He commented sufficiently to make it clear that his eschatology did not include a pretrib rapture.
Upvote
0
Why no Job in Darbys rapture?
- Thread starter WailingWall
- Start date
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Not so, in this life, if a Christian is not being chastened by the Lord, he is a "b*****d".
Nobody walks a perfect life. NOBODY!
If you misbehave and your father corrected (chastised) you, would you expect any different from God?
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." -Heb. 12:10-11 (KJV)
"A little child requires much coaxing (at times, something more!) in order to make him take his medicine. He may be very ill, and mother may earnestly assure him that the unpleasant potion will bring sure relief; but the little one cries out, "I cannot take it, it is so nasty." But adults, generally, need not have the doctor argue and plead with them: they will swallow the bitterest remedy if convinced that it will do them good. The application of this to spiritual matters is obvious. Those Christians who are but spiritual babes, fret and fume when called upon to endure Divine chastisement, knowing not the gains they will receive if it be accepted in the right spirit. But those who have grown in grace, and become men in Christ, who know that all things work together for good to them that love God, and who have learned by experience the precious fruits which issue from sanctified afflictions, accept from God the bitterest cup, and thank Him for it.
But alas, many of God’s people are but infants experimentally, and need much coaxing to reconcile them to the cup of trial. Therefore is it needful to present to our consideration one argument after another. Such is the case here in Hebrews 12: if one line of reasoning does not suffice, perhaps another will. The Christian is very skeptical and takes much convincing. We have heard a person say to one who claims he has done, or can do, some remarkable thing, "You must show me before I will believe you." Most of us are very much like that in connection with spiritual things. Though the Scriptures assure us, again and again, that chastisement proceeds from our Father’s love, and is designed for our good, yet we are slow, very slow, to really believe it. Therefore does the apostle here proceed from one consideration to another so as to assure the hearts and establish the faith of his afflicted brethren upon this important subject.
"For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness" (v. 10). This is a continuation of what was before us in the previous verse. A further reason is given why Christians should be "in subjection unto" their heavenly Father, when His correcting rod is laid upon them. Not only is it becoming for them so to do, because of the relationship which exists between them: but it is also meet they should act thus, because of the gains they receive thereby. The consideration which the apostle now presents to the attention of the afflicted saints is really a double one. First, the chastisement we received from our earthly parents had reference mainly to our good in this life, whereas the disciplinary dealings of our heavenly Father looks forward to the life to come (2 Cor. 4:17). Second, the chastisement of our earthly parents was often a matter of their caprice and sometimes issued from irritability of temper, but the rod of our heavenly Father is wielded by infinite goodness and wisdom, and has in view our well being.
We regard the words "for they verily for a few days chastened us" as referring not so much to the brief season of our childhood, but more to the fact that our parents had only our temporal interests in view: whereas God has our eternal welfare before Him. "The apostle seems to bring in this circumstance to contrast the dealings of earthly parents with those of God. One of the circumstances is, that the corrections of earthly parents had a much less important object than those of God. They related to this life—a life so brief that it may be said to continue but a "few days." Yet, in order to secure the benefit to be derived for so short a period from fatherly correction, we submitted without murmuring. Much more cheerfully ought we to submit to that discipline from the hand of our heavenly Father which is designed to extend its benefits through eternity" (A. Barnes).
The added words "after their own pleasure" or "as seemed good" to them, points another contrast between the disciplinary dealings of our earthly parents and those of our heavenly Father. In their infirmity, sometimes the rod was used upon us in a fit of anger, rather than from a loving desire to reform our manners. "Meaning that it was sometimes clone arbitrarily, or under the influence of passion. This is an additional reason why we should submit to God. We submitted to our earthly parents, though their correction was sometimes passionate, and was designed to gratify their own pleasure rather than to promote our good. There is much of this kind of punishment in families; but there in none of it under the administration of God. ‘But He for our profit:’ never from passion, from caprice, from the love of power or superiority, but always for our good" (A. Barnes).
But to particularize: the benefits of Divine chastisement—
1. It weans us from the world. One of the greatest surprises of the writer’s Christian life in connection with his fellow-saints has been, not their ignorance, nor even their inconsistencies, but their earthliness, their reluctance to leave this world. As "strangers and pilgrims" we should be longing and yearning for our Heavenly Home; as those who are away from Him whom they love best, we should desire to "depart and be with Him" (Phil. 1:23). Paul did. Christ has promised to return for His people, yet how few of them are daily crying, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus." How rarely we hear them saying, in the language of the mother of Sisera, "Why is His chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of His chariot?’’
"And all the trials here we see
Should make us long to be with Thee."
