Women, Head Coverings, and Hillsong.

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brinny

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Yes, I have been reading, inbetween sleeping, since the first post. I say this kindly.. have you read them all as well?

I used to live with someone who was incredibly sweet, a kind heart, searching for God's love, but when she came to church with me one time we ended up at a prayer meeting as she wanted to go where someone prayed (who has never prayed such things before) thank you God that you don't care about the outside of us what we wear etc. Though the words were true sadly it came across as judging because let's face it if he didn't care himself he wouldnt have prayed it. You see this person who had come along was dressed in her goth clothing etc. And it was clear to everyone there he was praying it because of her. But it was a very conservative church who has trouble coping with people who don't fit in their box. They would struggle with Rahab or John the Baptist etc. It was sad as she didnt come back, don't blame her. And she would have blossomed in a church with a bit of grace. But judging and legslism won that day... but i suppose she did have long hair so she could have led worship.

i ask because clarity on the point of this thread has been posted several times.

It's not about "hair".

Or about "Goth" or Rahab, or John the Baptist, etc.

Peace, sister.

Praying.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Yes, I have been reading, inbetween sleeping, since the first post. I say this kindly.. have you read them all as well?

I used to live with someone who was incredibly sweet, a kind heart, searching for God's love, but when she came to church with me one time we ended up at a prayer meeting as she wanted to go where someone prayed (who has never prayed such things before) thank you God that you don't care about the outside of us what we wear etc. Though the words were true sadly it came across as judging because let's face it if he didn't care himself he wouldnt have prayed it. You see this person who had come along was dressed in her goth clothing etc. And it was clear to everyone there he was praying it because of her. But it was a very conservative church who has trouble coping with people who don't fit in their box. They would struggle with Rahab or John the Baptist etc. It was sad as she didnt come back, don't blame her. And she would have blossomed in a church with a bit of grace. But judging and legslism won that day... but i suppose she did have long hair so she could have led worship.

Judging right from wrong and adhering to respectful cultural norms is not "judging and legalism"

If pointing out wrongs were legalism, who would be guilty of it yourself because if I use your measure, your posts filled with "judging and legalism".

Why is your compassion only directed toward someone made up to look like a demon? Why not have compassion on the folks in the church? Why have you not tried to excuse their action, but rather condemn them?
 
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I believe the scriptures speaks since the beginning of the hair covering and not just in corinthians....
Deuteronomy 22:5
Woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man nor shall a man put on womans garments for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to GOD

If you think this is a minor issue God doesnt in the Word

This is a form of rebellion same as the hippes in the 60s same as Absolum in Davids day
 
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FoundInGrace

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i ask because clarity on the point of this thread has been posted several times.

It's not about "hair".

Or about "Goth" or Rahab, or John the Baptist, etc.

Peace, sister.

Praying.

Seems like it is to me.
Sure it is about hair. Legalism it's a problem.
 
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brinny

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Seems like it is to me.
Sure it is about hair. Legalism it's a problem.

There are several posts that clarify that it is not about "hair" per se, but spiritually deeper issues regarding Hillsong, especially in NYC, amongst other things.

God help us.

Praying.
 
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FoundInGrace

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Judging right from wrong and adhering to respectful cultural norms is not "judging and legalism"

If pointing out wrongs were legalism, who would be guilty of it yourself because if I use you measure, your own posts filled with "judging and legalism".

Why is your compassion only directed toward someone made up to look like a demon? Why not have compassion on the folks in the church? Why have you not tried to excuse their action, but rather condemn them?

Mainly because their actions turned the sweet heart of this goth girl on a rocky journey with God trying out church, away from the church.
It wasn't just the prayer but the whole experience for her.
If they had bothered to get to know her and seen past the outside they would have realised she has a sweet and kind nature, and would have cared and brought a lot of good to the church if they had let her instead of putting up a wall.
The church sometimes needs to get outside of its fortress of legalism and let people meet God.
I should have taken her to the church down the road. I survived there for a time because I know how to play the church game and 'conservatise' myself to fit in when I have to but she was more sensitive and pure than me.
 
