Womens roles in the church

[bbbbbbb]

So why don't we ban women from these forums? After, this is a sort of electronic church group or Bible study, correct?

Now, doesn't that sound dumb???

There is no reason, when guided by the Spirit, that anyone would say that women shouldn't fulfill every role in the church. Every single one!

Would that include singing bass and tenor in the choir?

 

[bekkilyn]

Would that include singing bass and tenor in the choir?

It's quite possible. Many women can easily sing tenor and some can even manage bass.

 

[pescador]

Would that include singing bass and tenor in the choir?

I'm happy that bekkilyn responded to you. It would be nice if this discussion was kept on a mature level.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's quite possible. Many women can easily sing tenor and some can even manage bass.

Actually, this is true. My sister-in-law who is a Wagnerian soprano developed what is commonly known as her "chest voice" during her vocal studies so that her lower range is quite impressive. It is, I suppose, not unlike the falsetto of men.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It's very simple to prove that there were women apostles in the early church.

No its not easy, because there is no examples as I know of.Your assumptions are not what we see in scripture.

#1) Apostles were identified by doing SIGNS, wonders, and miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12 - "Truly the SIGNS of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in SIGNS, and wonders, and mighty deeds.")

No, not just apostles were to have signs, every believers can have signs following them. And we do read of "mighty signs" and wonders among some apostles. But we never read of a woman called an apostle with "mighty signs". So your assumption is not correct Read Mark 16 that says "these signs shall follow them that believe, in my name they shall cast out devils, speak with new tongues...

#2) The ability to speak in tongues which were not the native language of the speaker was called a "SIGN". (1 Corinthians 14:22 - "Wherefore tongues are for a SIGN, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...")

These signs could be done by any believer, men or women as we see in scripture. Acts 1,2 and 1 Cor 12-14. So nothing said about just women apostles or even implying that.

#3) Women were speaking in tongues in those days, in fulfillment of the prophet Joel 2:28-32 compared to Acts 1:14, 2:1, 16-18. Those "daughters" and "handmaidens" were equally gifted with this sign of speaking in tongues, the same as the old and young men.

Therefore, since women were then performing one of the SIGNS which identified an apostle, then they were considered to be apostles. And we all know that there was a division between "lay" apostles and the "chief apostles" - the chosen Twelve which formed the foundation of the New Jerusalem along with Christ the chief cornerstone.

we read nowhere of the word "lay apostles". And nowhere of a woman apostle.

 

[LoveofTruth]

OK. Again, the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ was a woman. It says something that Jesus picked a woman to be the first Christian preacher.

They told the apostles, (Believers in Jesus about the resurrection. They were not really preaching to them. But as i said in my first post I showed women were used in such things and can be.

That is your interpretation of Scripture. Many disagree with you.

No, this interpretation is held by man, perhaps the great majority. Your unique view is held by few.

I see, so God appointed you alone to set in order things in the churches? Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? You have much to learn.

Your trying to create a straw man argument against me here. Just because I said God called me to help set in order things lacking in the churches (that he led me to, but not to every gathering on earth that is called a church) doesn't mean for a second that I think I am alone the only one to do so. Just as a man say God called him to preach to the lost doesn't mean for a second that only he is called to do so, or that he would ever think he alone was called to do so. That is a ridiculous straw man argument and assumption in my understanding.

But you don't know my life and ministry at all and cannot make any assumption of what God Has used me to do in my life. There have been mighty works and wondrous things. I did not set out to do such a work, But I had a call to do so.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." NET v 2.1

The idea that women can't function at any and all levels of the church is absurd. Sexism has no place in the body of Christ. The above verse is the truth; it's not dependent on any time or place in history, as are Paul's comments about women's roles in churches that existed 2,000 years ago in a completely different socio-economic situation. We are not under law, but under God's grace.

I challenge anyone to give a single, valid, reason that women can't function fully in any church role.

I already in my first post showed many things women can do and how they can function in a gathering. Read my first post.

But as for the verse that says there is neither male nor female in Christ. I ask you are you a male or female?