2. It casts us back the more upon God. By nature we are filled with a spirit of independency. The fallen sons of Adam are like wild asses’ colts. Chastisement is designed to empty us of our self-sufficiency, to make us feel weakness and helplessness. If "in their affliction they will seek Me early" (Hos. 5:15), then surely afflictions are for our "profit." Trials and troubles often drive us to our knees; sickness and sorrow make us seek unto the Lord. It is very noticeable in the four Gospels how rarely men and women that were in health and strength sought out Christ; it was trouble and illness which brought them to the great Physician. A nobleman came to Christ—why? Because his son was at the point of death. Jairus sought out the Master—why? Because his little daughter was so low. The Canaanitish woman interviewed the Lord Jesus—why? On behalf of her tormented daughter. The sisters of Lazarus sent a message to the absent Savior—why? Because their brother was sick.
Afflictions may be very bitter, but they are a fine tonic for the soul, and are a medicine which God often uses on us. Most vividly is this illustrated in Psalm 107—read carefully verses 11 to 28. Note that it is when men are "brought down," when they are "afflicted," when they are "at their wits’ end" that they "cry unto the Lord in their trouble." Yes, it is "trouble" which makes us turn unto the Lord, not in a mechanical and formal way, but in deep earnestness. Remember that it is the "effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man that availeth much." When you observe that the fire in your room is getting dull, you do not always put on more coal, but simply stir with the poker; so God often uses the black poker of adversity in order that the flames of devotion may burn more brightly.
3. It makes the promises of God more precious to us. Trouble often acts on us like a sharp knife which opens the truth of God to us and our hearts unto the truth. Experience unlocks passages which were otherwise closed. There is many a text in the Bible which no commentator can helpfully expound to a child of God: it must be interpreted by experience. Paul wrote his profoundest epistles while in prison; John was "in tribulation" on Patmos when he received the Revelation. If you go down into a deep well or mine in the daytime, you will then see the shining of stars which were not visible from the earth’s surface; so God often brings us low in order that we may perceive the shining beauty of some of His comforting assurances. Note how Jacob, in Genesis 32, pleaded God’s promises when he heard that Esau was approaching with four hundred men! The promises of resurrection mean far more unto Christians when some of their loved ones have been removed by death.
4. It qualifies us to sympathize with others. If we have never trod the vale of sorrow and affliction we are really unable to "weep with those that weep." There are some surgeons who would be more tender if they had suffered from broken bones themselves. If we have never known much trouble, we can be but poor comforters to others. Even of our Savior it is written, "For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted He is able to succor them that are tempted" (Heb. 2:18). Bunyan could never have written the book which he did, unless God had permitted the Devil to tempt and buffet him severely for so many years. How clearly is all this brought out in 2 Corinthians 1:4: "Who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God." Luther frequently said, "Three things make a good preacher: prayer, meditation, and temptation."
5. It demonstrates to us the blessedness and sufficiency of Divine grace. "My grace is sufficient for thee, for My strength is make perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:9). But in order to prove this, we have to be brought into the place of severe testing and trial, and made to feel our own incompetency and nothingness. Brethren, if you have prospered in business all your lives, and have always had an easy time financially, then it is probable you know very little about God’s strength being perfected in your weakness. If you have been healthy all your lives and have never suffered much weakness and pain, then you are not likely to know much about the strength of God. If you have never been visited with trying situations which bring you to your wits’ end, or by heartrending bereavements, you may not have discovered much of the sufficiency of Divine grace. You have read about it in books, or heard others speak of it, but this is a very different thing from having an experimental acquaintance of it for yourself. It is much tribulation which brings out the sufficiency of God’s strength to support under the severest trials, and demonstrates that His grace can sustain the heart under the heaviest losses.
6. It develops our spiritual graces. This is clearly set forth in that familiar passage Romans 5:3-5: "We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope; and hope maketh not ashamed." This "rejoicing" is not in tribulations considered in themselves, but because the Christian knows they are appointed by his Father, and because of their beneficial effects. Three of these effects or spiritual graces thus developed are here mentioned. First, tribulation worketh "patience." Patience never thrives except under buffetings and disappointments: it is not even called into exercise while things are going smoothly and pleasantly. Sanctified tribulations call into activity that strength and fortitude which is evidenced by a submissive endurance of suffering. The patience here referred to signifies deliverance from murmuring, refusing to take things into our own hands (which only causes additional trouble), a contented waiting for God’s time of deliverance, and a persevering continuance in the path of duty.
