Womens roles in the church

[LoveofTruth]

Actually Paul recognized a number of women who held leadership positions in the church.

No he didn’t

yes women can minister as I said in my first post on this thread. But never in authority over the man. And if the woman is married we read she is to submit to her husband in all things and we never read of women overseers . But I have shown a lot of this in my many post through this thread if you read back

 

[Strong in Him]

Many of your statements are broadly accurate - indeed, precisely so - although they do not take all of Paul's teaching on the matter fully into account.

But Paul didn't teach on this matter; that's the problem.
Nowhere did he say, "men can be ordained, wear dog collars and be in leadership in the church, but women never can be - ever; no matter what the culture. This is a command from God for all time."
He made a statement in 1 Timothy 2:12 about women being silent, not teaching or usurping a man's authority - and people can't even decide on how to interpret that.
Some on these forums have said "women being silent isn't to be taken literally; they can pray, prophesy and worship God. But the next words, in the same verse, ARE to be taken literally, so that means that as women can't teach or be in authority over a man [whatever that means], they clearly can't preach or be ordained." Some have said, "Scripture says that women must be silent so they must be; they can't even worship or say 'Amen'." Believe me, I have read statements like that on here over the years - but at least they practice what they believe.

I don't see that this matter is ever going to be resolved.
Those of us who preach know that God has called us to do so, that we do it to obey him; whatever our natural feelings and temperament, and know that he inspires us and blesses our words. God does not contradict his word, so as he is calling women into this role today, clearly he cannot have forbidden it in Scripture.
Those who read Scripture a certain way and who disagree with women in Ministry, are always going to say that God has NOT called us, and that we are disobedient, deluded, feminists or pandering to our own egos. Oh yes, and that female preachers is a sure sign of end times. God does not contradict his word, and as they believe that his word clearly forbids this, the only explanation is that women from all over the world are choosing to deliberately disobey.

If there was very clear teaching, from Paul, Jesus, Peter, James and everyone else, I believe women would obey it. We do not set out to rebel against Scripture, whatever anyone else thinks.

Sorry, not all of that was aimed at you; I get a little carried away sometimes.

 

[Strong in Him]

But I have shown a lot of this in my many post through this thread if you read back

You have quoted verses and drawn conclusions - that doesn't mean you have shown, or proved, it.

 

[Archivist]

No he didn’t

Yes, he did. Try reading the Bible. Mary Magdalene was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. Phoebe was a Deacon and represented Paul at the church in Rome. Priscilla taught, and was given prominence by being listed ahead of her husband. Junia was an apostle.

yes women can minister as I said in my first post on this thread. But never in authority over the man. And if the woman is married we read she is to submit to her husband in all things and we never read of women overseers . But I have shown a lot of this in my many post through this thread if you read back

Yes, and I and others have shown just as much showing that women can minister, that they can have authority over men.

As I have said multiple times, if you don’t believe that women can serve as ministers, don’t join a church that ordains women. That is the easiest solution. But don’t tell those of us who believe that women can serve as pastors that they cannot. They can.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, he did. Try reading the Bible. Mary Magdalene was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. Phoebe was a Deacon and represented Paul at the church in Rome. Priscilla taught, and was given prominence by being listed ahead of her husband. Junia was an apostle.



Yes, and I and others have shown just as much showing that women can minister, that they can have authority over men.

As I have said multiple times, if you don’t believe that women can serve as ministers, don’t join a church that ordains women. That is the easiest solution. But don’t tell those of us who believe that women can serve as pastors that they cannot. They can.

If you read my first post you will see that I covered women in evangelism and showed that they can testify of Christ.
Also we never read of a woman apostle. They were of note among the apostles. Simply meaning they were very useful in helping and they took a note of them.

Also for you to say if I don’t agree with a churches order I should just leave them alone and not say anything is false. God called me to help set in order things in the churches and to speak of these things. Also to just avoid any correction by saying “then don’t join a church that ordains women” is false and by the way, the things I speak of are for all the churches of the saints. .

 

[Strong in Him]

Also to just avoid any correction by saying “don’t join a church that ordains women” is false abs by the way the things I speak of are for all the churches of the saints. .

