women as priests

[Simon_Templar]

So that one verse, taken out of context, overrides the fact that Paul had female co-workers, that Priscilla taught Apollos, that Deborah had been judge over all Israel, that both the OT and NT had female prophets?

As I've said, many a time, my Minister does not have authority over me - and that was true even when we had a male Minister. Maybe things are different in other countries/traditions, but it is not the Minister's job to tell us what to think/do, where to live, what job to have, who to marry, how much money to give and so on. They can't even insist that we go to church. Ministers can, and have, given me references for jobs/voluntary work - that doesn't mean I am beholden to them or that I even need to agree with them.
So in what sense does a Minister even "have authority" over someone - far less usurp, or snatch it by force as I'm told the Greek suggests?

This issue is often clouded by the fact that the modern church doesn't really understand the ancient Church.

Consider for a moment that the original question was about a woman being a "Priest" does your church even have priests? Are you talking about women being "pastors" or "ministers" because being a pastor or a minister is not the same thing as being a priest.

Modern Christians who no longer understand distinctions like that, or what this distinctions meant in the ancient Church, frequently do prevent women from taking on legitimate roles and jobs, in an attempt to be faithful to the text, because they don't have the categories to understand what the text meant.

You are absolutely right to ask the question

So in what sense does a Minister even "have authority" over someone - far less usurp, or snatch it by force as I'm told the Greek suggests?

The answer is that ministers and pastors in the modern Protestant sense don't have authority and they generally don't even claim to have the kind of authority that Paul was talking about.

What Paul was talking about was the authority that included allowing and forbidding practices, like saying "you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays" and people having to obey. Or the authority to literally exile people from the Church, not just tell them not to come back to your individual building, but literally to bar them from the entire Christian fellowship, the entire body of Christ. Or the authority to forgive sins, and NOT to forgive sins.

No modern Protestant minister or pastor that I've ever met even claims to have those kinds of authority, and certainly most modern protestants don't believe that their pastor/minister has that kind of authority.

Regarding "usurp" or "snatch it by force". Authority by it's very nature cannot be taken, it can only be had inherently, or by delegation.

For example. If I create something, I have inherent authority over it (note the similarity to the word author). I have authority over it because I literally own it. Someone else cannot come along and say "I'm taking authority over this" that is usurpation. I can, however, delegate my authority to another person.

Likewise, all authority ultimately rests with God and the only people who have authority are those to whom God has delegated it. God can also delegate the authority to delegate authority. He did this with the Apostles. He gave them the authority to pass on their authority to others.
Most of the time authority is passed on from people to whom God delegated it to others. So if God gave me an office of authority, I could pass on that office to someone else. This is one of the things that the laying on of hands was used for in the Bible.

While it is possible for God to make a new grant of authority to someone who did not receive it from the established authorities. This is very dangerous to trust because it is very difficult to verify. Anyone can claim this and it is incredibly difficult to prove, maybe even impossible to prove.

The point being, the things being done by the mainstream Protestant minister, are not what Paul is talking about.

As a last aside... If, by your own admission, your church does not have what Paul is talking about here, in terms of authority... do you ever wonder why?

 

[Strong in Him]

This issue is often clouded by the fact that the modern church doesn't really understand the ancient Church.

Consider for a moment that the original question was about a woman being a "Priest" does your church even have priests?

The church I go to is a joint Methodist/URC one. Neither denomination call their clergy "priests".

Are you talking about women being "pastors" or "ministers" because being a pastor or a minister is not the same thing as being a priest.

Pastor, minister, vicar, priest - all names for the ordained clergy who lead the church.
In the Methodist church, although everyone says "Minister", the correct term is Presbyter - from which we get the word "priest".

The answer is that ministers and pastors in the modern Protestant sense don't have authority.

They do - they just don't tell their church members what to do/how to live their lives.

What Paul was talking about was the authority that included allowing and forbidding practices, like saying "you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays" and people having to obey.

Paul had authority as an Apostle, some people have authority as Bible teachers, my Minister has authority in the role that God has placed her in. I have authority as a lay preacher.

No modern Protestant minister or pastor that I've ever met even claims to have those kinds of authority, and certainly most modern protestants don't believe that their pastor/minister has that kind of authority.

Not entirely.
Ministers/vicars can exercise discipline. In my home church, years ago, two married church members started an affair with each other. They were banned from taking communion in church. If I, as a lay preacher, taught a doctrine which was contrary to the teachings of the church, I would doubtless be removed as a preacher. If a worship leader dares to try to preach a sermon (which they haven't been trained to do), they will have exceeded their authority and will be removed. Ditto a lay preacher who dares to try to lead a communion service without having permission to do so.