7. It brings us into fellowship with the sufferings of Christ. The cross is the symbol of Christian discipleship. Like the scars which the wounded soldier prizes above all other distinctions, so our sufferings are the proof of our oneness with Christ (Rom. 8:17). Not only so, they make us appreciate the more what He endured for us. While we have plenty, we cannot properly estimate or appreciate the poverty which our Savior endured. While we enjoy a comfortable bed we cannot truly sympathize with Him who "had not where to lay His head." It is not till some familiar friend, on whom we counted, has basely betrayed our trust, that we can enter into something of what the Savior suffered through the perfidy of Judas. It is only when some brother has denied you, that you begin to understand what Christ felt, when Peter denied Him. As we, in some small measure, obtain an experimental acquaintance with such trials, it makes Christ increasingly precious to us, and enables us to appreciate the more all that He went through on our behalf. In a coming day we are going to share His throne; now we are privileged to taste His cross.
If, then, trials and tribulations, under God, produce such delightful fruits, then welcome chastisements that are for "our profit." Let the rains of disappointment come if they water the plants of spiritual graces. Let the winds of adversity blow if they serve to root more securely in grace the trees of the Lord’s planting. Let the sun of prosperity be eclipsed if this brings us into closer communion with the Light of life. Oh, brethren and sisters, however distasteful they are to the flesh, chastisements are not to be dreaded, but welcomed, for they are designed to make us "partakers of God’s holiness."
Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 91, Divine Chastisement, Hebrews 12:10
There is nothing, nothing in that chapter that leads us to believe it has to do with enduring the tribulation.
I'm sorry if you don't like commentaries, but there it is.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Upvote
0
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Matthew Henry agrees:
" Those that are impatient under the discipline of their heavenly Father behave worse towards him than they would do towards earthly parents, v. 9, v. 10. Here, (1.) The apostle commends a dutiful and submissive behaviour in children towards their earthly parents We gave them reverence, even when they corrected us. It is the duty of children to give the reverence of obedience to the just commands of their parents, and the reverence of submission to their correction when they have been disobedient. Parents have not only authority, but a charge from God, to give their children correction when it is due, and he has commanded children to take such correction well: to be stubborn and discontented under due correction is a double fault; for the correction supposes there has been a fault already committed against the parent’s commanding power, and superadds a further fault against his chastening power. Hence, (2.) He recommends humble and submissive behavior towards our heavenly Father, when under his correction; and this he does by an argument from the less to the greater. [1.] Our earthly fathers are but the fathers of our flesh, but God is the Father of our spirits. Our fathers on earth were instrumental in the production of our bodies, which are but flesh, a mean, mortal, vile thing, formed out of the dust of the earth, as the bodies of the beasts are; and yet as they are curiously wrought, and made parts of our persons, a proper tabernacle for the soul to dwell in and an organ for it to act by, we owe reverence and affection to those who were instrumental in their procreation; but then we must own much more to him who is the Father of our spirits. Our souls are not of a material substance, not of the most refined sort; they are not ex traduce—by traduction; to affirm it is bad philosophy, and worse divinity: they are the immediate offspring of God, who, after he had formed the body of man out of the earth, breathed into him a vital spirit, and so he became a living soul. [2.] Our earthly parents chastened us for their own pleasure. Sometimes they did it to gratify their passion rather than to reform our manners. This is a weakness the fathers of our flesh are subject to, and this they should carefully watch against; for hereby they dishonour that parental authority which God has put upon them and very much hinder the efficacy of their chastisements. But the Father of our spirits never grieves willingly, nor afflicts the children of men, much less his own children. It is always for our profit; and the advantage he intends us thereby is no less than our being partakers of his holiness; it is to correct and cure those sinful disorders which make us unlike to God, and to improve and to increase those graces which are the image of God in us, that we may be and act more like our heavenly Father. God loves his children so that he would have them to be as like himself as can be, and for this end he chastises them when they need it. [3.] The fathers of our flesh corrected us for a few days, in our state of childhood, when minors; and, though we were in that weak and peevish state, we owed them reverence, and when we came to maturity we loved and honoured them the more for it. Our whole life here is a state of childhood, minority, and imperfection, and therefore we must submit to the discipline of such a state; when we come to a state of perfection we shall be fully reconciled to all the measures of God’s discipline over us now. [4.] God’s correction is no condemnation. His children may at first fear lest affliction should come upon that dreadful errand, and we cry, Do not condemn me, but show me wherefore thou contendest with me, Job. 10:2 . But this is so far from being the design of God to his own people that he therefore chastens them now that they may not be condemned with the world, 1 Co. 11:32 . He does it to prevent the death and destruction of their souls, that they may live to God, and be like God, and for ever with him.5. The children of God, under their afflictions, ought not to judge of his dealings with them by present sense, but by reason, and faith, and experience: No chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous; nevertheless afterwards it yieldeth the peaceable fruits of righteousness, v. 11."
Source
Fault me all you want, but there is nothing in the context of this chapter that relates to the tribulation period. Period.
