Womens roles in the church

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Andrew Jeremiah

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That doesn't prove that God will never call women to be elders.
It's a Patriarchal culture and society. Men were heads, not women. There role was specifically outlined in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The authority to be heads of families in Judaeo-Christian ethic and authority lay with the men, not the women.

Note: This "man" that is head of the woman is unmarried.

In Biblical Christianity the born-again Covenant men are instructed and commanded to care for the born-again Covenant women in the Tabernacle, in the Temple, in the synagogues, and in the Body of Christ.
 
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Andrew Jeremiah

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That doesn't prove that God will never call women to be elders.
In this Biblical Christian life we must all who come to the Lord must learn. There is nothing to indicate that God would ever have women as heads of families. Actually, the opposite is correct.
 
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Andrew Jeremiah

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No they were not teachers over them or judging them they were simply witnesses and giving testimony of Jesus. Jesus is the one who rebuked them
Do you realize that any enemy of the Christian even if they later come to salvation, it will be MY WORD that God will use to judge, rebuke, etc. Even chastise.
 
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Andrew Jeremiah

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Not according to God speaking through Paul

We read,

“ 1 Timothy 2 - 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
You cannot take an instruction and command in the Church and apply it to marriage. Nor can you take an instruction and command in marriage and apply it to the Church.
 
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Strong in Him

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You cannot take an instruction and command in the Church and apply it to marriage. Nor can you take an instruction and command in marriage and apply it to the Church.

Exactly.
So a woman may not, and probably should not, be head of her own household; yet that does not mean she cannot be called to lead a church.
 
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Strong in Him

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They had a church meeting in their homes in Rome and Corinth. They would have followed the order of God for a godly home as Paul defined.

“ 1 Timothy 3 - 5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Ephesians 5 - 22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

Firstly, Paul was in Corinth, Acts 18, before he was in Ephesus, Acts 19.
1 Timothy was one of the last letters that he wrote, and Ephesians was written quite late.
What I am saying is, you cannot take words that Paul wrote and apply them to a situation that had happened maybe 10 years beforehand.

Secondly, none of us know what happened when Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos. Priscilla may have sat back and said very little, she may have had to ask her husband for permission to speak, she may, for all we know, have done most of the teaching. All we know is that she is listed as someone who taught Apollos - THEY taught the word of God.
If you take this to its logical conclusion, it implies that it is fine for a woman to teach, as long as she is with her husband. That would mean that a woman could teach in church - as a curate maybe - if her husband was the vicar.
That contradicts a literal reading of 1 Timothy 2:12.

And Peters direction,

1 Peter 3 - 1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;...”

1 Peter was written even later than Paul's epistles - maybe even after Paul's death.
Again, this is taking words that Peter wrote and trying to apply them to a situation that had happened 10-20 years before.
 
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Strong in Him

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There are Ekder women but they have different functions in the body .Now this section I quote is about elder women and widows but you can see some of their works.

I was using the word "elder" to indicate church leaders. It saves writing Minister/Pastor/Vicar/priest every time.
 
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DominicBaptiste

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I like to hear women speak. I think though the idea is that Jesus is in charge of the church and ministers to the men, then the men minister to the women, and then the women speak. Maybe the women do most of the talking, but I think the order of operations still stays the same.
 
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Strong in Him

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Not according to God speaking through Paul

We read,

“ 1 Timothy 2 - 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Let women LEARN in silence.
Of course; if you don't keep silent you will not hear, understand or learn what is being said. Everyone should learn in silence.
In those days, women were not allowed to learn, yet Paul is saying that they should be allowed to.

12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

We've already seen that women taught.
If Paul wanted to be quite clear that women could not teach anything, at all, why didn't he say that the Spirit would never give the gift of teaching to a woman, 1 Corinthians 12:28, Romans 12:7?

What does it mean to usurp - snatch by force - authority?
God gives authority. After the resurrection Jesus said, ALL authority has been given to me, therefore, make disciples ...... teaching them everything I have taught you, Matthew 28:19-20. Maybe the Great Commission doesn't apply to women?
As God gives authority, and some churches recognises the authority that he gives to some women, and freely allow them to fulfill their God-given calling, how can a woman be said to have snatched authority, violently, by force?

