knoweth not how to rule her own house." But rather "if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house". This is God's order for the home. So imagine if that same family where the man was ruling his own house and he was one of the elders in the home meeting in his house once a week, where the wife in the meeting judged him and he had to submit to her teaching over him. This would cause confusion.

    Now some might say well that only relates to married couples what about single women who are not married?

    Here we must use sound wisdom and examine scripture wisely. In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul said to the whole church , “Let your women keep silence in the churches”. This “Your women would seem to cover all the women in the gatherings as well. Even though Paul adds more about married women, when he says after this “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: “. But right after this statement he says. “for it is a shame for women to speak in the church”. Paul mention women in general here which would include married and single women . He didn't say let your married women keep silent in the church.
    This command to the church was by extension for all women, because the married women are to be examples to the unmarried women, the older women and married ones are to teach the younger to love their husbands and to submit etc .The elder women are to be examples to the younger women in all good things teaching them by example to be keepers at home and how to obey their husbands when they do get married, if they do. Or how to behave around men in the gatherings etc.
    Can you imagine if a unmarried woman took this judging role because she was not married and during a meeting she had to rebuke and judge with bold questioning a man in the meeting. But what if that man in the days following was to be engaged and then married to her? And in a few months she could not rebuke him then? This again creates confusion. Or what if a woman took this oversight role and became an overseer and judged men and then she got married and could no longer do this?
    And what if an overseer had daughters in the meeting, should they also rebuke and judge their father publically? No, they should not. Or if a single woman was there and the man she was going to marry in a week was sitting by should she be able to judge him one week and then the next week when married she cannot do so? This would all cause confusion. The elder women are to be examples to the younger women in all good things teaching them by example to be keepers at home and how to obey their husbands when they do get married, if they do. Or how to behave around men in the gatherings etc.

    If men were to see single women judging men in general this would not help the single women to find husbands, and to learn to submit to their husbands in all things. The men in the meeting may be turned from pursuing then in marriage because of this. No, this judging and usurping role over men should not be taken by any woman , not just married women. What if some still say, no, it is only for married women. Then you would have a gathering that is filled with single women judging men and even the married women’s husbands and yet the married women can say nothing in this matter they would be watching the single women and many times younger women, judge their own husbands and they couldn’t do this in the meetings themselves. Again all this would create confusion and disorder . But Paul speaks more about this in his letter to Timothy when he said,

    “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” 1 Timothy 2:12-14)

    Here again we see that women are not to teach, and this must be understood of a teaching gift over the man, for older women can teach younger women (Titus 2:3,4) . A teacher gifting has to rebuke and correct and judge error as part of that role. Paul says clearly that this is not allowed for women over the men . They also must not “usurp authority” over the man, this word “usurp” means, “ to act of oneself, or to dominate, “. This again goes in line with Paul’s words to the Corinthians about judging men in the meetings which is similar to usurping.
    Some may try to say that Paul is simply speaking here of a cultural issue and that this is not for us today. But in the same chapter a few verses previous Paul said,

    “...I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not...”(1 Timothy 2:7)

    Paul was not speaking the cultures of men but “the truth In Christ”. And in 1 Cor 14 he was speaking the commandments of the lord for all the churches of the saints, not just Corinth, as scripture teaches.
    In this section of scripture in 1 Timothy 2:7, Paul goes back to creation to prove what he is saying, hen he refers to Adam not being deceived but the woman being deceived (1 Timothy 2:13,14) Here he is not speaking and grounding what he said on the “cultures of men”. This reference to Eve being deceived would also clarify another reason for women not dominating, judging and teaching over men. Paul’s implication, however it may sound to today’s world, is that the woman was deceived not the man implying that their may be something that the devil found in women particularly to cause such deception and to sin. Yes, men can and are deceived many times. But we must hear what scripture says and reject the modern traditions and worldly wisdom we see everywhere.Paul is clearly implying that this would be spiritually dangerous to let women teach, lead and rule over men.