God Bless
Till all are one.
" Those that are impatient under the discipline of their heavenly Father behave worse towards him than they would do towards earthly parents, v. 9, v. 10. Here, (1.) The apostle commends a dutiful and submissive behaviour in children towards their earthly parents We gave them reverence, even when they corrected us. It is the duty of children to give the reverence of obedience to the just commands of their parents, and the reverence of submission to their correction when they have been disobedient. Parents have not only authority, but a charge from God, to give their children correction when it is due, and he has commanded children to take such correction well: to be stubborn and discontented under due correction is a double fault; for the correction supposes there has been a fault already committed against the parent’s commanding power, and superadds a further fault against his chastening power. Hence, (2.) He recommends humble and submissive behavior towards our heavenly Father, when under his correction; and this he does by an argument from the less to the greater. [1.] Our earthly fathers are but the fathers of our flesh, but God is the Father of our spirits. Our fathers on earth were instrumental in the production of our bodies, which are but flesh, a mean, mortal, vile thing, formed out of the dust of the earth, as the bodies of the beasts are; and yet as they are curiously wrought, and made parts of our persons, a proper tabernacle for the soul to dwell in and an organ for it to act by, we owe reverence and affection to those who were instrumental in their procreation; but then we must own much more to him who is the Father of our spirits. Our souls are not of a material substance, not of the most refined sort; they are not ex traduce—by traduction; to affirm it is bad philosophy, and worse divinity: they are the immediate offspring of God, who, after he had formed the body of man out of the earth, breathed into him a vital spirit, and so he became a living soul. [2.] Our earthly parents chastened us for their own pleasure. Sometimes they did it to gratify their passion rather than to reform our manners. This is a weakness the fathers of our flesh are subject to, and this they should carefully watch against; for hereby they dishonour that parental authority which God has put upon them and very much hinder the efficacy of their chastisements. But the Father of our spirits never grieves willingly, nor afflicts the children of men, much less his own children. It is always for our profit; and the advantage he intends us thereby is no less than our being partakers of his holiness; it is to correct and cure those sinful disorders which make us unlike to God, and to improve and to increase those graces which are the image of God in us, that we may be and act more like our heavenly Father. God loves his children so that he would have them to be as like himself as can be, and for this end he chastises them when they need it. [3.] The fathers of our flesh corrected us for a few days, in our state of childhood, when minors; and, though we were in that weak and peevish state, we owed them reverence, and when we came to maturity we loved and honoured them the more for it. Our whole life here is a state of childhood, minority, and imperfection, and therefore we must submit to the discipline of such a state; when we come to a state of perfection we shall be fully reconciled to all the measures of God’s discipline over us now. [4.] God’s correction is no condemnation. His children may at first fear lest affliction should come upon that dreadful errand, and we cry, Do not condemn me, but show me wherefore thou contendest with me, Job. 10:2 . But this is so far from being the design of God to his own people that he therefore chastens them now that they may not be condemned with the world, 1 Co. 11:32 . He does it to prevent the death and destruction of their souls, that they may live to God, and be like God, and for ever with him.5. The children of God, under their afflictions, ought not to judge of his dealings with them by present sense, but by reason, and faith, and experience: No chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous; nevertheless afterwards it yieldeth the peaceable fruits of righteousness, v. 11."
Source
Fault me all you want, but there is nothing in the context of this chapter that relates to the tribulation period. Period.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Upvote
0
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Jamison, Fausset, Brown Commentary says:
"10. Showing wherein the chastisement of our heavenly Father is preferable to that of earthly fathers.
for a few days—that is, with a view to our well-being in the few days of our earthly life: so the Greek.
after their own pleasure—Greek, "according to what seemed fit to themselves." Their rule of chastening is what may seem fit to their own often erring judgment, temper, or caprice. The two defects of human education are: (1) the prevalence in it of a view to the interests of our short earthly term of days; (2) the absence in parents of the unerring wisdom of our heavenly Father. "They err much at one time in severity, at another in indulgence [1Sa 3:13; Eph 6:4], and do not so much chasten as THINK they chasten" [Bengel].
that we might be partakers of his holiness—becoming holy as He is holy (Joh 15:2). To become holy like God is tantamount to being educated for passing eternity with God (Heb 12:14; 2Pe 1:4). So this "partaking of God's holiness" stands in contrast to the "few days" of this life, with a view to which earthly fathers generally educate their sons.
