Why pray for a miracle?

[aiki]

I have read comments in various threads about apostles and prophets don't exist today.

They don't. Not really. Yes, there are plenty of people claiming to operate in one or both offices, but none of them meet the standards for fulfilling either one. No "apostle" today is like the apostles of Jesus' time, though they all want to claim the same authority within the Church. And there is no need whatever of "prophets" in the OT sense since God's word is entirely sufficient in communicating God's wisdom, will, and spiritual principles to believers and thoroughly equipping them unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Oh and that God doesn't speak to us except through the Bible.

For the most part, He doesn't. Why would He when He's already gone to all the trouble of speaking to us very plainly and exhaustively in His word, the Bible?

So here is my question: If the Bible only pertains to the Jews why read it if you are not a Jew?

As some have already pointed out, the Bible doesn't pertain only to the Jews.

If miracles only occurred back then, why pray for a miracle?

Miracles still occur today. But they aren't nearly the common experience so many false teachers like to assert that they are.

Why pray at all?

Do you only ever pray for miracles? I don't. There are many other things to talk to God about.

If apostles and prophets don't exist today why are we warned of "false prophets" (to me this implies there are prophets).

It doesn't follow that because false prophets exist today that there must therefore be real prophets that exist today also. If someone dresses up in a dinosaur costume and pretends to be one, does this mean that there must be real dinosaurs walking around? Of course not.

By faith I believe He talks to me and I hear His voice.

And just how do you know, exactly, that it is God talking to you and not a subtle demonic counterfeit, or merely the mental noise of your own mind? And where in Scripture does God ever talk to someone directly in their mind or are we taught ever to expect that He will?

By faith I believe that I can pray and whatever I have need of when I pray in Jesus name it is answered.

This isn't precisely what Scripture promises, though:

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

James 4:3
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

By faith I believe that all things are possible with God and that He intended for All Teachings to Be Continued throughout eternity.

"All teachings"? Will there be baptisms in heaven, then? Will we be tithing in heaven? Will we be preaching the Gospel to the lost in heaven? Will we be waiting expectantly for the return of Christ in heaven? These are all teachings of God to us in His word...

 

[Heart2Soul]

They don't. Not really. Yes, there are plenty of people claiming to operate in one or both offices, but none of them meet the standards for fulfilling either one. No "apostle" today is like the apostles of Jesus' time, though they all want to claim the same authority within the Church. And there is no need whatever of "prophets" in the OT sense since God's word is entirely sufficient in communicating God's wisdom, will, and spiritual principles to believers and thoroughly equipping them unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)



For the most part, He doesn't. Why would He when He's already gone to all the trouble of speaking to us very plainly and exhaustively in His word, the Bible?



As some have already pointed out, the Bible doesn't pertain only to the Jews.

Replies have come supporting both sides and so it is clearly something that is never going to be settled. The questions I put out were in relevance to all the different beliefs concerning various teachings of each. So your input sides with many, but also opposes many.

Miracles still occur today. But they aren't nearly the common experience so many false teachers like to assert that they are.



Do you only ever pray for miracles? I don't. There are many other things to talk to God about.



It doesn't follow that because false prophets exist today that there must therefore be real prophets that exist today also. If someone dresses up in a dinosaur costume and pretends to be one, does this mean that there must be real dinosaurs walking around? Of course not.



And just how do you know, exactly, that it is God talking to you and not a subtle demonic counterfeit, or merely the mental noise of your own mind? And where in Scripture does God ever talk to someone directly in their mind or are we taught ever to expect that He will?



This isn't precisely what Scripture promises, though:

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

James 4:3
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.



"All teachings"? Will there be baptisms in heaven, then? Will we be tithing in heaven? Will we be preaching the Gospel to the lost in heaven? Will we be waiting expectantly for the return of Christ in heaven? These are all teachings of God to us in His word...

 

[Heart2Soul]

They don't. Not really. Yes, there are plenty of people claiming to operate in one or both offices, but none of them meet the standards for fulfilling either one. No "apostle" today is like the apostles of Jesus' time, though they all want to claim the same authority within the Church. And there is no need whatever of "prophets" in the OT sense since God's word is entirely sufficient in communicating God's wisdom, will, and spiritual principles to believers and thoroughly equipping them unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)



For the most part, He doesn't. Why would He when He's already gone to all the trouble of speaking to us very plainly and exhaustively in His word, the Bible?



As some have already pointed out, the Bible doesn't pertain only to the Jews.



Miracles still occur today. But they aren't nearly the common experience so many false teachers like to assert that they are.



