Why no Job in Darbys rapture?

[JackRT]

"wrath of the Lamb" seems like an oxymoron.

 

[BABerean2]

"wrath of the Lamb" seems like an oxymoron.

Mat 25:31　 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:　

Mat 25:32　 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:　

Mat 25:33　 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.　

Mat 25:34　 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:　

Mat 25:35　 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:　

Mat 25:36　 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.　

Mat 25:37　 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?　

Mat 25:38　 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?　

Mat 25:39　 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?　

Mat 25:40　 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.　

Mat 25:41　 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:　

Mat 25:42　 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:　

Mat 25:43　 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.　

Mat 25:44　 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?　

Mat 25:45　 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.　

Mat 25:46　 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.　

.

 

[Biblewriter]

When will this LIE that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture stated with Darby die out? This has been ABSOLUTELY disproved more times that I can count. It was taught by numerous writers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by a few earlier than that, some very much earlier.

 

[jgr]

When will this LIE that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture stated with Darby die out? This has been ABSOLUTELY disproved more times that I can count. It was taught by numerous writers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by a few earlier than that, some very much earlier.

Provide some names and dates.

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Because Darby's doctrine lives and dies on keeping the Church and Israel separated.

They must ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

They also ignore the words of Peter on the Day of Pentecost when he addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel, and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".

Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson speaks below about those who attempt to defend Darby's doctrine.

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Thank God HE will keep HIS ''everlasting covenant'' with Israel. IF HE did not keep HIS promises to the faithful remnant of Israel He would HAVE to give up on us too. We are NO better then Israel and the unbelief they had and all the failure. Mankind is a failure but praise the LORD HE will keep HIS promises !!!!

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Provide some names and dates.

 

[my_name_is_sarah]

Thank God HE will not allow HIS own to go through the horrors of the trib. HE has NOT appointed us to wrath

HE ''finished'' the work of salvation and we are secure IN HIM alone

 

[jgr]

Thank God HE will not allow HIS own to go through the horrors of the trib. HE has NOT appointed us to wrath

HE ''finished'' the work of salvation and we are secure IN HIM alone

Wrath, no. Tribulation, yes. There's a big difference.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[keras]

When will this LIE that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture stated with Darby die out? This has been ABSOLUTELY disproved more times that I can count. It was taught by numerous writers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by a few earlier than that, some very much earlier.

But a pre-tribulation rapture removal to heaven for anyone, is not stated in the Bible.
And the ECF's never clearly said there would be a rapture to heaven. And if people like to infer that they did, then believing them is no better that believing any other false prophet.

Jesus warned us to be not deceived; Matthew 24:4, so we know it can happen! Has any of us never been fooled? We are all suckers for a good deal or investment, but if it is too good to be true; then it probably isn't true!

The idea of a rapture removal to heaven before disaster strikes, is a prime example and when this and other things like prosperity theology are preached and taught by people of high standing, it's no wonder that many are led to believe those teachings. People fail to check their Bibles for proof that what they have been told, is really what the Lord has planned.
What we Christians are plainly told, is that we can expect trials and testing, 1 Peter 3:12, and we must endure and stand strong in our faith. Revelation 13:9-10

HOWEVER, if good Christian people have believed a wrong teaching about what the Lord will do for them, this is not a salvation issue. PROVIDED; they do not lose their faith that He will save them.
This is where, unfortunately, so many will fall away when the test comes. What they expected won't happen and they will renounce God, to their eternal loss.

 

[DeaconDean]

And the ECF's never clearly said there would be a rapture to heaven.

Irenaeus said:

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

-Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,29

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jgr]

Irenaeus said:

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

-Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,29

God Bless

Till all are one.

From Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center:

Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.

 

[DeaconDean]

From Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center:

Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.

Focus what he said:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"

I said nothing on "pretribulationism".

What I quoted was context on a "rapture".

Regarding the Irenaeus quote you will hear people say that the next paragraph denounces the thought of a pre-tribulation Rapture because it mentions the beast. But those who tout this view are not completely honest. The quote I mentioned above does not follow with a paragraph but ends the first section of chapter 29. Then begins section two of the chapter which is the subject of the beast.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jgr]

Focus what he said:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"

I said nothing on "pretribulationism".

What I quoted was context on a "rapture".

Regarding the Irenaeus quote you will hear people say that the next paragraph denounces the thought of a pre-tribulation Rapture because it mentions the beast. But those who tout this view are not completely honest. The quote I mentioned above does not follow with a paragraph but ends the first section of chapter 29. Then begins section two of the chapter which is the subject of the beast.

God Bless

Till all are one.

When the term "rapture" is used without qualification, it is most often understood to mean a pretrib rapture. If you believe that Irenaeus is not describing a pretrib rapture, then all of us -- yourself, myself, Thomas Ice, and Irenaeus -- are in agreement.

 

[DeaconDean]

When the term "rapture" is used without qualification, it is most often understood to mean a pretrib rapture. If you believe that Irenaeus is not describing a pretrib rapture, then all of us -- yourself, myself, Thomas Ice, and Irenaeus -- are in agreement.

Look back at what Irenaeus said:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"

Now I do disagree with you in that the usage from Irenaeus is the same as scripture, "caught up".

If you read it, just as written, he says:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this" but, "caught up" from what?

He answers this in his next sentence:

"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be"

But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to step back on that.

However, about 100 years later, we have another Anti-Nicene church Father that says:

"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Ephraem the Syrian, “On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World”.