Php 1:11). "Peaceable" (compare Isa 32:17): in contrast to the ordeal of conflict by which it has been won. "Fruit of righteousness to be enjoyed in peace after the conflict" [Tholuck]. As the olive garland, the emblem of peace as well as victory, was put on the victor's brow in the games.
exercised thereby—as athletes exercised in training for a contest. Chastisement is the exercise to give experience, and make the spiritual combatant irresistibly victorious (Ro 5:3). "Oh, happy the servant for whose improvement his Lord is earnest, with whom he deigns to be angry, whom He does not deceive by dissembling admonition" (withholding admonition, and so leading the man to think he needs it not)! [Tertullian, Patience, 11]. Observe the "afterwards"; that is the time often when God works."
Source
John Calvin wrote:
"10. For they verily for a few days, etc. The second amplification of the subject, as I have said, is that God’s chastisements are appointed to subdue and mortify our flesh, so that we may be renewed for a celestial life. It hence appears that the fruit or benefit is to be perpetual; but such a benefit cannot be expected from men, since their discipline refers to civil life, and therefore properly belongs to the present world. It hence follows that these chastisements bring far greater benefit, as the spiritual holiness conferred by God far exceeds the advantages which belong to the body.
Were any one to object and say, that it is the duty of parents to instruct their children in the fear and worship of God, and that therefore their discipline seems not to be confined to so short a time; to this the answer is, that this is indeed true, but the Apostle speaks here of domestic life, as we are wont commonly to speak of civil government; for though it belongs to magistrates to defend religion, yet we say that their office is confined to the limits of this life, for otherwise the civil and earthly government cannot be distinguished from the spiritual kingdom of Christ.
Moreover when God’s chastisements are said to be profitable to make men partners of his holiness, this is not to be so taken as though they made us really holy, but that they are helps to sanctify us, for by them the Lord exercises us in the work of mortifying the flesh.
11. Now no chastening, etc. This he adds, lest we should measure God’s chastisements by our present feelings; for he shows that we are like children who dread the rod and shun it as much as they can, for owing to their age they cannot yet judge how useful it may be to them. The object, then, of this admonition is, that chastisements cannot be estimated aright if judged according to what the flesh feels under them, and that therefore we must fix our eyes on the end: we shall thus receive the peaceable fruit of righteousness. And by the fruit of righteousness he means the fear of the Lord and a godly and holy life, of which the cross is the teacher. He calls it peaceable, because in adversities we are alarmed and disquieted, being tempted by impatience, which is always noisy and restless; but being chastened, we acknowledge with a resigned mind how profitable did that become to us which before seemed bitter and grievous."
Source
So I repeat myself.
There is nothing in the context of Hebrews 12 that leads us to believe this has anything to do with the tribulation period. Period.
I'm sorry you don't like commentaries, but there it is.
God Bless
Till all are one.
"10. Showing wherein the chastisement of our heavenly Father is preferable to that of earthly fathers.
for a few days—that is, with a view to our well-being in the few days of our earthly life: so the Greek.
after their own pleasure—Greek, "according to what seemed fit to themselves." Their rule of chastening is what may seem fit to their own often erring judgment, temper, or caprice. The two defects of human education are: (1) the prevalence in it of a view to the interests of our short earthly term of days; (2) the absence in parents of the unerring wisdom of our heavenly Father. "They err much at one time in severity, at another in indulgence [1Sa 3:13; Eph 6:4], and do not so much chasten as THINK they chasten" [Bengel].
that we might be partakers of his holiness—becoming holy as He is holy (Joh 15:2). To become holy like God is tantamount to being educated for passing eternity with God (Heb 12:14; 2Pe 1:4). So this "partaking of God's holiness" stands in contrast to the "few days" of this life, with a view to which earthly fathers generally educate their sons.
Php 1:11). "Peaceable" (compare Isa 32:17): in contrast to the ordeal of conflict by which it has been won. "Fruit of righteousness to be enjoyed in peace after the conflict" [Tholuck]. As the olive garland, the emblem of peace as well as victory, was put on the victor's brow in the games.
exercised thereby—as athletes exercised in training for a contest. Chastisement is the exercise to give experience, and make the spiritual combatant irresistibly victorious (Ro 5:3). "Oh, happy the servant for whose improvement his Lord is earnest, with whom he deigns to be angry, whom He does not deceive by dissembling admonition" (withholding admonition, and so leading the man to think he needs it not)! [Tertullian, Patience, 11]. Observe the "afterwards"; that is the time often when God works."
Source
John Calvin wrote:
"10. For they verily for a few days, etc. The second amplification of the subject, as I have said, is that God’s chastisements are appointed to subdue and mortify our flesh, so that we may be renewed for a celestial life. It hence appears that the fruit or benefit is to be perpetual; but such a benefit cannot be expected from men, since their discipline refers to civil life, and therefore properly belongs to the present world. It hence follows that these chastisements bring far greater benefit, as the spiritual holiness conferred by God far exceeds the advantages which belong to the body.