Do you only ever pray for miracles? I don't. There are many other things to talk to God about.



It doesn't follow that because false prophets exist today that there must therefore be real prophets that exist today also. If someone dresses up in a dinosaur costume and pretends to be one, does this mean that there must be real dinosaurs walking around? Of course not.



And just how do you know, exactly, that it is God talking to you and not a subtle demonic counterfeit, or merely the mental noise of your own mind? And where in Scripture does God ever talk to someone directly in their mind or are we taught ever to expect that He will?



This isn't precisely what Scripture promises, though:

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

James 4:3
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.



"All teachings"? Will there be baptisms in heaven, then? Will we be tithing in heaven? Will we be preaching the Gospel to the lost in heaven? Will we be waiting expectantly for the return of Christ in heaven? These are all teachings of God to us in His word...

 

[Heart2Soul]

Both sides of this topic have been presented and your input sides with many here and opposes many here. Perhaps we will always have differences and who is correct in their teachings will become known when we enter Heaven. Maybe we all have it wrong to some degree. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The miracles + signs + wonders of today are DIFFERENT than the miracles + signs + wonders of THE APOSTOLIC AGE.

0-100 AD: all were possible at the SOLE will of the apostle / disciple to authenticate him as a man of God...THE SIGN GIFTS.

NOW: THE SIGN GIFTS have ceased as being unnecessary. E.G>

James 5 (NASB)
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray.
Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick,
and the Lord will raise him up,
and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another,
and pray for one another so that you may be healed.
The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much

Is there a biblical spiritual gifts list?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have read comments in various threads about apostles and prophets don't exist today. Also that the miracles that Jesus did and the apostles only happened back then. Then the comments that for the most part scriptures were pertaining to the Jews only. Oh and that God doesn't speak to us except through the Bible.

So here is my question: If the Bible only pertains to the Jews why read it if you are not a Jew? This also implies that the Bible is nothing more than a history book of the accounts of others lives.
If miracles only occurred back then, why pray for a miracle? Why pray at all?
If apostles and prophets don't exist today why are we warned of "false prophets" (to me this implies there are prophets). If God doesn't speak to us, then how do we receive direction in our personal lives?

My point in all this is I am tired of the continual debate trying to minimize the Power of the Living Word in our lives. By faith I believe He talks to me and I hear His voice. By faith I believe that I can pray and whatever I have need of when I pray in Jesus name it is answered. By faith I believe I serve the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and that He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever. By faith I believe the Word of God is a Living Word and that it applies to me as well as it did to those in the Bible. By faith I believe that all things are possible with God and that He intended for All Teachings to Be Continued throughout eternity.

Okay, I am just frustrated with the reasoning of people who argue that the Bible, (in part) is not applicable to us today .

Way to jam pack a post and thread. Lots of great questions and material here.

I'm going to start with your question about the Jews and that most scripture is about the Jews or Jews only.

I would like to put that in a little bit of context for you, hopefully it will make sense.

We can think of the Bible (66 book canon) as

1. before Jesus
2. Jesus life and after Jesus

The "Old Testament" is sub category #1
The "New Testament" is sub category #2

This is a very important concept, because there are are two different Covenant's in the Bible,

the Old Covenant which is in sub category #1
the New Covenant is in sub category #2

The Old Covenant is the Covenant before Jesus' Covenant, which is the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant is a people-group Covenant, so it was the Israelite's/Hebrews. All the people from that race and bloodline.

The New Covenant is both Jew and Gentile and is an "everyone" Covenant.

So that might explain why you hear some Jews Only things about the Bible, chances are those topics are from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

Does that make sense?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Way to jam pack a post and thread. Lots of great questions and material here.

I'm going to start with your question about the Jews and that most scripture is about the Jews or Jews only.

I would like to put that in a little bit of context for you, hopefully it will make sense.

We can think of the Bible (66 book canon) as

1. before Jesus
2. Jesus life and after Jesus

The "Old Testament" is sub category #1
The "New Testament" is sub category #2

This is a very important concept, because there are are two different Covenant's in the Bible,

the Old Covenant which is in sub category #1
the New Covenant is in sub category #2

The Old Covenant is the Covenant before Jesus' Covenant, which is the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant is a people-group Covenant, so it was the Israelite's/Hebrews. All the people from that race and bloodline.

The New Covenant is both Jew and Gentile and is an "everyone" Covenant.

So that might explain why you hear some Jews Only things about the Bible, chances are those topics are from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does! thank you! But I have also read where the book of Revelations is about Jews only...what about that one?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes it does! thank you! But I have also read where the book of Revelations is about Jews only...what about that one?