If there was a command that no church anywhere, in any time or culture should ordain women, then God would not call women to be ordained and the, mostly male, clergy would not train and ordain them.
Unless you are suggesting that all women who testify to having heard God's call are lying/deluded, and the male clergy who ordain them are ignorant/disobedient.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you read my first post you will see that I covered women in evangelism and showed that they can testify of Christ.
Also we never read of a woman apostle. They were of note among the apostles. Simply meaning they were very useful in helping abs they took a note of them.

Also fir you to say if I don’t agree with a churches order I should just leave them alone and not say anything is false. Gid called me to help set in order things in the churches abs to speak of these things. Also to just avoid any correction by saying “don’t join a church that ordains women” is false abs by the way the things I speak of are for all the churches of the saints. .

One of the issues you touched on in the last sentence is the concept of "all the churches of the saints". I trust that you agree with me that not all assemblies of people that call themselves churches are composed of saints. For example, we have "churches" such as the CHURCH of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day SAINTS (aka Mormons) or the Jehovah's Witnesses. I would be frankly amazed if God has called you to set things in order in those churches. In fact, I think that, at the very best, your calling is actually pretty much limited to chiding folks here at CF for unbiblical beliefs as well as churches within your personal orbit, which probably means churches of your denomination or affiliation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If there was a command that no church anywhere, in any time or culture should ordain women, then God would not call women to be ordained and the, mostly male, clergy would not train and ordain them.
Unless you are suggesting that all women who testify to having heard God's call are lying/deluded, and the male clergy who ordain them are ignorant/disobedient.

Actually, there is no command for any church any where at any time in any place to ordain anyone to a salaried occupation commonly known today as "pastor", "priest", "preacher", etc.

 

[pescador]

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." NET v 2.1

The idea that women can't function at any and all levels of the church is absurd. Sexism has no place in the body of Christ. The above verse is the truth; it's not dependent on any time or place in history, as are Paul's comments about women's roles in churches that existed 2,000 years ago in a completely different socio-economic situation. We are not under law, but under God's grace.

I challenge anyone to give a single, valid, reason that women can't function fully in any church role.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Also we never read of a woman apostle.

It's very simple to prove that there were women apostles in the early church. Compare scripture with scripture.

#1) Apostles were identified by doing SIGNS, wonders, and miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12 - "Truly the SIGNS of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in SIGNS, and wonders, and mighty deeds.")

#2) The ability to speak in tongues which were not the native language of the speaker was called a "SIGN". (1 Corinthians 14:22 - "Wherefore tongues are for a SIGN, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...")

#3) Women were speaking in tongues in those days, in fulfillment of the prophet Joel 2:28-32 compared to Acts 1:14, 2:1, 16-18. Those "daughters" and "handmaidens" were equally gifted with this sign of speaking in tongues, the same as the old and young men.

Therefore, since women were then performing one of the SIGNS which identified an apostle, then they were considered to be apostles. And we all know that there was a division between "lay" apostles and the "chief apostles" - the chosen Twelve which formed the foundation of the New Jerusalem along with Christ the chief cornerstone.

 

[Paidiske]

Actually, there is no command for any church any where at any time in any place to ordain anyone to a salaried occupation commonly known today as "pastor", "priest", "preacher", etc.

While that's true, there are clear leadership roles in the NT church, and Paul set out the principle that they should be supported by the church materially.

 

[bbbbbbb]

While that's true, there are clear leadership roles in the NT church, and Paul set out the principle that they should be supported by the church materially.

I agree with you. I merely posted a sharply two-edged observation. For those who insist on limiting ministry, especially salaried occupational ministry, to a particular segment of the church there is no such prohibition. On the other hand, for those who would open wide the doors to anyone and everyone who thinks God has called them, there is no such invitation.

 

[Paidiske]

On the other hand, for those who would open wide the doors to anyone and everyone who thinks God has called them, there is no such invitation.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you mean that vocation must be carefully discerned and tested, I don't disagree. But if you mean that some people should not have access even to processes of discerning and testing vocation, I completely disagree.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you mean that vocation must be carefully discerned and tested, I don't disagree. But if you mean that some people should not have access even to processes of discerning and testing vocation, I completely disagree.