Ministers, and lay preachers, can lead the time of confession in church and declare God's assurance of forgiveness.

Regarding "usurp" or "snatch it by force". Authority by it's very nature cannot be taken, it can only be had inherently, or by delegation.

Agreed.

Likewise, all authority ultimately rests with God and the only people who have authority are those to whom God has delegated it.

Exactly.
So if God calls a woman to be ordained, or to preach the Gospel, she has the authority to do that.

While it is possible for God to make a new grant of authority to someone who did not receive it from the established authorities. This is very dangerous to trust because it is very difficult to verify.

A Christian who says that they believe they are being called by God to preach, or be ordained will have that call tested by the church.
In the UK Methodist church it is impossible to be ordained without first becoming a lay preacher.

The point being, the things being done by the mainstream Protestant minister, are not what Paul is talking about.

Paul appointed elders to lead local congregations and teach the faith. That's what presbyters do.

As a last aside... If, by your own admission, your church does not have what Paul is talking about here, in terms of authority... do you ever wonder why?

Why, what?
Why I don't have a Minister who does not say "you will not eat meat on Fridays/cannot marry that person/must observe these rules"? Telling people how to live their lives is not a Minister's role.
Jesus came to die for us so that we could be reconciled to God, speak to God directly and have fellowship with him and even have him living in us by his Spirit. Ministers/vicars can give spiritual guidance; they are not there to take God's place and make pronouncements, or decisions, about our personal lives. Whether or not I marry, or have children is between me, my partner/husband and God not the church.

The only exception to that, as far as I can see, is if I, or another church member, did something to bring the church, and their ministry, into disrepute; ran off with someone else/had an affair/got someone else pregnant.
Then, the church would be right to enforce discipline - and many already do this if necessary.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Pastor, minister, vicar, priest - all names for the ordained clergy who lead the church.

The words themselves are not really the point, what the person does is. The modern office or "job" that is held by and done by the people that are called "pastors" and "ministers" are not the same as the office that is held by and the job that is done by a priest. They have some commonality of course, but they are fundamentally different. You don't believe the same things about your minister and his role that define the role of a priest.

They do - they just don't tell their church members what to do/how to live their lives.

Sure they have the same authority that any administrator of a club has over the club, or that any business owner might have over their business, but that is not what we are talking about or what Paul is talking about.

Paul had authority as an Apostle, some people have authority as Bible teachers, my Minister has authority in the role that God has placed her in. I have authority as a lay preacher.

Yes, and the authority that Paul is talking about is apostolic authority. He isn't talking about lay preachers and the like.

Why, what?
Why I don't have a Minister who does not say "you will not eat meat on Fridays/cannot marry that person/must observe these rules"? Telling people how to live their lives is not a Minister's role.

It is an Apostles role. That is precisely what "binding and loosing" is. Making authoritative decisions about what practices and disciplines are allowed and which are forbidden.

You react like you think that kind of authority is absurd, and that was the point of my original post. Modern Christians don't have, don't believe in, and ultimately don't even want the kind of authority that Jesus vested in the Apostles and that the Apostles passed on with the Apostolic office to the Bishops.

They have forgotten what it really means that Heaven is a Kingdom. They want it to be a democracy or a republic.

 

[Strong in Him]

The words themselves are not really the point, what the person does is. The modern office or "job" that is held by and done by the people that are called "pastors" and "ministers" are not the same as the office that is held by and the job that is done by a priest.

Maybe not.
I don't go to a church which has a priest, in the Catholic sense.

Sure they have the same authority that any administrator of a club has over the club, or that any business owner might have over their business, but that is not what we are talking about or what Paul is talking about.

I'm not talking about a club, but a gathering of God's people; a local congregation - THE church.
They have been called by our Holy God, have been filled with his Holy Spirit and believe in his son, Jesus, whom they proclaim. If you are saying that a non Catholic church is the equivalent of a club and the Ministers have no more authority than someone who manages a 5 aside team; shame on you.

It is an Apostles role.

Clergy aren't Apostles.
Except in the way that they have been sent by God - as all Christians have.

Making authoritative decisions about what practices and disciplines are allowed and which are forbidden.