14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Yes, she was deceived.
She hadn't heard God's word for herself, as Adam had. Presumably she only knew because Adam told her, and when she repeated it to the serpent, she got it slightly wrong, Genesis 3:3, cf Genesis 2:16.
This suggests that she got it wrong because she hadn't heard, or understood, correctly - maybe she was even talking at the time.
So she could be deceived, because she didn't KNOW, or wasn't certain, what God had said. This ties in with what Paul said in verse 11, LET women learn. Why? So that they won't be deceived.

(As an aside, Adam wasn't deceived; he knew full well what God had said and deliberately disobeyed. Yet no one teaches that men cannot be church leaders because of Adam's deliberate disobedience.)

15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

Obviously Paul is not saying that women are saved through childbirth; we're saved by Jesus, no one else.
So what does this mean?

Paul had already taught elsewhere that women could pray and prophesy in church; prophesy is not a silent activity. So why, in one of the last letters that he wrote, is he suddenly saying that women should be silent?
As for "usurping authority"; as a Jew, he knew that God had raised up Deborah to be head of the whole nation.
 
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Strong in Him

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That contradicts a literal reading of 1 Timothy 2:12.

And actually, in this verse, Paul says "I do not permit A woman", not " all women".
"She" must be silent, not "they".
 
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Prohibit?

There is no bondage in the Church on this matter.

When men reach a certain age (somewhere around 55-60) married or not, they are qualified elders. Remember, the elders in the early Church were set up this way under the Law of God.
Paul was a Pharisee. He applied the same familial instruction in the Church. These elders were only senior citizens. They were usually already a grandfather, and in the "Jewish" culture the grandfathers were already head or leaders of a tribal family (Judah, Levi, etc.), and Paul also KNEW that the Messiah that came and he was of "another time" was the completion of Judaism.
So when Scripture says that an Elder must be the husband of one wife, that really just means it can’t be a woman. It doesn’t mean that must be the husband of one wife despite the plain meaning of the words.
 
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What I said was the meaning of exhort.

Yes, and the definition you provided means teaching.

And they were not in a church setting. There are different things that are done in a church gathering. Paul even says for the women to ask their husbands at home, but not to speak in the questioning way and judging way they did in the meetings. Yet they should still submit to their husbands at home in everything as scripture says.

"22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.(Ephesians 5:22-24 KJV)

No, they taught in their home which was where the church met. And her name is always listed first, ahead of that if her husband.
 
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So when Scripture says that an Elder must be the husband of one wife, that really just means it can’t be a woman. It doesn’t mean that must be the husband of one wife despite the plain meaning of the words.

In that society, no doubt the elders would have been men, or mostly men, so of course it talks about having one wife.
But,
a) it says ONE wife, not many, as some had then
b) if they must be a husband of one wife, they MUST be a husband. How many would be ministers/priests have been denied ordination because they are not married?
c) It doesn't say that this must always be the case, even if society changes and allows women to be elders/pastors.

Denying women the right to follow God's call to ordination based on one verse which says that they don't have a wife, is tenuous, to say the least. What about the ability to hear God's voice? What about faith, faithfulness, love, a good knowledge of Scripture etc?
 
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If you read Acts, the early church had problems with false teachers who were teaching Gentiles they had to be circumcised to be saved. Later, it seems, they had problems with Gnosticism; John and Paul both wrote to counter this.
The church at Corinth had problems with division, arguments, misuse of freedom, not observing the Lord's Supper correctly and, it seems, the misuse of the gift of tongues.
The Galatians appeared to have been influenced by those teaching that circumcision, and the law, were necessary for salvation; they were becoming legalistic.
Other churches had other issues - like, if the Lord was not going to return for a while, why did it matter how they lived now.

Nowhere do we read that the church had problems, or issues, over the role of women. Nowhere does Paul say that you can recognise a false teacher because it will be a woman; or that there was a problem with women who preach the Gospel. The Council of Jerusalem did not meet because some women were teaching in churches, or giving public testimony to what God had done for them.