    But, having said this , to silence women from all speaking in any way in the meetings creates a hindrance to the body also, women can speak in God’s order.

    Just as a woman judging, dominating or questioning her husband in the church is against Gods order, so also is hindering women from using their gifts and not allowing women any ministry in the church .
    While women are not to take oversight over men they may still , prophesy, have a testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy, sing in the spirit and pray and testify of the good work that Jesus is doing and many other aspects of love and encouragement in the Spirit to others in the body, do evangelism etc. All of this, as with the men as well, is to be done as they walk in the Spirit and abide in Christ leading. As we can read in scripture, Christ as the head of the body works effectually in the measure of “every part” of the body into the edifying of itself in love (Ephesians 4:15 ,16). This working in the BODY is not just working in men, but women also . All Christians have Christ in them. It is also true as Paul said,

    “...there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”(Galatians 3:28)

    While this is true in the Spirit and as we are all members of the body of Christ. In the natural we are still either male or female and certain parameters apply as long as we are in this present world. But if some are contentious here and say, no there is no distinction we are not male not female, if it is a man who says this ask him is he a man or a woman? And can he give birth to children? Obviously this verse applies to the believers as they abide IN CHRIST and this is related to spiritual reality, not the physical realm. When a man or woman have a revelation or prophecy for example it is not so much them that speak but they are speaking in the spirit. Jesus said similar to the apostles when he sent them out,

    “But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you”(Matthew 10:19,20)

    When a woman has a prophecy, that is not her speaking from herself but she speaks the truth in Christ.
    If a woman shares a testimony, prophecy, prayer, song or some spiritual gifting in Christ, and the men do not feel usurped or dominated over this speaking is not hindered. But, if the woman goes beyond this and usurps, (acts of herself or dominates over the man) then this is unruly and they must be warned (warn the unruly Paul said).

    Part of the reason for men and women’s roles and the order here is for the family as well. A family is a mini society and the family is very important to a God. If the family is in order this will reflect to all those around but if the family is divided and in disorder this will affect society in a negative way as well. If we look around at today’s society we can see the family under constant attack. Even the very definition of marriage between a man and a woman is in tension and horrible sin is creeping it’s way into our society and into the church gatherings.
    Yet in the church there is a liberty for women to function as well in God’s order that is. There are many examples of women speaking “in Christ” in the bible, here are just a few,

    “...But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...”(1 Corinthians 11:5)

    Here we see that women can pray and prophesy . And prophecy was one of the spiritual gifts given to the church and to be sought after (1 Corinthians 14) . prophecy edifies the church and is one of the ways women and men can speak in Christ and one way that they can both speak into the church when they cone together.
    Here are just a few verses showing that women can speak in this way,

    “ 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: “(Acts 2:17,18)

    This is all part of the Spirits working in the New Covenant. And there was no distinction of this prophecy being only outside if the church. In fact it is distinctly mentioned as being for the church (1 Corinthians 14)

    “...Paul’s company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. “(Acts 21:8,9)

    Here we see that Paul and his company went to the home of Philip While meeting in the home of Philip was a church gathering in his house we can safely assume that the daughters were known to prophesy in that gathering. At least all Paul’s company and Philip were aware of this. As scripture clearly shows, the church met in homes. Philips home would have had Paul’s company and perhaps others there and this would have been one place where the daughters could have been known to prophesy .

    But can women prophesy or speak in a church?