Were any one to object and say, that it is the duty of parents to instruct their children in the fear and worship of God, and that therefore their discipline seems not to be confined to so short a time; to this the answer is, that this is indeed true, but the Apostle speaks here of domestic life, as we are wont commonly to speak of civil government; for though it belongs to magistrates to defend religion, yet we say that their office is confined to the limits of this life, for otherwise the civil and earthly government cannot be distinguished from the spiritual kingdom of Christ.
Moreover when God’s chastisements are said to be profitable to make men partners of his holiness, this is not to be so taken as though they made us really holy, but that they are helps to sanctify us, for by them the Lord exercises us in the work of mortifying the flesh.
11. Now no chastening, etc. This he adds, lest we should measure God’s chastisements by our present feelings; for he shows that we are like children who dread the rod and shun it as much as they can, for owing to their age they cannot yet judge how useful it may be to them. The object, then, of this admonition is, that chastisements cannot be estimated aright if judged according to what the flesh feels under them, and that therefore we must fix our eyes on the end: we shall thus receive the peaceable fruit of righteousness. And by the fruit of righteousness he means the fear of the Lord and a godly and holy life, of which the cross is the teacher. He calls it peaceable, because in adversities we are alarmed and disquieted, being tempted by impatience, which is always noisy and restless; but being chastened, we acknowledge with a resigned mind how profitable did that become to us which before seemed bitter and grievous."
Source
So I repeat myself.
There is nothing in the context of Hebrews 12 that leads us to believe this has anything to do with the tribulation period. Period.
I'm sorry you don't like commentaries, but there it is.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Upvote
0
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
And since there are four of you ganging up on me, I will not respond to any more posts.
One or two, maybe, but I will not stand for a group.
God Bless
Till all are one.
One or two, maybe, but I will not stand for a group.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Upvote
0
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Upvote
0
Not sure how asking a simple question is ganging up, but your decision is your privilege.
God bless you as well.
Upvote
0
You are correct, because that verse is a reference to those at Armageddon.
They would not be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb were present.
The same characters are involved.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
The confusion comes from attempting to make the Book of Revelation in chronological order, which it is clearly not.
Revelation chapters 5 and 6 are a summary of the Book of Revelation revealed to John when he was told to "Come and see", after the seals were removed by Christ.
The following verse kills the pretrib doctrine, because a person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of Christ's Church. (Body of believers)
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.
Upvote
0
DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
- 22,183
- 2,677
- 61
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
This will be my absolute last post here!
Your post, your opinion proves nothing.
But it does go right along with Rev. 7:14.
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
In the Greek:
"καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ μου, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου." -Rev. 7:14 (GNT)
Sir
Sir is κύριε [kyrie] which is frequently translated Lord. Elsewhere, the word is translated master (Mtt. Mat. 6:24); Sir (Mtt. Mat. 13:27; John John 5:7), and lord (Mtt. Mat. 10:24; Luke Luke 12:36; Luke 14:21; Luke 16:3; John John 15:15). It is the respectful address of an inferior to his superior in age or station.1
you know
σὺ οἶδας [sy oidas] , emphatic: you, you know.
the ones who come out
ἐρχόμενοι [erchomenoi] , present participle. They are continually coming out— probably the result of ongoing persecution resulting in martyrdom, although the text does not explicitly indicate martyrdom. “Present middle participle with the idea of continued repetition. ‘The martyrs are still arriving from the scene of the great tribulation.’ ”2 1Cor. 15:51-52).”3
the great tribulation
Literally, the tribulation, the great. “ ‘The tribulation,’ points to a definite prophetic period, and not simply to tribulation in general in which all saints shared. ‘The great tribulation’ cannot be the general troubles that affect God’s people in all ages. The insertion of the definite article marks its speciality.”4 This is the unique time of intense tribulation which Jesus predicted (Mtt. Mat. 24:21). During this time, multitudes will die; both unbelievers in judgment and believers through martyrdom and harsh conditions (as these, Rev. Rev. 14:13+). “And unless those days were shorted, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened” (Mtt. Mat. 24:22). This is the “hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. Rev. 3:10+). This time of trouble will be especially difficult for the Jewish nation (Jer. Jer. 30:7; Dan. Dan. 12:1, Dan. 12:7; Mtt. Mat. 24:16-20). Yet even this Great Tribulation cannot separate the faithful from the love of Christ, for they are overcomers (Rom. Rom. 8:35-39). See Who is the Overcomer? As we have discussed elsewhere, the Church is not appointed to God’s wrath and is exempted from this “hour or trial which God brings upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. Rev. 3:10+). These believers are those who come to faith after the rapture of the Church. It is interesting to note the accuracy which attends predictions made by those who take Scripture at face value. Walter Scott (1796-1861), writing well in advance of the establishment of Israel in 1948, says of this verse: “ ‘The great tribulation’ is yet future. It pre-supposes the Jewish nation restored to Palestine in unbelief , to serve Gentile political ends, and brought there by the active intervention of a great maritime power (Isa. Isa. 18:1).” [emphasis added]5 Since 1948, Scott’s words, which reflect God’s Word, have come to pass. See Trouble Ahead.