I don't see why anyone would say that.

There are verses that say that Jesus will be coming back for the Jewish people at His Second Coming because God has never stopped considering these people to be His chosen people. And Jeresalem will play a big part in Jesus Second Coming, but otherwise I'm not sure what that person would have meant by that.

The Book of Revelation is about the future and the end of the world and Jesus promised Second Coming.

 

[aiki]

Both sides of this topic have been presented and your input sides with many here and opposes many here. Perhaps we will always have differences and who is correct in their teachings will become known when we enter Heaven. Maybe we all have it wrong to some degree. Thanks for your reply.

You're welcome. I agree that we may have persistent differences in this matter - but not because we can't know the truth of the matter on this side of the grave. I think it's very evident that the charismatic/new apostolic reformation stuff is unbiblical.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't see why anyone would say that.

There are verses that say that Jesus will be coming back for the Jewish people at His Second Coming because God has never stopped considering these people to be His chosen people. And Jeresalem will play a big part in Jesus Second Coming, but otherwise I'm not sure what that person would have meant by that.

The Book of Revelation is about the future and the end of the world and Jesus promised Second Coming.

I believe they were saying the rapture takes place before the events in Revelations and that only the Jews will face the tribulations of that time.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A friend of mine loaned me a book on Smith CWiggleswoth. He said Wiggleswoth had a gift of healing, and after reading it I said I didn't
believe that was so as when he saw a woman in the street who had an ailment. he said "Come to the meeting this evening and you will be healed." If he had the gift of healing he would have healed her there. The healing meetings are just mass hypnosis.

We have a member of our church who was born with cerebral palsy. His parents who were pentecostals dragged him to every healing meeting there was. He never had any improvement and it turned him of that sect. When they moved to this area they attended a local charismatic church. The came to us as he said "We were starved of teaching there"

In my last home town a local charismatic church held two days of healing meetings, In an interview with the local newspaper, the pastor said that one person was healed of a headache. One of our members who attended said she had terrible nightmares after that meeting so didn't go to the second.

The pentecostal, tongues. prophecy, healing, movement is not new, it has occurred many times in history and has been involved in all sorts of all sort of force false teaching and false prophecies.

Walter Cantrell, was Smith Wigglesworth's pianist for his New Zealand meetings. He witnessed many healings, and they were anything but mass hypnosis. When I was a young person in my church, he was a good friend and he was able to tell us of the genuine healing from first-hand eyewitness accounts.

As far as modern Charismatic meetings. I have already commented on why people don't seem to get healed in spite of the claims made by the preachers. Being healed of a headache is nothing, because panadol can fix that quite effectively. It is not Jesus' fault that people don't get healed. The church is its own worst enemy, prayerless preachers trying to use God as a vending machine. The ones in Christian history who did have remarkable healings of incurable diseases and disabilities were men and women of prayer. For every hour of preaching, they would pray at least two hours before and after the meeting. They agonised in prayer for souls, and people got healed as a side effect of their preaching of the gospel.

 

[thesunisout]

I have read comments in various threads about apostles and prophets don't exist today. Also that the miracles that Jesus did and the apostles only happened back then. Then the comments that for the most part scriptures were pertaining to the Jews only. Oh and that God doesn't speak to us except through the Bible.

So here is my question: If the Bible only pertains to the Jews why read it if you are not a Jew? This also implies that the Bible is nothing more than a history book of the accounts of others lives.
If miracles only occurred back then, why pray for a miracle? Why pray at all?
If apostles and prophets don't exist today why are we warned of "false prophets" (to me this implies there are prophets). If God doesn't speak to us, then how do we receive direction in our personal lives?

My point in all this is I am tired of the continual debate trying to minimize the Power of the Living Word in our lives. By faith I believe He talks to me and I hear His voice. By faith I believe that I can pray and whatever I have need of when I pray in Jesus name it is answered. By faith I believe I serve the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and that He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever. By faith I believe the Word of God is a Living Word and that it applies to me as well as it did to those in the Bible. By faith I believe that all things are possible with God and that He intended for All Teachings to Be Continued throughout eternity.

Okay, I am just frustrated with the reasoning of people who argue that the Bible, (in part) is not applicable to us today .

John 10:27

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

It is normal for God to speak to us, not abnormal. If you never hear anything from God then I would say there is probably something abnormal going on. For me, God has been talking to me since the day He revealed Himself to me, and a day hasn't gone by that He hasn't said something to me. Not in an audible voice, but through His word, through my circumstances, through my conscience, through other people, through nature and so many other ways. He is so awesome!