    In 1 Corinthians 11:5, Paul says ,”But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth”. Some will say this is not in a church gathering but this is speaking out side the church and that Paul is speaking about women who pray publicly or prophesy publically only. The thing is, Paul mentions no specific locations here for praying or prophesying.
    If we closely examining this section of scripture such a position is not sound. this passage extends to all prophesying in the meetings or wherever it may be done.
    This is an issue, because some try to use this chapter to say women cannot pray or prophesy in Christian gatherings, in connection with 1 Corinthiabs 14 where it speaks of women not speaking in the church. but by taking this view the function of the body is hindered again.The kind of speaking is what is being discussed. To have a revelation or prophecy of anything from the Lord or prayer in the spirit etc, or a testimony of Jesus, is not the woman speaking of herself. But God giving revelation in the spirit in Christ.
    But the silencing of women and their functioning in the body under Christ headship when gathered is found in a general way in many assemblies already, where most women and men for that matter are not allowed to minister in the assembly and where all are under the man called “the pastor” who in his role is unbiblical also. He hinders body ministry among all the believers, not just among the women only. So in one sense mist women are already silenced by today's order of men.

    In Gods order however, women can speak in certain ways in Christ in the gathering although they are excluded from speaking in judgement or dominating by usurping authority over the man.

    When considering praying and prophesying in 1 Cor. 11:5, Paul also includes men in this as well in Chapter 11 when he says, “Every man praying or prophesying,” (1 Corinthians 11;4). So if we are to take the argument of some then men also should speak in prophesy only outside of the church by this chapter. But of course this is not the case when we consider the whole of scripture and this is not the New Testament pattern we see with women either.Men and women can pray and prophesy in the church gatherings. As Paul said in 1 Cor 14. You may all prophesy one by one. And we know that women can also prophesy.
    The audience Paul is writing to in 1 Corinthians, is whole church and more than likely it was read in the church as were other letters (Colossians 4:16). The church he is writing to is not a building or religious system, but a gathering of believers in Christ who most likely met in homes as we have already discussed. Paul expected this letter to be read to the church . “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth...”(1 Corinthians 1:1 )

    What Paul refers to here is for all believers everywhere and not just for the Corinthians. this can be seen in the same chapter 11 , shortly after mentioning praying and prophesying, “16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God” 1 Cor 11:16. Here we see that what Paul taught here was for all the other churches of the saints as well. And so he is again speaking of believers assembling together.
    So in the gathering of the saints at Corinth, prophesying is to be allowed in the gathering and to be done the way he defines it . While it is true that believers can pray and prophesy outside of meetings, the whole context would seem to be for the churches.
    Now, some will see chapter 11: 17 where Paul said. “Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse”. This is seen by some as if Paul is now referring to the gatherings and not previously when he spoke of prophesying And praying for men and women in verse 5? This is not spoken here, Paul is merely telling them of another point of correction which he defined in their gatherings as a problematic area. He is speaking to the church and particularly when they gather on many parts. Previously he was teaching on aspects of prophesying and dealing with some contention about it and clarifying the issue. Paul wanted the whole church to prophesy (1 Cor24:??) , and this was not coming together for the worse. But the issue of the supper and the correction needed was a different issue and as Paul said they came together for the worse and he could not praise them . Paul had already praised them for spiritual gifts and prophecy would be part of that when he said,

    “That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift”(1 Coronthians 1:5-7)

    So Paul had already praised them for this but he could not praise them in coming together for their error in the supper. To make a separation from the meetings where prayer and prophecy were part of and to try and say they are speaking here of activity only outside a church meeting, is confusing here.

    In the same letter to the Corinthians in chapter 14 Paul says

    “Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy”.

    Here he is speaking to the whole church of Corinth and tells them ALL to desire this and not just men. We have already read in Acts 2 that the Holy Ghost was poured upon men and women and both can prophesy. Prophecy is not men speaking of themselves, but a God given ability and revelation. So whether men or women prophesy in the gatherings or out of them it is still the same gifting and God given ability . And all believers can seek for this gift as Paul directed. If this gift in the gatherings was just for men Paul would not have made such a general statement. The plain sense of this teaching is for all the church.
    By telling the whole church that they can all seek prophecy, this directly links to women prophesying in Chapter 11 and Paul does not divide prophecy to in or out of the meetings. The prophecy Paul tells them all to desire, is for the church when gathered . What can be clearer here that prophecy is also for the church, and a desired gift for all,

    “ Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe”(1 Corinthians 14:??)