washed their robes
See commentary on Revelation 1:5.
made them white
ἐλεύκαναν [eleukanan] , used to describe making blood-red stains due to sin become white (Isa. Isa. 1:18).6 It may picture not only their salvation (washing away their sins), but also the exchange of garments bloodied by their persecution on earth for clean garments from God.
in the blood of the Lamb
The garments of many were no doubt stained with their own blood. Still, it is the blood of the Lamb which is required for salvation. Their blood, while precious to God (Ps. Ps. 116:15) and spilled as a testimony to God, lacks any redemptive power. See commentary on Revelation 1:5 and Revelation 5:9.
Notes
1 James Moffatt, “Revelation of St. John the Divine,” in W. Robertson Nicoll, ed., The Expositor’s Greek Testament, vol. 5 (New York, NY: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 399.
2 A. T. Robertson, Robertson’s Word Pictures in Six Volumes (Escondido, CA: Ephesians Four Group, 2003), Rev. 7:14.
3 John MacArthur, Revelation 1-11 : The MacArthur New Testament Commentary (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1999), Rev. 7:14.
4 Walter Scott, Exposition of The Revelation (London, England: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), 163.
5 Ibid.
6 Frederick William Danker and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 472.
Source
Also:
"keep you from the hour of trial
A large body of discussion attends this phrase. The debate centers on whether from (εκ [ek] ) here denotes out of or through. Is the promise to keep the church out of the trial or to preserve it through the trial? Proponents of the kept through view observe other passages where εκ [ek] can have this meaning.2 They also observe examples in Scripture where God’s people are protected in the midst of God’s judgment:
On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark. (Gen. Gen. 7:13)
Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. (Ex. Ex. 12:13)
Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain. (Isa. Isa. 26:20-21)
“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” . . . They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. (Rev. Rev. 7:3+; Rev. 9:4+)
Proponents of the kept from view point to the fact that the most natural use of εκ [ek] indicates out of and that if the alternate meaning were in view, another more suitable preposition would have been used.3 They too can point to passages which support their view—where the faithful are removed prior to God’s judgment:
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. (Gen. Gen. 5:24)
And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it?” . . . Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” (Gen. Gen. 18:23-32)
And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. (Gen. Gen. 19:21-22)
The problem cannot be solved simply by appeal to similar passages since both models of protection are found in Scripture. This is because saints occupying different roles in history find themselves in different situations with regard to what God is doing in their midst. There is not a “one size fits all” approach to how God chooses to protect the faithful: at the time of Noah’s flood, Enoch “walked with God and he was not, for God took him” (Gen. Gen. 5:24), yet Noah and his family were preserved through the flood within the Ark (Gen. Gen. 7:13). We believe that by these typological examples, God is teaching us that some saints will be raptured whereas others—who come to faith later—will be protected in the midst of His wrath. But, the simple answer to the question at hand is found by reading the promise more carefully, for the promise is not to be kept from the trial, but from the hour of trial. The church will not even experience the trial for it will be kept from the hour when the trial is visited upon the earth.
