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Why is there no evidence that Jesus baptised with immersion in water?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by AdamjEdgar, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    When it’s your time to be awakened and illuminated, you will understand baptism differently than you do now. As you probably know from The Word, all of God’s children must be taught directly by Christ. You might read Numbers 16 paying attention to the first use of the word “visitation” (KJV Numbers 16:29).
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  2. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

    Good passage for showing that water baptism isn’t done to be saved, because they had already received the Holy Spirit which only happens after being born again.
  3. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

    United States
    Yes I thought it was very strange when I learned it as well. But history proves that it is a fact. those waiting to be killed in the Colosseum asked to be baptized and were baptized by non believers and the Church accepted those baptisms as being valid. I do not know if all denominations accept this as valid today.
  4. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    United States
    That goes back to the Mormons asking me by who's authority I was baptized.
  5. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Then there is the case of St. Genesius an 4th century actor who parodied baptism on stage and became a Christian and was martyred by Diocletian.

    Genesius of Rome - OrthodoxWiki
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    Strictly speaking, a layman may baptize. For example, nurses baptize people who are about to die, but they aren't ordained ministers or acting on the authorization of some denomination. Martyrs about to be eaten by the lions--unbaptized people giving their lives because they would not renounce Christ--are considered to have received a (non-ceremonial) "baptism of desire." And these baptismal irregularities are considered valid by the churches. So as for the Mormon question, the "authority" is Christ himself. Christian baptism is what it is because Christ commissioned his disciples to baptize new believers.
  7. Jaxxi

    Jaxxi Well-Known Member

    United States
    After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He tarried with them, and baptized. John 3:22

    When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John. John 4:1

    It looks like He baptized people to me.
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    Full immersion baptism declined as healthy water was difficult to come by.

    As clean water became more readily available, it became a thing again.

    Imagine drinking in some infected water while being baptized and dying?
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter

    There is no evidence, really, that most in Israel who were baptized by the apostles were baptized by immersion, either. In the speaking in in tongues incident, which took place in Jerusalem, baptizing 3000 men and their families by immersion would have likely polluted the entire drinking supply for a good while. You might say they went to the Jordan, but that's 20 miles away, and it's not related in Scripture that that's what happened. Jesus didn't tell the apostles how to baptize, he just said to do it.
  10. BeyondET

    BeyondET Active Member

    United States
    Hmm but isn’t this before the Baptist was thrown in prison. The OP mentions what happen after John’s death.
  11. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Good catch. I was responding to the statement earlier in the OP that "Jesus did not appear to baptize".
    To answer the later question that you are referring to would be mere speculation. The fact that the
    Gospel writers didn't make recurring reference to baptizing does not exclude the act.
  12. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

    Without reading all the answers, Christ didn't need to baptise anyone because He was God Himself, in the form of God the Son. When He "converted" someone, it was quite obvious, like a blind man seeing, a deaf man hearing, or lepers healed from their disease.

    For us, Baptism is a sacrament, a visible sign of an invisible grace. Baptism by immersion or sprinkling, whatever method is chose, is simply a sign that the Holy Spirit has come upon that person. It's not the water that does the trick - it's just a sign.

    In Christ's case, the grace was visible and immediate.
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    Understanding this means understanding some things about Jewish practice. Specifically in Judaism ritual washing (called tevillah) was done for a number of reasons. These washings were to be done, usually, in a specific bath called a mikveh--wealthier Jewish households had their own mikvehs, but most Jews had to rely on public mikvehs.

    St. John the Baptist, under his specific appointment as the Forerunner of our Lord, was in his prophetic work calling Israel back to repentance in the anticipation of God's imminent salvation and visitation to Israel, long ago promised by the ancient prophets, looking forward to the Day of the Lord, and the advent of the King Messiah son of David.

    John's baptism/tevillah was a call for people to come and purify themselves in repentance through this ritual washing which John was doing. So what John was doing wasn't instituting a new ritual, but taking an existing ritual and imbuing it with a specific significance--the significance of repentance in anticipation of the advent of God's salvation into the world through the arrival of the promised messianic deliverer.

    When Christ instituted Baptism for His Church, that was both a "new ritual" but also placed in the already established context of what was already familiar--the washing of water as an activity of God's mercy and power in a person's life is already established in the precedent of what had come before. But Christ takes what came before, and imbues them with His authority and power, giving them the significance of Himself.

    Which is why when St. Paul encounters a group of "disciples" near Ephesus he discovers that they are horribly uninformed, which causes him to ask, "What baptism have you received?" And they respond that they had received John's baptism--and it is from here that Paul had to illuminate their minds by giving them the full picture, and then provides them with Christian Baptism.

    John's baptism was a baptism of repentance in anticipation of Christ; the Sacrament of Holy Baptism which the Church administers in Christ's name, authority, and stead is that which Christ Himself instituted and gave for the purposes with which He gave it. So, for example, we read in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles that this specifically Christian Baptism, "in the name of the Lord Jesus", washed away sins and conferred the promise of the Holy Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38), and that this Baptism was for both those hearing these words (many very likely were familiar with John's baptism, and many may have even been washed in John's baptism), and for their children, and for all who are far away--all whom God shall call to Himself.

    And so the word of the Gospel came out of Jerusalem by the preaching of the Apostles, empowered by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost to the whole apostolic work to which they were called. They preached the word, and those who heard the word were received into the Church through Baptism, even entire oikia, households, were baptized as we read in a couple places in the Acts of the Apostles.

    Thus Christian Baptism has antecedent and precedent in what came before, even as the precious Eucharist which we celebrate is grounded in Paschal Seder, with Christ imbuing the breaking of bread and the drinking of the cup with new purpose and meaning. That the meal of remembrance of God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt is now fulfilled and given new and special meaning in a new sacred supper instituted by Christ--wherein here in/with/under these elements of bread and wine is Christ Himself fully--His flesh and His blood, broken and shed for us and for our sins. For which reason this Supper was of such sacred importance that St. Paul gives a strong warning against abusing the bread and wine of the Supper, because to sin against the Eucharist is to sin against Jesus' own very bodily flesh (because that is what we have here in the Supper, Christ's flesh and blood, 1 Corinthians 10:16).

    These sacred pledges from God to us, in which God works the revealed mystery of His redeeming and saving grace in our lives are called variously mysteria in Greek ("mysteries" because these are revealed acts of God's grace for us) and in Latin came to be called sacramenta, sacraments, meaning "a sacred pledge"--God's sacred pledge to us through these precious means which Christ has given, and the seal of God's grace and Spirit on us and our lives. In Baptism we have been "stamped" as it were with the very name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity; that is the kind of gift, work, and power of God this is for us.

  14. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

    That is an interesting statement...does not Isaiah 9:6&7 state...
    "6For unto us a child is born,
    unto us a son is given,
    and the government will be upon His shoulders.
    And He will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
    I believe that is one of the most famous trinitarian texts of all time. It was written 700 years B.C!
  15. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Hardly Trinitarian to first century Jews. I said and as ViaCrusis commented on, John's baptism was NOT Trinitarian as the Trinity had not been revealed, well, until John baptized Jesus.