Jesus taught, healed, and forgave women; he allowed them to speak for him, tell others about him and chose a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection. He didn't have to do that. He could have appeared first to the other disciples - the first members of the early church, who were all hidden away in fear.
He chose a woman- I believe - to restore women. Eve lost the Lord in a garden, Mary Magdalene found the Lord in a garden.
Jesus was the second Adam and restored what the first Adam had lost. By choosing Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to, and to proclaim, the risen Lord, God restored women.
 
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JackRT

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So when Scripture says that an Elder must be the husband of one wife, that really just means it can’t be a woman. It doesn’t mean that must be the husband of one wife despite the plain meaning of the words.

Nowhere in scripture is there a prohibition against polygamy. This verse would indicate that it persisted into the early Christian church. Paul does not prohibit it but does restrict it for this church office.
 
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Nowhere in scripture is there a prohibition against polygamy. This verse would indicate that it persisted into the early Christian church. Paul does not prohibit it but does restrict it for this church office.
Of course I’m aware of that, but that isn’t the plain meaning of the words. It does not say “shall not have more than one wife,” it says shall be the husband of one wife. Those are two different statements.
 
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In that society, no doubt the elders would have been men, or mostly men, so of course it talks about having one wife.
But,
a) it says ONE wife, not many, as some had then
b) if they must be a husband of one wife, they MUST be a husband. How many would be ministers/priests have been denied ordination because they are not married?
c) It doesn't say that this must always be the case, even if society changes and allows women to be elders/pastors.

Denying women the right to follow God's call to ordination based on one verse which says that they don't have a wife, is tenuous, to say the least. What about the ability to hear God's voice? What about faith, faithfulness, love, a good knowledge of Scripture etc?
I agree.
 
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LoveofTruth

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You cannot take an instruction and command in the Church and apply it to marriage. Nor can you take an instruction and command in marriage and apply it to the Church.
This is not applied only to married women. The verses apply to believers in gatherings as Paul wrote to Timothy about his work among the saints.

"14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."(1 Timothy 3:14,15 KJV)

"3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,"

And Paul mentions not allowing a women to teach over the man. The Greek here does not specifically say the woman here is married. it could be for both single or married women. Paul then goes back to creation to prove his point, (not appealing to the cultures of men as some try to say), when there was only one man and one woman.

The head of EVERY man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man. This refers to all men not just married men. But the married women are to be examples to the married women and to teach them by example, for the time when they may get married.


"8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."( 1 Timothy 2:8-13 KJV)

This learning of the women was in church gatherings as the context clearly shows. But teaching others who were men in the gatherings (or in her home) is also shown and this is the natural sense of the text. Paul then gives a general principle of eve being deceived and not Adam as part of the reason for women not teaching over the men. This reason is not defined only in the marriage situation. This is very similar to Paul's words for all the churches when he said "Let your (speaking to all the Corinthians) women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;"

Paul taught the same things everywhere in every church as we see a similarity to this here

"33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?"(1 Cor 14:33-35 KJV)

the expression "your women", refers to all the women of the Corinthians church, and by extension all women of all churches) the words to the specific issue of a woman questioning or judging her husband in the meeting are also defined.

and yes, Paul taught the same order to all churches everywhere.

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."

1 Corinthians 1:2
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"


also in 2 Timothy Paul defines who does the teaching and he said


"2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."


to try and say Paul is not telling Timothy to address the church with this instruction that women should not teach men nor usurp authority over the man is not right. And to imply that this is only for the home is also not right.


In the church we read of in scripture, the believers gathered as the church in homes. In those homes there may be a a man who is an overseer along with other elder/overseers having meetings in his home. During the week he will rule well his own home as Paul also said to Timothy in 1 Timothy 3. Now if the meetings are in the home of that overseer ( Bishop), his wife will be in submission to him in the home during the week and espescially in the home there as the saints gather and have a meeting. This applies to both the church and home here. As the saints are gathered. So yes, what applies to the home applies to the church as they gather in the home as well. God is not the authour of confuision. Imagine if the children behold their mother submitting to the father during the week and not judging him or teaching over him, then n the meetings in their home with the saints there she judges him and teaches over him. This would cause confusion.

"3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;


5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

 
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