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Featured Why no Job in Darbys rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Sep 29, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Easily disproven.

    Give us your quotes.
     
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Part 1:
    First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

    “But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1)


    Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.


    Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

    “‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1)


    This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other that the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

    “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)


    These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

    “For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2)


    We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

    “Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3)

    “And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4)


    We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”

    Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”
    (continued)
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Part 2:


    Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

    “Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

    “These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2)


    Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

    “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2)

    Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

    “Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1)

    In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.


    So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

    And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Based entirely on comments I have personally found in the works of early Church writers, I can assuredly say that:

    A future millennium was clearly taught at least by Papias, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertulian, Hyppolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius, Nepos, Apollinaris and Victorinus of Petau.

    A future coming of a personal Antichrist was taught at least by Barnabas, Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Hyppolytus, Tertullian, Commodianus, Cyprian of Carthage, John of Damascus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine of Hippo.

    A future dissolution of the Roman Empire into ten kingdoms was taught at least by Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hyppolytus, Victorinus, Commodianus, Lactantius, and Jerome.

    God's dealing with mankind in various dispensations (yes, they used that word) was clearly taught by at least by Irenaeus, Hermas, and Ignatius.

    A delayed fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week was taught at least by the unkown writer of the so-called "Epistle of Barnabas," and Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Hyppolytus.

    A rapture before the great tribulation was taught at least by Irenaeus, Victorinus, and the unknown writer called "Pseudo-Ephraem." And John of Crysostem implied that some in his day were teaching that the restrained who would "be taken out of the way" was the Holy Spirit. As this is an essential element of pre-trib doctrine, it strongly implies that this was being taught in his time.

    And although no document clearly teaching a future blessing for Israel survived the medieval purges, we know it was being taught in the early church from the arguments against it taught by the unknown writer of the so-called "Epistle of Barnabas," and by Tertullian, Dionysius, and Caius.

    Futurism was, in actual fact, so all-prevalent in the early church that in the fifth century Jerome wrote, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

    So futurism was unquestionably the standard doctrine of the church for its first few hundred years, and much dispensational doctrine was contained in their ministry, including a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week, a future restoration of Israel, and a rapture before the tribulation.

    Not even one of these claims is based on anything someone else told me. I have actual ancient quotations (with references) to back up every detail of every one of these claims stored on my personal computer.

    Although I searched for it, I did not find even one ancient document that has survived to the present day that clearly teaches Amillennism at any time earlier than Origen. And the second oldest Amillennial writer I found was is Dionysius.
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. These ten kingdoms presaged the emergence of the papal Roman empire.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Early Church Fathers are no greater that what we might call the Latter Church Fathers. The so called Bible prophecy experts we have today. None of them had any inspiration direct from God, as the ancient prophets did.
    Daniel 12:9-10 proves that every person since Jesus and the Apostles had no mandate to prophesy, or to make infallible statements of interpretation about the prophesies.
    It is only now, in the last days, that a few will be able to understand what God has planned for His Creation and for His faithful Christian people.
    For most, it will only be after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped. Isaiah 8:16, Isaiah 42:18-20, Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 29:24
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


    Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
    Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


    "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
    post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

    Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

    .
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It has been proved that Tim LaHaye was mistaken.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Chrysostom pointed out the error in that teaching (and thus in pre-trib doctrine):

    "Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    More correctly, he expressed a contrary opinion.In actual fact, he did not present even one reason why it was not correct. He just said he held a different opinion. But my point was not what his judgment of the doctrine, but that he said that it was being taught in his day. So this strongly suggests that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture was being taught at that time.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He presented the reason why Paul articulated the scenario as he did, and thus why the alternative was incorrect. History subsequently demonstrated the accuracy of Paul's inspired prescience, and of Chrysostom's understanding of it.
     
  12. my_name_is_sarah

    my_name_is_sarah New Member

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    Is this the right place to post on the rapture?
    I absolutely believe in the rapture of the believers. JESUS completed the saving work of our salvation and IF we have accepted that wonderful work of redemption we WILL go up in the rapture

    IF you do NOT ''rightly divide'' the Word of God you WILL get confused and mixed up .

    You need to know that after the rapture God will take up HIS ''everlasting covenant" with Israel.
    That is the ''kingdom''. The "kingdom" is not for Christians.

    Jesus came unto His own the Jews- He did not come to teach the Gentiles.
    HE gave Paul the "mystery' of the church. Jesus told his disiples "go NOT into the way of the Gentiles'' Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Peter was the apostle to the Jews.

    IF you do not ''rightly divide'' you will mess the Word of God up. As scripture says to the destruction of your soul
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Unfortunately the Bible never says that God plans to take His people up to heaven to live. Only the souls of the martyrs are kept there and Jesus will bring them back with Him and they will come to life again. Revelation 20:4
    Rightly dividing the Word, is a basically meaningless term. All that is required, is to simply read what we are told in our Bibles. Different opinions arise when people view scripture thru the lens of a preconceived belief.
    What God has said He will do for His faithful people in the end times, is protection during the difficult times ahead. For all those people, Jew and Gentile, the Lord promises great blessings, but we must endure in our faith until the end. Revelation 13:10
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Since you have ignored the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, you may be happier in the Dispensational Theology section found in the link below.

    If you stay here very long you may be disappointed to see the recent history of the doctrine you are attempting to promote.

    Some here once believed the same things you are now saying, but had to reject the doctrine when its claims did not match up to scripture.


    Which Type of Dispensational Are You and Why?


    The recent origin of your doctrine is found below.

    PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
    with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
    F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
    http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

    Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
    PDF Files

    Genesis of Dispensational Theology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

    Rightly Dividing The Word Part 1: Pastor Michael Hoggard
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaw-6n_L0pg


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Timothy 2:15

    3718 [e]
    orthotomounta
    ὀρθοτομοῦντα
    accurately handling
    V-PPA-AMS

    Rightly dividing = accurately handling

    It has nothing to do with chopping Scripture into seven millennia, dispensations, or any other artificial manmade divisions.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Had Jerome lived a relatively short time later, he would have seen the fulfillment of his commentary. The "ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves" were ten kingdoms which emerged from the dissolution of the pagan Roman empire, the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons. The "insignificant eleventh king" was the nascent papal Roman empire which emerged shortly thereafter. The "three of the ten kings" which the papacy subsequently overcame were the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

    Jerome died in 420 AD. The last of the three kingdoms, the Ostrogoths, were conquered in 538 AD.

    Jerome was indeed a futurist. He just didn't, and of course couldn't, realize how near that future was.
     
  17. my_name_is_sarah

    my_name_is_sarah New Member

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  18. my_name_is_sarah

    my_name_is_sarah New Member

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  19. my_name_is_sarah

    my_name_is_sarah New Member

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    Dear friends
    It is sad to see false doctrine in so many ways. Satan is SO subtle. We MUST ''rightly divide'' the Word of God.
    The rapture will happen soon for those who have accepted that wonderful gift of salvation. The Bible tells us that we are "NOT appointed to wrath "
    JESUS__GOD Almighty paid in full your sin debt !!! You CAN KNOW you are "saved" and complete IN HIM
     
  20. my_name_is_sarah

    my_name_is_sarah New Member

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    Are most the writers in this thread Seventh day adventist?
     
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