There is two spheres we walk in the spiritual and natural. Paul speaks to both at times. He also shares many things for husbands and wives and their functions and roles, these things relate to the natural where they are men and women. We read all over the New Testament about such things for women and men in distinction in Christ. For example Paul says that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything and we read in other places they are to be keepers at home, teaching younger women etc. Paul also mentions the roles of overseers ( Bishops) and says they must rule well their own homes and certain functions for them as men. I could find many references to the distinct roles of men and women in Christ in scripture.

I encourage you to rethink and pray about that verse again.

Paul was showing that we are all one body in Christ and the male and female roles are not the distinction in Christ. And I addressed women speaking in Christ in my first post I believe if you go back and read it again. For example when a man or women speak in prophecy in Christ it is Christ speaking through them, It is not related to them being male or female..

 

[LoveofTruth]

So why don't we ban women from these forums? After, this is a sort of electronic church group or Bible study, correct?

Now, doesn't that sound dumb???

There is no reason, when guided by the Spirit, that anyone would say that women shouldn't fulfill every role in the church. Every single one!

The reason for a church order and the functions and ministries is clearly shown in scripture. I have addressed these issues many times in this forum if you look back at previous discussions. There are many verses.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If there was a command that no church anywhere, in any time or culture should ordain women, then God would not call women to be ordained and the, mostly male, clergy would not train and ordain them.
Unless you are suggesting that all women who testify to having heard God's call are lying/deluded, and the male clergy who ordain them are ignorant/disobedient.

First of all there is no such things as a clergy or laity division in scripture. This is a man made idea that came later. The kleros means inheritance, and all God's people are His inheritance and the laity is not found in scripture, but laos is meaning the people, and Gods people are the laos

 

[LoveofTruth]

You have quoted verses and drawn conclusions - that doesn't mean you have shown, or proved, it.

Hello, well your comment doesn't address anything I have said either way. You just say you haven't agreed. But you need to be specific.

 

[Archivist]

They told the apostles, (Believers in Jesus about the resurrection. They were not really preaching to them. But as i said in my first post I showed women were used in such things and can be.

Preaching is defined as "delivering a religious message" which is what she did. Don't try to tell me that that she was "not really preaching." You are wong.

No, this interpretation is held by man, perhaps the great majority. Your unique view is held by few.

Then lets see evidence supporting your claim that my view is unique?

Your trying to create a straw man argument against me here. Just because I said God called me to help set in order things lacki
ng in the churches (that he led me to, but not to every gathering on earth that is called a church) doesn't mean for a second that I think I am alone the only one to do so. Just as a man say God called him to preach to the lost doesn't mean for a second that only he is called to do so, or that he would ever think he alone was called to do so. That is a ridiculous straw man argument and assumption in my understanding.

But you don't know my life and ministry at all and cannot make any assumption of what God Has used me to do in my life. There have been mighty works and wondrous things. I did not set out to do such a work, But I had a call to do so.

I see, you have a call, but a woman can't have a call to the ministry.

And no, I am not making a strawman argument. Your exact words were "God called ME."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Preaching is defined as "delivering a religious message" which is what she did. Don't try to tell me that that she was "not really preaching." You are wong.



Then lets see evidence supporting your claim that my view is unique?



I see, you have a call, but a woman can't have a call to the ministry.

And no, I am not making a strawman argument. Your exact words were "God called ME."

To preach means-of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):--preacher(-er), proclaim, publish“

This preaching is to the lost usually that men should repent and believe the gospel

we don’t see her preaching repentance or the gospel she informed them or testified of the resurrection. But I already poke of how women can evangelize and share their faith and testify of Jesus.

as far as preaching repentance and remission of sins we read

Luke 24: 47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

and the straw man argument ynyou created was by saying things about me that I didn’t say or imply.

you said,

“I see, so God appointed you alone to set in order things in the churches? Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong?”

I never said God appointed me “alone” and I never said anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Straw man argument. Try to create a false image or impression of me and then knock it down. But I never said those things you made them up .

 

[Archivist]

To preach means-of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):--preacher(-er), proclaim, publish“

This preaching is to the lost usually that men should repent and believe the gospel

we don’t see her preaching repentance or the gospel she informed them or testified of the resurrection. But I already poke of how women can evangelize and share their faith and testify of Jesus.

as far as preaching repentance and remission of sins we read

Luke 24: 47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

One does not have to preach repentance to be preaching. She delivered a religious message. I will stick with the definition I provided.

and the straw man argument ynyou created was by saying things about me that I didn’t say or imply.

you said,

“I see, so God appointed you alone to set in order things in the churches? Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong?”