Regarding miracles, I think Christians have been infected by the skepticism of this secular age. Miracles are just as normal as hearing from God, because our God is a miracle working God. Jesus said we would do greater things even than what was being done in that time. He also said this:

mark 16:17

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well

God wants us to hold Him to His word. He delights when we have the faith to believe what He said and expect Him to fulfill His promises.

 

[aiki]

John 10:27

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me

This verse is often cited in defense of the notion that God speaks privately and directly into one's mind. But it is glaring eisgesis to assert that Christ meant such a thing by what he said in this verse from the Gospel of John. When Christ first said these words, he was speaking quite literally of hearing his actual voice, not of a divine voice speaking privately in one's own mind. And his "voice" is recorded in Scripture for all those coming after to "hear" and make a choice to follow or not.

I recognize that you did not go so far as to say that God speaks in a distinct voice within your mind. I'm glad to know you don't subscribe to such an unbiblical idea.

 

[Sebastian Michael]

@Heart2Soul
On the whole Jew-descendant thing, see the following video.
>>>

And as for modern day prophets, in Acts it says,
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." - Acts 2:16-21
So there are told to be a number of people who will prophesy toward the end for sure. Of course it is definitely of my opinion that we are indeed living in the end times. Many prophecies have already been fulfilled and the world is fast swirling down the toilet. One spin of the head should show anyone that our time here is nearly up. Let us not deny the words written in the book we profess to believe in.

 

[David Kent]

@Heart2Soul
On the whole Jew-descendant thing, see the following video.
>>>

And as for modern day prophets, in Acts it says,
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." - Acts 2:16-21
So there are told to be a number of people who will prophesy toward the end for sure. Of course it is definitely of my opinion that we are indeed living in the end times. Many prophecies have already been fulfilled and the world is fast swirling down the toilet. One spin of the head should show anyone that our time here is nearly up. Let us not deny the words written in the book we profess to believe in.

Peter said that prophecy referred to his day, Pentecost was in the last days.

The Noble Lesson of the Waldensians, written in about AD 1160, begins,

"O Brethren, give ear to a noble lesson.
We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end."

They were quoting

• 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Peter says something similar

• 1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[aiki]

mark 16:17

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well

From verse 9 to the end of chapter 16 of Mark is what many Bible scholars consider a "later accretion." There is significant doubt as to the legitimacy of this section of Scripture. I would not, then, cite from it to make dogmatic points about doctrine.

 

[GTW27]

Blessings in Christ Jesus. The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen. After He had risen in Glory He kept His promise by sending The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) at pentacost. This is the Power that comes down from above. This is the same Spirit(Holy Spirit) that indwells every born again(from above) believer. This is Him in us and us in Him. And if He be in us, and we agree, as one, how can we not walk in The Power and Authority of the early believers. If these things be true, (and He says that they are) when we ask, how can we not receive, when we lay our hands on the sick, how can they not recover, when we command an unclean spirit to come out, how can it not obey? When Jesus said it, or promised it, it comes to pass. If you need to be restored, all you need to do is repent and ask, ask like David did, "O Lord, restore my soul, and I will be restored" This He has done for me countless times. It is instant, not a process as some would say. I have come not to argue words, for His Words have been written, and can be heard by anyone that is truly His. And these words are the same, as He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Blessings in Christ Jesus. The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen. After He had risen in Glory He kept His promise by sending The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) at pentacost. This is the Power that comes down from above. This is the same Spirit(Holy Spirit) that indwells every born again(from above) believer. This is Him in us and us in Him. And if He be in us, and we agree, as one, how can we not walk in The Power and Authority of the early believers. If these things be true, (and He says that they are) when we ask, how can we not receive, when we lay our hands on the sick, how can they not recover, when we command an unclean spirit to come out, how can it not obey? When Jesus said it, or promised it, it comes to pass. If you need to be restored, all you need to do is repent and ask, ask like David did, "O Lord, restore my soul, and I will be restored" This He has done for me countless times. It is instant, not a process as some would say. I have come not to argue words, for His Words have been written, and can be heard by anyone that is truly His. And these words are the same, as He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

How true....and it is in the context of rightly dividing the Truth...agrees with my spirit and encourages me. Thanks!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe they were saying the rapture takes place before the events in Revelations and that only the Jews will face the tribulations of that time.

That is not correct. All people on earth will face those events if there is not a rapture. If there is a rapture, who ever is left over

 

[Heart2Soul]

I agree....so much controversy about this and I just wanted to get other viewpoints. I have argued to no avail. I appreciate your input and wise counsel. God Bless!