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FoundInGrace

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I feel a haircut coming on..

I used to work for a group who in the contract had that women had to wear a skirt. I needed a job at the time so I thought well that's a small price to pay to have a job.
Hehe how wrong I was... women were so oppressed it was incredible. By the time I finished working there it was almost like I needed reprogramming to reenter the real world. It didn't take long to get back to normal life but wow thankfully Jesus is not like that with women. He went outside cultural norms all the time to minister to women. Talking to the woman at the well, letting a woman wash His feet with perfume and tears etc, letting Taya have the freedom to cut her hair (shock horror oh my!!), all to the consternation of his disciples who couldn't handle it when he did these things much like those in the thread who cant handle it when a woman goes to the hairdresser, but that is grace and truth in action because that is who Jesus is the perfect embodiment of grace and truth.

Hillsong and Bethel and my old church and supposedly Christian workplace all have issues. But personally I'd be happier being in one that let's me cut my hair!!

And lets Jesus with His long hair in as well.
 
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Traveling teacher

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Lets make a distinction between
1. visotors and
2. church mebers and
3. church paid ministers.......

Every church should make this disticnction......
Almost every church I know allows visitors to come qnd visit with different requirements.....
They should wear proper clothing for instance....

But if you become a member of that church you should adher to other requirements and beliefs.....

I know at most churches i have belonged to you are allowed to disagree with certain doctrinal posistions and openly. Speak about those positions in class....

But if you become a leader or a teacher you are required to adhere to their doctrinal belief system or step back out of the teaching posistion....

she is in position #3
As a hired minister
james 3:1
Brethren let not many of you become teachers knowing that we shall recieve stricter judgement
 
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bekkilyn

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The bible isn't composed of 66 (or more) books chock full of Christian commandments that are to be learned and observed no matter what. The greatest and first commandment is to love your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. And a second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.

These are it. Nothing about length of hair or whether one gender is to dominate over the other or to be worship leaders in churches. A lot of Paul's suggestions and advice made sense at the time because he was addressing very specific situations within particular churches that were having all sorts of issues. We can certainly learn from these letters, but to assume that these are God's rules that apply directly to us as if they were amendments to the ten commandments isn't useful.

For example, he advised women not to braid their hair with strands of gold because that's how certain types of prostitutes in the area wore their hair. I don't think anyone here has been scratching their heads and wondering whether or not this Hillsong woman has become a prostitute. Most people aren't even thinking anything odd about this because shaved hair doesn't any real meaning in our culture. If I looked halfway decent with shaved hair, I might consider it myself because I get really tired of finding strands of hair in my food and everywhere else. Also, I see black women with buzz cuts all the time, but have never seen people get upset about it in those cases.

We get so busy cherry-picking verses and taking them out of context and then somehow forgetting what the overall message is supposed to be.
 
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lunastella

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I noticed with much displeasure that one of the female worship leaders at Hillsong has shaved her head.
Literally not a big deal and none of your business.
 
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Foxfyre

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LOL! I've done that as well.

It came to mind for me because some of the previous posts provided clarity that it's not about "hair" per se, but much much deeper spiritually than that and extends to the whole of Hillsongs, in their various locations, in particular, NYC.

Interesting. I'm sure you're right. I was not aware of Hillsongs until this thread, so I'm reading up and expanding my education here.
 
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*LILAC

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Interesting. I'm sure you're right. I was not aware of Hillsongs until this thread, so I'm reading up and expanding my education here.
Same here. I guess maybe sometimes ignorance IS bliss! :confused:
 
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brinny

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Interesting. I'm sure you're right. I was not aware of Hillsongs until this thread, so I'm reading up and expanding my education here.

Thank you sister. You might want to start with New York City Hillsong.

God bless you.
 
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brinny

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Same here. I guess maybe sometimes ignorance IS bliss! :confused:

LOL! It was for me till about a year ago when i accidentally came across some issues with Hillsong, specifically in New York City at that time.