    Here Paul shows that prophecy is for believers particularly and for edification in church gatherings. And as such, women can speak in meetings in this way as well. God told them that “your sons and daughters shall prophesy”, by saying , your “sons and daughters,” this implies that the family at least is aware of this and can see them do so. And this family extends to the family of God. For we are all brothers and sisters and we are all members one of another with Christ working effectually in every part and in women as well. Paul says as much here,

    “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith”(Romans 12: 5,6)

    Paul does not make a distinction here of men prophesying or women, since both have the gift , he simply says, that we are ONE body and members one of another. And we cannot say that one part is not needed, (1 Corinthians 12)

    When men or women prophesy Paul says that anything can be revealed to another that sitteth by, and he dies not make distinction here of men or women only the parameters of judging and submission of women in this.
    This is for the gathering of believers . But it is also for those who are outside if the church even when we gather, those who are unbelievers when they come among the church, as Paull said ,

    “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest”1 Cor 14: 24,25.)

    Again this prophesying is not done outside the gathering here but in the gatherings and is for believers and unbelievers and for any who may come among us. So in this sense, we can see that the church is gathered together as the body of called out believers and the public aspect of prophesying could be said to be spoken to those who are among us as unbelievers, for they are not truly “IN” the church but outside the church. They are not in Christ so prophesying to them would be in a sense, public. But all this prophesying can and is able to happen in the gatherings and by men and women as well.
    If men say still that prophecy can be done by women outside the assembly of believers but not in the church. This raises many strained questions. Like , what if they are in the presence of other Christian men and maybe their husbands outside the gatherings, perhaps in the streets and they prophesy? Is this allowed? Or do they have to be alone when praying and prophesying? What if other Christians walk by and gather around them and hear them prophesy outside and there were mostly Christians listening should they not speak then? This creates a unusual strain.

    But also note that when prophecy happens some may be convicted or judged of secrets. This is not the woman judging but God by the spirit and His word. Just as Deborah was a prophetess and judged Isreal, it was not her but the Spirit of God in her speaking. But in the church when the prophets speak two or three the other can judge , but women cannot enter into this judgement and espescally in judging or questioning their husbands in usurping authority over them in the meetings.

    Also praying is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:5 as well. And praying is also speaking, is this praying only to be done outside in the market place ? Are they to pray to be seen of men? Paul speaks similarly of praying in the spirit in 1Corinthians 14 as well and again as prophecy this is "In Christ, in the spirit". And women can pray as Paul said in chapter 11. This praying is also for the church and another way women can speak as they are led by God.

    Testimony is also allowed for women in the meetings as we read,

    “...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. “(Revelation 19:10)

    And as we have considered women are given the gift of prophecy and prophecy edified the church.

    Women can also testify of the resurrection and speak this way into the assembly and where men are gathered.

    “Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles”(Luke 24:7-10)

    We see here that the women were among the first to speak of the death and resurrection from the dead of Jesus. The apostles being gathered together did not silence them.

    But some will object and say. What if a christian woman has a husband and he doesn't believe does she still have to submit to him and obey him? They get upset at this point and angry and imply that she does not have to obey. But she must obey him unless he tries to cause her to sin against God. She ought to obey God rather than men. This may be similar to how believers are to obey governments as best we can unless they tell us to go against God. But Peter is clear on their question here as we read,

    "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."

    and yes husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church....



    In summation

    1. Women can speak the truth in Christ where they are led.

    2. This speaking may be in prayers, testimony, prophecy, and revelation as God leads.

    3. The kind of speaking not permitted is judging of the men or questioning them and any usurping or dominating over the men. This is partly due to the roles men play in oversight and in their homes and in connection to the family and the type of man as Christ and woman as the church. .




