Why no Job in Darbys rapture?

[WailingWall]

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ......[14] And the heaven departed AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...... [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the rapture Darby invented?

 

[BABerean2]

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ......[14] And the heaven departed AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...... [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the rapture Darby invented?

Because Darby's doctrine lives and dies on keeping the Church and Israel separated.

They must ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

They also ignore the words of Peter on the Day of Pentecost when he addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel, and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".

Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson speaks below about those who attempt to defend Darby's doctrine.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That doesn't take away from the fact that the bride/church is no longer mentioned after the 4th chapter of Revelation and ONLY the wife are being dealt with ... prayers for Jerusalem

 

[pat34lee]

That doesn't take away from the fact that the bride/church is no longer mentioned after the 4th chapter of Revelation and ONLY the wife are being dealt with ... prayers for Jerusalem

What is the church but the body of believers, Jew and gentile?
When they are gathered together as Israel, what need for the
other name? They are going nowhere until God is finished, not
when the going gets a little rough.

 

[WailingWall]

That doesn't take away from the fact that the bride/church is no longer mentioned after the 4th chapter of Revelation and ONLY the wife are being dealt with ... prayers for Jerusalem

And who do you think is the bride?

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

 

[ewq1938]

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

No. Scripture states Christians are the bride. Non-Christians will not be marrying Christ.

Christians are the bride:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

That doesn't take away from the fact that the bride/church is no longer mentioned after the 4th chapter of Revelation and ONLY the wife are being dealt with ... prayers for Jerusalem

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not mentioned in the entire Book of Revelation, just as it is not mentioned in several other New Testament books.

Seven individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are mentioned.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the verse above a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the
Grace of the New Covenant Church.

This one verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.

.

 

[Douggg]

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

Job was praying that he not be resurrected back to life to have to go through the time of God's wrath. Not being aware that when the resurrection/ rapture takes place, it will be to be taken to heaven - where the mansions are, as the Day of the Lord begins here on earth.

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to be God. The Day of the Lord continues for one thousand years, until after the Great White Throne judgment, and there is a new heaven and new earth.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not mentioned in the entire Book of Revelation, just as it is not mentioned in several other New Testament books.

Seven individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are mentioned.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the verse above a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the
Grace of the New Covenant Church.

This one verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.

.

I wasn't advocating amillinianism, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib when making mention that the church is not being dealt with after chapter 4 of Revelation. The verse above are those who are alive at the time of tribulation, during the time of the return of 144000 Jews to Christ.

 

[WailingWall]

No. Scripture states Christians are the bride. Non-Christians will not be marrying Christ.

Christians are the bride:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Yup. The Christians are the bride.

ROMANS 11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather THROUGH THEIR FALL SALVATION IS COME UNTO THE GENTILES, for to provoke them to jealousy.

[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, AND THOU, BEING A WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFFED IN AMONG THEM, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[26] And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The gentiles (stangers) are grafted into their tree, the tree of the Whole house of Israel.

 

[WailingWall]

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to be God. The Day of the Lord continues for one thousand years, until after the Great White Throne judgment, and there is a new heaven and new earth.

Nope. That day will be over rather quickly

PSALM 119 [126] It is TIME FOR THEE, LORD, TO WORK: for they have made void thy law. [127] Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

ROMANS 9 [28] For HE WILL FINISH THE WORK, and cut it short in righteousness: because A SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

The verse above are those who are alive at the time of tribulation, during the time of the return of 144000 Jews to Christ.

The text of Revelation 14 describes the 144,000 as "firstfruits" of the Lamb and "virgins".

The Apostle Paul uses the same language to describe Christians.

Rev 14:4　 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.　


Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Those who come to salvation through the Blood of the Lamb are members of His New Covenant Church, first described by Christ in Matthew 16:18.

.



.

 

[jgr]

I wasn't advocating amillinianism, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib when making mention that the church is not being dealt with after chapter 4 of Revelation. The verse above are those who are alive at the time of tribulation, during the time of the return of 144000 Jews to Christ.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Thus we have...:

• 12 depicting the OT saints within the Church
• 12 depicting the NT saints within the Church
• 1000 depicting a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11)

...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

 

[BABerean2]

Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.　



Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　
Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　
Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.　


.

 

[DeaconDean]

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the verse above a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the
Grace of the New Covenant Church.

This one verse destroys the pretrib doctrine.

Lets go ahead and open this can of worms.

Unless God was in error, and the book of Revelation is put together wrong, there are things that happen before this piece of scripture.

After chapter 5, we have: 7 seals, then the seven trumpets.

Beginning in Rev. 6, when the 4th seal is broken, it says that a 1/4 of mankind will die.

Tell me which ones are Christians and which ones are non-Christian please.

In Rev 7, we see the star "Wormwood" polluting the waters and "many men died of the waters".