An example of what I mean is Post #705 above where Love of Truth wrote, "Gid called me to help set in order things in the churches abs to speak of these things." Neither you nor myself knows whether this is actually true.

Many years ago a young man came to the Sunday morning service at our church for two or three weeks, after which he informed the church leaders that God had called him to preach in our church. Needless to say, he ended up surprised and disappointed and his concept of God's will was shaken.

Lest you think this was a unique situation, about twenty years later I had moved and was attending another church. A young assistant pastor at another church in town had been relieved (shall I say) of his responsibilities at the church. He then discovered our church and on the second Sunday on which he visited he passed out his business cards to the members, announcing to us that God had called him to be our pastor. He was eventually disillusioned and disappointed with us.

The reality is that the human heart is amazingly deceptive, as Jeremiah noted, not to mention desperately wicked so that one's concepts of what one's God leads them to think and do are very often quite incorrect.

 

[Paidiske]

Ahh yes. I see what you mean. A person can't just decide they're called to some ministry, no matter how convinced they are. That call must be tested and affirmed by the church, and the ministry which flows from that must be accountable to the church.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." NET v 2.1

The idea that women can't function at any and all levels of the church is absurd. Sexism has no place in the body of Christ. The above verse is the truth; it's not dependent on any time or place in history, as are Paul's comments about women's roles in churches that existed 2,000 years ago in a completely different socio-economic situation. We are not under law, but under God's grace.

I challenge anyone to give a single, valid, reason that women can't function fully in any church role.

Read my first post in this site on page 1

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ahh yes. I see what you mean. A person can't just decide they're called to some ministry, no matter how convinced they are. That call must be tested and affirmed by the church, and the ministry which flows from that must be accountable to the church.

Precisely!

 

[Archivist]

If you read my first post you will see that I covered women in evangelism and showed that they can testify of Christ.

OK. Again, the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ was a woman. It says something that Jesus picked a woman to be the first Christian preacher.

Also we never read of a woman apostle. They were of note among the apostles. Simply meaning they were very useful in helping and they took a note of them.

That is your interpretation of Scripture. Many disagree with you.

Also for you to say if I don’t agree with a churches order I should just leave them alone and not say anything is false. God called me to help set in order things in the churches and to speak of these things. Also to just avoid any correction by saying “then don’t join a church that ordains women” is false and by the way, the things I speak of are for all the churches of the saints. .

I see, so God appointed you alone to set in order things in the churches? Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? You have much to learn.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ahh yes. I see what you mean. A person can't just decide they're called to some ministry, no matter how convinced they are. That call must be tested and affirmed by the church, and the ministry which flows from that must be accountable to the church.

I would also add the criteria for testing and affirmation, the standards, as it were, should be completely transparent and also based as much as possible on objective criteria, and spiritual formation programs should exist to help people who are not objectively disqualified (in the ancient church, this would include anyone in a polygamous murder or who had committed homicide even accidentally since baptism, among other requirements) mature and develop towards vocation, so that fewer people are hurt as a result of what is in some denominations a completely subjective and political process; the Ecumenical Patriarchate historically has had something of a reputation for discrimination against people who aren’t deemed sufficiently “hellenic.”

This is certainly not the case with any other Eastern Orthodox churches including the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, and even including the Athonite monasteries and the monasteries founded in the US by Elder Ephraim, which are technically under the Ecumenical Patriarch. As an example, in Canada a priest sued the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America for racial discrimination because he was arbitrarily assigned to an extremely small parish and paid something like $900/mo (in Loonies, as we call Canadian dollars south of the border, not US dollars, which is a really low amount; by the way Canadian Maple Leaf gold coins are extremely popular in the US as they were available for many years before the US mint offered competing products; my grandparents had a number of them hidden in the walls of their house).

 

[pescador]

So why don't we ban women from these forums? After, this is a sort of electronic church group or Bible study, correct?

Now, doesn't that sound dumb???

There is no reason, when guided by the Spirit, that anyone would say that women shouldn't fulfill every role in the church. Every single one!