I never said God appointed me “alone” and I never said anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Straw man argument. Try to create a false image or impression of me and then knock it down. But I never said those things you made them up .

Don't tell me that I made anything up. Your exact words were "God called ME." I capitalized the ME to emphasize what you said. Those are YOUR words, not mine. I am not making a strawman argument as you falsely claim.

 

[bbbbbbb]

One does not have to preach repentance to be preaching. She delivered a religious message. I will stick with the definition I provided.

Don't tell me that I made anything up. Your exact words were "God called ME." I capitalized the ME to emphasize what you said. Those are YOUR words, not mine. I am not making a strawman argument as you falsely claim.

I also made a similar comment in my reply to his post, but I did not receive the same response that you did. What my comment led to was a rather interesting discussion concerning the nature of God's calling.

The bottom line, of course, is that anybody can say that God personally called them to do this or to do that, but it does not actually mean that God did call them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

One does not have to preach repentance to be preaching. She delivered a religious message. I will stick with the definition I provided.

abs I never said “anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. You made that up also creating your second part of your straw man argument.



Don't tell me that I made anything up. Your exact words were "God called ME." I capitalized the ME to emphasize what you said. Those are YOUR words, not mine. I am not making a strawman argument as you falsely claim.

I am not saying anything falsely you just won’t admit your error . It’s obvious to all who read on, or it should be unless they are biased, you added the words “alone” saying that I think God called me “alone”. That was a lie to accuse me of that you assumed it and created a made up word to say I was somehow thinking I’m the only one to have a call .

Sadly you won’t admit your error snd just keep digging in.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I also made a similar comment in my reply to his post, but I did not receive the same response that you did. What my comment led to was a rather interesting discussion concerning the nature of God's calling.

The bottom line, of course, is that anybody can say that God personally called them to do this or to do that, but it does not actually mean that God did call them.

What post number did you make to me maybe I can go back and look at it again? I may need to say similar things to your post.

 

[Archivist]

I also made a similar comment in my reply to his post, but I did not receive the same response that you did. What my comment led to was a rather interesting discussion concerning the nature of God's calling.

The bottom line, of course, is that anybody can say that God personally called them to do this or to do that, but it does not actually mean that God did call them.

Agreed.

 

[Archivist]

I am not saying anything falsely you just won’t admit your error . It’s obvious to all who read on, or it should be unless they are biased, you added the words “alone” saying that I think God called me “alone”. That was a lie to accuse me of that you assumed it and created a made up word to say I was somehow thinking I’m the only one to have a call .

Sadly you won’t admit your error snd just keep digging in.

And if you had said that God called you and others you would be correct, but that isn't what you said. Your miswording, not mine. Now you are falsely accusing me of being a liar. I am not. I am going by what you wrote.

You have already said that women are not called to the ministry, even though I have posted scripture showing women deacons, preachers and apostles. You have dismissed all that I posted. Apparently, you believe that your interpretation is the only correct interpretation of scripture.

To get this back on topic, if you opposed the ordination of women do not join a church that ordains them. Problem solved.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What post number did you make to me maybe I can go back and look at it again? I may need to say similar things to your post.

Would that actually be profitable to anyone except, perhaps, yourself? You have made your point with Archivist and there is no particular reason for you to spread your net to entangle me in your discussion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And if you had said that God called you and others you would be correct, but that isn't what you said. Your miswording, not mine. Now you are falsely accusing me of being a liar. I am not. I am going by what you wrote.

You have already said that women are not called to the ministry, even though I have posted scripture showing women deacons, preachers and apostles. You have dismissed all that I posted. Apparently, you believe that your interpretation is the only correct interpretation of scripture.

To get this back on topic, if you opposed the ordination of women do not join a church that ordains them. Problem solved.

That is quite true. It applies to any and all doctrines. If you want a tightly structure religious bureaucracy with its anointed leader infallibly declaring doctrine for you, there is a large denomination which will do that. If not, then there is a wide variety of other denominations which do not. In Christianity we have essentially a market economy where individuals can join a church which fits their understanding of spiritual matters.