God bless you.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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This is very helpful, thank you.

I still have that question though, about how we handle reproach when God's flock has such diverse views. For example, one of the verses you provided was 2 Corinthians 6:3

"We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,"

I love this because it points back to Paul's other writings about causing others to stumble. I just don't know how to balance this when we consider that, in a ministry decision point where a leader has three options, and all three cause someone from the congregation to stumble/doubt/disagree/etc. I realize that's a vague hypothetical, but do you understand the underlying thought? This is something I'm struggling with and would appreciate prayers but also wisdom.

For example, some churches partake in communion every week, and some do so much less frequently. I grew up in the Salvation Army, who never did communion. If one comes from a background where weekly communion is normal (and expected), and comes to a church where it takes place only during passover, how do we balance that obstacle with our own conviction?

Apologies for the long post.

Great questions. Yes, Paul spoke about not doing things that might cause others to stumble, like meat sacrificed to idols and those whose conscience was still weak. That works with many scenarios. I understand what you are saying, the underlying thought. I will pray! It is something that ability increases with walking it out as we seek Him.

I never thought about the communion scenario.I suspect the frequency of practice is heavily influenced by the doctrines of the denomination and what they practice. I would say it would be something the individual (not church minister) would need to work out in their own conscience...for it seems specific denominations have specific practices (not all held in scripture, but tradition.) Just keep reading The Bible and seeking HIM.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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We have a couple of overweight worship leaders at our church, I've never thought about appearances being distracting in a worship leader before but I guess i will have to be distracted by their appearance now that this thread has taught me how important it is to judge them by what they look like. I used to enjoy worship but now I'll only be able to worship if the leaders look a certain way :(
Worship is more than singing with upraised hands. True worship is in ALL we do, say, and act to reflect Christ. Scripture is where to go and read what Jesus Christ's gospel tells us to obey...from the heart. If the things we do are not lining up with scripture. God does not flounder and fawn around with what HE is calling us to be...Holy...in all our ways. Learning what His Word says and doing it is of the utmost importance. That is genuine faith in action...and by practice, we learn discernment to know what is contrary to HIS Word.

My people perish for lack of knowledge...

Proverbs 5:23
 
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Traveling teacher

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JOhn the babtist had long hair because he was a nazerite like sampson it was a vow from birth to be set aside to the Lord...not cut your hair......
In NUmbers. 6

JEsus was from the town of Narereth thus a nazerene did not have long hair because it was against the law of God in the Bible......
Deutronomy 22:5

Further projecting Jesus as a long haired feminie looking skinnie hippie half on drugs that talks and acts like a girl is probably about the worst idolatry you can commit.....

These projections make Him look and act more like a homosexual than a MAn of God
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Mind you one of the overweight worship leaders is a man so he is above reproach but the woman I can certainly judge harshly.
Why would you say the man "is above reproach"? Very unscriptural. Read the Bible and find out what it truly says on the matters being discussed. When we truly know what scripture says, we know when something is contrary to it and how a true son/daughter of the Most High God should conduct themselves while in this world to be a light shining out of the darkness.

If one can't be faithful in the little things, how will that person ever grow into the being HE calls us to be IN Christ? How can one be faithful when s/he doesn't even know what scripture tells/confirms we are to be/become?

Finding out what The Holy Bible says and declares is of the utmost importance.
2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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The bible says that one brings a word, another brings a song, another prophesies, etc, according as the Holy Spirit unctions each member of the Body at any given time. I don't see the concept of "worship leaders" in the bible........is this not unfortunately another way in which the church is following the world and a departure from the simplicity that we see in scripture.
 
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Hank77

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I just mentioned it because there's a big concern about it, yet I don't see where she has said anything, so why are we assuming that we know the situation. It just leads to judging, gossip and division. If the OP is really concerned, then contact Hillsong and ask them directly.
I agree. If the OP has not contacted Hillsong and discussed with them what he sees as a problem, then this whole conversation is merely gossip.
 
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