    I pray the Lord help me to speak truth here and that this would help the order of God among the saints.

    I welcome and love correction if it is needed. Please consider and comment.

    God bless.

    I can say my heart goes out for any women who has been gifted by God. God will make a way for your gift to be used and known. But let God's word and order in the gatherings and in the home guide you in truth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  2. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    What is the difference between a teacher and a leader?
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    God is the leader who leads by His spirit. A teaching gift is different than prophecy. A revelation or prophecy is an immediate unction, whereas a teaching gift is things that can be taught by others and knowledge given and learned by reading or instruction by others etc. . Yes it is still the spirit who teaches through the body. But teachers are to judge and correct others even if they are not in an immediate unction as the ones who prophesy.

    The simple issue is that Paul says he does not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.

    Paul says for men to teach other faithful men. Yes women can teach other women and children etc, and even instruct in evangelism etc. But in the gatherings teaching has to correct and judge and instruct over others with the word.

    This is a bit longer discussion about the difference between prophecy and teaching.
     
  4. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    I can't contribute much to this because I believe that Paul was speaking metaphorically about Christ and the church with whatever he was talking about. IOW we are all the women and only the Holy Spirit is to teach.
     
  5. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    For instance .... we should be conscious that everything that is said to the church is meant for everyone. Some if not many consciences are veiled.
     
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The scriptures I gave were for the most part not allegorical
     
  7. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.
     
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  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    You seemed to just ignore the commands of the Lord and many scriptures and instead lean towards the tradition of men and the worlds view. Sadly....

    I would say any church that does so is in trouble with God.

    If you read closely what I wrote I showed many things women can do in the church gatherings from scripture.

    And as God said through Paul “if a man know not how to rule his own house he shall he take care of the church”

    Your fight is with God not with me .

    I am simply a messenger
     
  9. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    My difficulty is not with God but with the very human cultural patriarchy of scripture.
     
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Do you believe that what Paul wrote were the commands of the Lord not the cultures of men? And do you understand that what Paul wrote was for All the churches of the saints everywhere of all times ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  11. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

    1 Timothy 2:11-12
     
  12. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    No and No. Paul wrote his understanding in the context of his time and place in history. That is my understanding and I do recognize that it is not the mainstream understanding.
     
  13. jovanovic

    jovanovic Well-Known Member

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    well, the bible states clearly that women are not allowed to speak in the churches and that they can not be priests. even children are allowed to speak in the churches, but not women. there is no denying that jesus liked males more than females.
     
  14. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    It has nothing to do with "Liking" more then the other. It has to do with "Roles" and God's Natural Order.
     
  15. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    yes and yet they can speak in prophecy and prayer and spiritual worship and testimony. The kind of speaking is the issue.
     
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    read my post again, they can speak in a certain way as speaking in Christ in prophecy, revelation, testimony, prayer and song in the spirit
     
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No, Paul said what he wrote were the "commandments of the Lord", not the cultures of men (1 Cor 14:37)

    scripture is very clear here.
     
  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    and as far as what Paul wrote being for all the churches everywhere, here is what Paul said

    "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"

    Notice, with all in every place. And we read

    "33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:33-38)

    1 Corinthians 4:17
    For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."


    1 Corinthians 7:17
    But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No it doesn't; that is the whole issue.

    Paul allowed women to pray and prophesy, and even told them how to do it - i.e with their heads covered, 1 Corinthians 11.
    He had female co-workers, commended women who hosted house churches, and Priscilla who taught, and wrote to deaconesses.

    Aside from all this, WE are the church. To suggest that women, who are part of the church, must be silent and not praise God when they meet up with other parts of the church and go into a designated building to worship God; makes no sense.
     
  20. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    The "Natural Order" in one society may look entirely different in another society. The Bible emerged out of a patriarchal society. In this society patriarchy is diminishing.
     
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