But lets say he's wrong too.

Just a tad earlier, Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":

"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."

It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.

Oh well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[keras]

Look back at what Irenaeus said:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"

Now I do disagree with you in that the usage from Irenaeus is the same as scripture, "caught up".

If you read it, just as written, he says:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this" but, "caught up" from what?

He answers this in his next sentence:

"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be"

But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to step back on that.

However, about 100 years later, we have another Anti-Nicene church Father that says:

"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Ephraem the Syrian, “On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World”.

But lets say he's wrong too.

Just a tad earlier, Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":

"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."

It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.

Oh well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

NONE of them say that God will rapture His people to heaven. Irenaeus and the others just reiterated what Paul prophesied in 1 Thess 4:15-17 Just a transportation to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.

I would like all who hold to the idea of a rapture removal to heaven, to carefully read Hebrews 12:7-8
Your comments on this verse would be appreciated.

 

[DeaconDean]

NONE of them say that God will rapture His people to heaven. Irenaeus and the others just reiterated what Paul prophesied in 1 Thess 4:15-17 Just a transportation to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.

I beg your pardon:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

I would like all who hold to the idea of a rapture removal to heaven, to carefully read Hebrews 12:8
Your comments on this verse would be appreciated.

I will, however, what has this to do with the subject at hand?

Noted theologian John Gill comments:

"But if ye be without chastisement
Or have no affliction:

whereof all are partakers;
that is, all the children of God; they are all alike children; they are all in a state of imperfection, and prone to sin; God has an impartial respect unto them: and though they are not all alike chastened, nor chastened at all times, yet none are exempted from chastisement, but have it in some way or another, and at some time or another.

Then are ye bastards, and not sons;
all are not sons that are under a profession of religion; all that are under a profession of religion are not chastised; but then those are not the children of God, but the children of the world, of Satan, and of the antichristian harlot; for though all that are chastised are not children, yet all that are children are chastised: hence we learn, that outward peace and prosperity is not a note of a true church; and that such have reason to distrust their state, who know not what it is to have the chastising rod of God upon them; and that afflictions are rather arguments for than against sonship."

Source

I would urge you to read Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 89, "Divine Chastisement, Heb. 12:7-8.

That passage, has nothing to do with "end times".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jgr]

Look back at what Irenaeus said:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"

Now I do disagree with you in that the usage from Irenaeus is the same as scripture, "caught up".

If you read it, just as written, he says:

"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this" but, "caught up" from what?

He answers this in his next sentence:

"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be"

But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to step back on that.

However, about 100 years later, we have another Anti-Nicene church Father that says:

"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Ephraem the Syrian, “On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World”.

But lets say he's wrong too.

Just a tad earlier, Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":

"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."

It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.

Oh well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The final sentence in the cited passage from Irenaeus states:
"For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

If the righteous are pretrib-raptured, there is no contest, i.e., tribulation, in which they overcome.


The Syriac version of the "Sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem on the End of the World" contains:
"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions."

Deliverance is via death, not rapture.

However, there is sufficient controversy regarding the authenticity of Pseudo-Ephraem to disqualify it as a legitimate source.


Cyprian, Epistle 55
"Nor let any one of you, dearest brethren, be so alarmed by the dread of the persecution at hand, or at the now impending advent of Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the Evangelical exhortations, and by heavenly precepts and warnings. Antichrist cometh, but upon him cometh also Christ. The enemy wastes and rages, but immediately also the Lord followeth to avenge our sufferings and our wounds."

The brethen would experience Antichrist, followed by Christ. No implication of rapture.

 

[GUANO]

Probably because rapture ttheology is nonsense =)

But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong. Very happy and undeserving of being wrong.

 

[DeaconDean]

The final sentence in the cited passage from Irenaeus states:
"For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

If the righteous are pretrib-raptured, there is no contest, i.e., tribulation, in which they overcome.


The Syriac version of the "Sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem on the End of the World" contains:
"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions."

Deliverance is via death, not rapture.

However, there is sufficient controversy regarding the authenticity of Pseudo-Ephraem to disqualify it as a legitimate source.


Cyprian, Epistle 55
"Nor let any one of you, dearest brethren, be so alarmed by the dread of the persecution at hand, or at the now impending advent of Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the Evangelical exhortations, and by heavenly precepts and warnings. Antichrist cometh, but upon him cometh also Christ. The enemy wastes and rages, but immediately also the Lord followeth to avenge our sufferings and our wounds."

The brethen would experience Antichrist, followed by Christ. No implication of rapture.

In the first Epistle of John, he says a few times that "antichrists" would come, and already were.

You will also hear people denounce the sermon of Ephraem saying that it is better known as Pseudo-Ephraem meaning that someone else wrote it around the 6th century. The only charge on that accusation is if someone wrote it in the 6th century then where did they copy it from?

And until it is proven sufficiently that Ephraem is a "Pseudo" book, the point you make is moot.

And I would like for you to show me in scripture where it says that my salvation is secure through my death. (Deliverance is via death)

I can think of at 2 individuals who didn't die.

And, as I have said before, can you tell me how many of those who die at the opening of the 4th seal are Christian and how many are non-Christian?

Can you tell me how many of those who die via the star Wormwood, and how many are Christian and non-Christian?

Can you tell me how many of those who die when the sixth trumpet sounds?

You would tell me that Christians as well as non-Christians alike will face death during the tribulation.

1 Thes. 1:10 says differently.

God Bless

Till all are one.