Christ promised to keep these church saints form the time period characterized by the testing Christ had in mind. If the Lord had meant that He would keep them from just the testing itself, He could have made that very clear by omitting the words ‘the hour’ and simply saying, ‘I will keep you from the testing.’4
When the all-important word hour is factored into the discussion, it becomes clear that the promise relates to the time of trial and not its effects. Mark 14:36; Luke Luke 22:42],’ and the parallel or equivalent request, ‘save me from this hour [John John 12:27],’ he was not praying to be spared during the hour, but to be kept from it, which settles the meaning of the expression here.”5 Too often, commentators fail to grasp this important distinction. For example:
It is far from clear that the removal of Christians from the earth would be the only possible way in which Jesus could keep His people from the wars and plagues anticipated to occur at that time. [emphasis added]6
But this line of reasoning is flawed because the verse says nothing about being kept from wars and plagues—the promise is to be kept from the hour or time. A serious problem with the kept through view is that God’s promise is of little merit in view of the fact that Scripture records multitudes of the faithful will suffer violent death during this period (Dan. Dan. 7:21, Dan. 7:25; Dan. 8:24; Rev. Rev. 7:9-16+; Rev. 12:11+; Rev. 13:7+; Rev. 20:4+):7
Even if the church saints were to be shielded from the testing of God’s wrath will bring on the earth in the period of testing Christ had in mind, the Scriptures (Rev. Rev. 6:9-11+; Rev. 13:7+, Rev. 13:15+; Rev. 20:4+) make it clear that many of the saints alive on the earth during that period will be martyred by unbelievers. Thus, even though they will not be put to death by God’s wrath, they will still experience violent death as if they had not been shielded from God’s wrath. This militates against the answer that Christ will shield or protect the saints in or through that period of testing.8
This verse does not say that the Church will be merely kept safe during the trial, but it will be kept from the very hour of trial, that is, from the very time of it. This requires a removal before the Tribulation ever occurs. If Revelation Rev. 3:10+ means that the Church will be kept safe during the Tribulation, then something goes terribly wrong. Throughout the Tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale (Rev. Rev. 6:9-11+; Rev. 11:7+; Rev. 12:11+; Rev. 13:7+, Rev. 13:15+; Rev. 14:13+; Rev. 17:6+; Rev. 18:24+). If these saints are Church saints, they are not being kept safe and Revelation Rev. 3:10+ is meaningless. Only if Church saints and Tribulation saints are kept distinct does the promise of Revelation Rev. 3:10+ make any sense.9
This hour of trial is said to come upon the whole world (see below) and cannot relate to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 as some hold for there was no need to protect the Philadelphian church from events hundreds of miles distant which had offered no direct physical threat to Asia Minor. This promise relates to a unique time of trial yet future that all believers shall escape due to their participation in the Rapture. In this, the passage has in common a typological and future application like that of Revelation Rev. 2:20-22+ where Jezebel is cast into great tribulation. See commentary on Revelation 2:22. See Rapture."
Source
Just like Rev. 7:14, Rev12:11 shows that there are "Christians" that will come out of the great tribulation period, and that they will in most likelihood, be from martyrdom.
Rev. 12:11 does not disprove a "rapture"!
Like I said, I show:
- Today
2:20 AM-
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
2:04 AM -
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
1:19 AM -
jgr replied to the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?. There may be more posts after this.
12:46 AM -
jgr replied to the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?. There may be more posts after this.
12:42 AM - Yesterday
7:25 PM-
WailingWall quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
5:15 PM - keras quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
3:54 PM - jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.12:06 PM
-
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
11:29 AM
- BABerean2 quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
6:17 AM -
BABerean2 quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
5:49 AM - jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
4:37 AM -
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
3:49 AM -
keras quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
3:16 AM -
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
2:24 AM -
jgr quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
1:39 AM - Wednesday
BABerean2 quoted your post in the thread Why no Job in Darbys rapture?.
11:01 PM
4 people, for a total 18 posts, over 3 days. Ganging up on me.
Now, having said that...
I bid you adieu.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
This is speaking of tribulation saints, and is in perfect agreement with modern pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. The scriptures, in speaking of that time, often speak of those who turn to God at that time and then remain faithful as "righteous," but they also show that when the true Messiah finally comes, they will recognize Him as their long awaited Messiah, but will be surprised to learn that He is Jesus.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Zechariah 13:6
Upvote
0
Will there be a second chance at Salvation, at His Second Coming?
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
How will those who do not know God survive the "flaming fire" at His return?
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
There will be two groups when He returns, the sheep and the goats.
The Final Judgment (subtitle from eSword)
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The passage above along with Revelation 11:18 destroys the Premil doctrine.
The time of the judgment of the dead comes right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The final judgment occurs at His Second Coming.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20, instead of the beginning.
We must always use the clear text of the New Testament when making reference to Old Testament passages.
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist..."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter XXXV, Part 1
According to the dispensational view, is not the "resurrection of the just" a multiphased event, of which the rapture is one phase?
Irenaeus places the "resurrection of the just", which would include all of its phases, after the coming of Antichrist.
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Irenaeus assumes the world will last only 6,000 years; in other words, creation was about 4,000 B.C. He is strictly using the formula 1 day = 1,000 years and applying this to the 6 days of creation. In other words, if you want to use him to support your view, the earth can't be older. But it already is older; do the math. The earliest date proposed for creation is 4,004 B.C.
The chapters in Irenaeus are not very clear and are subject to alternate interpretations.
Anyway, there are few if any church fathers having the modern views about the millennium, rapture, antichrist, rebuilt temple, and etc.
Upvote
0
If using scripture to reveal the truth is "ganging up on you", then I plead "guilty".
We love you, Brother.
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Actually, these views were held by essentially all of the Christian writers that wrote during the first two centuries of the church.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