That's what church authorities do.
It is forbidden for lay preachers to celebrate communion. Worship leaders are not allowed to exceed their authority, and training, and preach a sermon. And Ministers can certainly be disciplined and removed from office if they bring that office into disrepute. Church members can be disciplined for that too.

You react like you think that kind of authority is absurd,

No, I'm saying that in terms of our private lives - what job we have, our marital status, whether we have children and how many etc etc - clergy do not have that authority. They offer us pastoral and spiritual care and guidance - how many kids we choose to have is not part of that and nothing to do with them.
I realise you are told what to do by the pope and are expected to listen. But our clergy are not that dictortorial.

Modern Christians don't have, don't believe in, and ultimately don't even want the kind of authority that Jesus vested in the Apostles and that the Apostles passed on with the Apostolic office to the Bishops.

They do not have the authority to say to us, "you will get married and have 5 children/you will not get married and live a celibate life."
Catholic clergy demand the latter of their priests/would be priests; they cannot demand it of their congregations. (Or if they can, you have just given me another reason for never becoming a Catholic.)
It would not be healthy to get involved in someone's life to that extent - nor would it be correct.

They have forgotten what it really means that Heaven is a Kingdom. They want it to be a democracy or a republic.

Who has forgotten - non Catholics?
Yes, it's the Kingdom of Heaven - which is anywhere that God is allowed to rule as king. Clergy may give us invaluable support and/or advice. They are not God and we are not compelled to for their instruction for our lives, in place of going to the Lord in prayer.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Clergy aren't Apostles.
Except in the way that they have been sent by God - as all Christians have.




Who has forgotten - non Catholics?
Yes, it's the Kingdom of Heaven - which is anywhere that God is allowed to rule as king. Clergy may give us invaluable support and/or advice. They are not God and we are not compelled to for their instruction for our lives, in place of going to the Lord in prayer.

Bishops hold an apostolic office.


Regarding the kingdom. Jesus appointed the apostolic office as the governing officials of his kingdom. This is what it means when he gives Peter the "keys of the Kingdom" that is referring to the Old Testament Davidic Kingdom where the Prime Minister of the Kingdom holds the keys of the King's household, and rules over the King's household as his representative.

See Isaiah 22, starting in verse 15 for a description of this office in the Davidic Kingdom.

in place of going to the Lord in prayer.

This the kind of nonsense that Protestants always pull. No one is saying that you go to God's appointed officials INSTEAD of or IN PLACE of going to God. Of course you go to God in prayer, but you also obey and respect the authority that God himself established and ordained.

It is not respectful or obedient to God, to say "I only go to God" as an excuse to ignore the authorities that God himself established.

 

[Strong in Him]

Bishops hold an apostolic office.

We don't have Bishops in the Methodist church; Anglicans do though.

Regarding the kingdom. Jesus appointed the apostolic office as the governing officials of his kingdom.

That does not give the right to dictate our private lives.

This is what it means when he gives Peter the "keys of the Kingdom" that is referring to the Old Testament Davidic Kingdom where the Prime Minister of the Kingdom holds the keys of the King's household, and rules over the King's household as his representative.

God's children, when they come together in his name.
Not in their private lives.

This the kind of nonsense that Protestants always pull. No one is saying that you go to God's appointed officials INSTEAD of or IN PLACE of going to God.

Nor did I say that you were saying that.
I was making the point that Christians live their lives for God and with God; doing what they believe to be right and using the gifts that God has given in the way that God asks them to use them.
When making a decision, take it to the Lord in prayer - not to the clergy. If I was deciding whether or not to take a job, I might talk it over with my Minister - but she wouldn't tell me what to do.

It is not respectful or obedient to God, to say "I only go to God" as an excuse to ignore the authorities that God himself established.

It depends what you're talking about. Matters of faith; yes. Matters of Christian living, whether to get married/have children, go to university etc, no.
Scripture says that we will have to give an account to the Lord of how we have lived our lives. It would be lovely to say "that wasn't my fault, the church told me to do it. I couldn't help having 10 children and being in debt, the church told me I had to." But that's not going to cut it.

 

[Simon_Templar]

That does not give the right to dictate our private lives.

It depends on what you mean by "our private lives".

They have the authority to rule in matters of faith and morals. That covers a lot of territory that people might consider to be "private life"

 

[Strong in Him]

It depends on what you mean by "our private lives".

They have the authority to rule in matters of faith and morals. That covers a lot of territory that people might consider to be "private life"

I gave you several examples; what job to have, whether or not to marry, have children and how many, where to live etc etc.