Tell me which ones are Christians and which ones are non-Christian please.

In Rev 9 we see the four angels are loosed and another 1/3 are killed.

Tell me which ones are Christians and which ones are non-Christian please.

In another verse, horsemen are loosed, and another 1/3 are killed.

Tell me which ones are Christians and which ones are non-Christian please.

As a matter of fact, in the whole of chapter 9, the whole earth is tortured.

Tell me which ones are Christians and which ones are non-Christian please.

But more than that, at the end of chapter 6, verse 16-17 we read:

"hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come;"

Before chapter 12, there is the wrath of God. Verified by chapters 6, 7, and 9.

The Apostle Paul said that we are saved from the wrath to come.

If you deny a "rapture" and if "mid", and "post-tribbers" are correct, we have a situation on our hands.

1. Paul lied.
2. God will not only punish, but kill both believers and non-believers alike.
3. The Book of Revelation is put together wrong in that we have a logical progression of events, then, "Oh by the way" here's chapter 12:11.

Lets do the math.

Rev. 6:8.-----6.4 billion*.25=1.6 billion.

6.4-1.6=4.8 billion people remain.

Rev. 9:15----4.8 billion*.33= 1.584 billion

4.8-1.584=3.216 billion remain.

Now I intentionally left out Rev. 8:11 because no percentage is given.

Just between Rev. 6:8 and 9:15, nearly half of the worlds "current" population will die.

Can you tell me which ones are Christian and which ones are non-Christian?

There is no distinction made in the scripture between Christians and non-Christians.

In fact, just a plain reading of the scripture shows that there are only 144,000 that will not endure any part of this "wrath".

So we're back to square one.

a) Either Paul lied and both Christians and non-Christians both alike will not only endure the "wrath", but both groups will die and be tormented.

b) The Book of Revelation is put together wrong based on the placement of Rev. 12.

If any combination of "a", or "b" or both are true, then the scriptures are not worth the paper they are written on, and completely unreliable. We might as well get us a copy of Moby Dick and make that our scriptures as they have as good a chance of being correct as the "bible".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BABerean2]

So we're back to square one.

a) Either Paul lied and both Christians and non-Christians both alike will not only endure the "wrath", but both groups will die and be tormented.

b) The Book of Revelation is put together wrong based on the placement of Rev. 12.

If any combination of "a", or "b" or both are true, then the scriptures are not worth the paper they are written on, and completely unreliable. We might as well get us a copy of Moby Dick and make that our scriptures as they have as good a chance of being correct as the "bible".

We will start with "b".
Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in Revelation chapter 19.
Therefore, the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The book is a series of overlapping visions given to the Apostle John on the Island of Patmos.
It is not my place to judge the book as "unreliable" or "not worth the paper they are written on", because I do not like the way it is written.

The end is found in the 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
It is also the time of God's wrath.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　(This is the point at which the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever'?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　

Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　(In this verse we find both the time of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead, which is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.)


Chapter 12 is a review of Church history, including the birth and death of the "man-child", who will rule with a rod of Iron. Based on Psalm 2, the "man-child" is Christ.

Now for your "a".
Since we are gathered at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, we are not subject to God's wrath in Revelation 11:18.

However, the text of Revelation 12 makes it plain that at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan.

Rev 12:12　 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.　


Now let us deal with what you ignored.
Can you explain how those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are not Christians, since Christians are those who have placed their faith in Christ and have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb?


.

 

[DeaconDean]

Can you explain how those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are not Christians, since Christians are those who have placed their faith in Christ and have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb?

It is clear that you ignore the last verse of chapter 6.

But with that said, since most (and you) deny a "rapture", and there is no distinction betwenn who are Christian and who are non-Christian, it is possible that if one accepts your P.O.V., of the 1/4 that die some of them are "Christian"?

And if...

"and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." -Rev. 11:18

Shouldn't this be included with Rev. 20?

If not, then we have another judgment beside the great white throne judgment.

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." -Rev. 12:11

How many martyred saints have there been?

Rev. 6: 15-17 tells us that wrath has already started:

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

If there is a "judgment" in Rev. 11:18, where do the 24 elders get their crowns from in Rev. 4:10?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JackRT]

Perhaps Darby recognized that Job was a fiction --- somewhat like an extended parable.

 

[BABerean2]

If there is a "judgment" in Rev. 11:18, where do the 24 elders get their crowns from in Rev. 4:10?

You are attempting to force the Book of Revelation into a perfect chronological sequence, even though Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in chapter 19.
Therefore, there is no way the book is in perfect chronological order.

Christ also returns at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
They would not be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb were present.

He returns at the 7th trumpet of chapter 11.

He returns in the "harvest" of chapter 14.

If there is not a judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 then why does the text say it is the time of the judgment of the dead?

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

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