• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Why is there no evidence that Jesus baptised with immersion in water?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by AdamjEdgar, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Im not convinced that the disciples hadn’t received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. I believe they already had received the Holy Spirit and that at Pentecost they had received the gift of tongues enabling them to speak in different languages so that they could spread the gospel. Jesus said that they already knew the Holy Spirit and that He abides with them in John 14. He also says that the Holy Spirit will be in them. So I think it’s interesting that the Holy Spirit will remain with them and will later be in them. I think perhaps being “in them” could mean that He will be working thru them.

    “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes I think perhaps that was the case.
     
  3. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

    +2,407
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Just thinking about this further is that we don't know how long John proclaiming his message. As the son of a priest, he probably would have had a decent education in Judaism. It had to have been for some time though, maybe even a few years for him to attract the notice of Herod Antipas and other authorities. He also had a number of followers as noted by Scripture. He knew he was simply preparing the way for Jesus so by the time Jesus starts his public ministry, Jesus had a natural base of followers and people open to His message. So if John had been baptizing for a couple of years, people would have been baptized by him, traveled elsewhere and would not be familiar with the Christian movement. They might have known that there was more to come but that would be about it. Once the apostles are now actively baptizing and preaching, they find these former followers of John and simply bring them into the faith with a Trinitarian baptism.
     
  4. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,617
    Sweden
    Christian
    Private
    I don't think it matters if it's immersion or pour on. I'm sure a few drops of water would be enough in a place where there are limited water resources.

    “But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water. But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; And if thou art not able in cold, then in warm. But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any other also who are able; And thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.” Didache 7:1-4 (c. 60-100 AD)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. plain jayne

    plain jayne Active Member

    242
    +331
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Where does the Bible says the Jesus "left the river and walked up to higher ground."? Who is assuming now? ;)

    All three gospels that have the baptism, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, only say that after the Spirit as a dove came and the Father spoke, Jesus was immediately led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness.

    There nothing about him leaving the river and walking up high ground. You have added to the Bible that which is not there.

    I've been on many lakes and rivers. Some have ground you have to climb, but many have flat ground level to the water that requires no "walking up". Here's a picture of the Jordan River that shows both.

    [​IMG]

    Whether he had to "climb" out of the river or not is not a hill I am willing to die on.

    There are too many people dying and going to hell - HUNDREDS on this forum alone who have openly rejected Christ. You believe what you will, but please don't add to scripture.
     
  6. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That’s some excellent contemplation friend. Sounds like a perfectly viable explanation although I’m sure we would both agree is speculation but nevertheless it’s a sound argument to consider as a possibility. I think it makes a lot of sense. :oldthumbsup:
     
  7. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +2,656
    Christian
    Private
    Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

    This marks the moment the disciplines recieved the HS. Before Pentecost but after the resurrection.
     
  8. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I’d still say that the definition of the Greek word baptismo is something to consider in light of Him coming up out of the water.
     
  9. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

    +2,407
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I have a varied interest in history so I try to approach things from a historical view. Some seem to think that Biblical events are happening in this mystical vacuum without regard to what else is going on in history. Israel's position is a major trading route in the eastern Mediterranean, located between Egypt, Greece, Roman, and Persia. So for the Bible's events to occur here is not a surprise. So I do my best to look at the history of the Jewish people and of the church within the historical context. Without understanding the historical context of the Pharisees, we just seem to think that they were evil incarnate. Instead, in the century prior to Christ, they basically laid the groundwork that the religion of the Jews was not just for priests to follow but for the Jewish people as a whole to follow. One of my favorite Pharisees is the Hillel the Elder,

    A gentile once challenged Shammai to teach him the wisdom of the Torah while he stood on one foot. Shammai drove him away. The same gentile approached Hillel and asked of him the same thing. Hillel chastised him gently by saying, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation – now go and study."
    Jesus expands on Hillel's "Silver Rule" with the "Golden Rule", turning it from a negative command, to a positive one.

    Heck, there have been people that have thought that the Greek in the Scriptures was a special form of Greek.

    History of the Greek Language | billmounce.com

    For a long time Koine Greek confused many scholars. It was significantly different from Classical Greek. Some hypothesized that it was a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Others attempted to explain it as a "Holy Ghost language," meaning that God created a special language just for the Bible. But studies of Greek papyri found in Egypt over the past one hundred years have shown that this language was the language of the everyday people used in the writings of wills, private letters, receipts, shopping lists, etc.​
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Perhaps, it truly is hard to say for certain. I think we would agree that we do see evidence of the Holy Spirit in the disciples before Pentecost, even before Jesus’ arrest for that matter.
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +2,656
    Christian
    Private
    I think the language favours immersion not to mention the parallels of death and resurrection are foreshadowed in baptism so with that in mind immersion seems fitting. However if we hyper focus on the method I think we miss the point. I have heard of individuals in desert climates where water is scarce being "dunked" into a coffin and rising out as their fourm of baptism. What passion that shows. Some people may have a problem with that but if it gives glory to God then I applaud it. Scarcity of water should not be a reason to not get baptised and generally people wait far to long thinking the all the right things need to be in place when their bath tub is fine with the friends that told them about Jesus.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    +4,756
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I must admit I haven’t done much study on the Jewish customs and history. It truly is fascinating to me how we can examine these and bring a new light to the scriptures and better understand why certain things may have taken place or why certain things may have been said the way they were worded. I’m sure there are several figures of speech that are probably recorded in the scriptures that could have alternative meanings in the Jewish community during that time.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +29,749
    Anglican
    Married
    The fact that a person leaving a river bed would have to come "up" to reach dry land is indisputable, as is the fact that this is how it could be and is referred to.

    The assumption that Jesus was completely under the water in a shallow part of this river is quite something to accept in itself, but it's also an assumption that the less likely of the two possibilities--being totally submerged vs. walking "up" and "out" upon leaving that place--was for certain what happened.

    So how does that verify your idea that the baptism was by immersion??

    Thank you. Both of those show that a person would have to "come up" out of the water in order to leave the river.

    On one side, it would be something of a climb, but on the other, there still is a significant "step up." Remember that Jesus had to be standing in three or four feet of water--at the least--for there even to BE a baptism by immersion (meaning total submersion under the water). So where he was standing determines the start for his coming "up" when he left.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +29,749
    Anglican
    Married
    It is always considered.

    But the word does not mean submerge. At least it doesn't mean that exclusively.

    It also can also mean to wash, dip, and several other things. In short, the definition of the word doesn't resolve the dispute.
     
  15. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +831
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    The Apostles taught what Jesus taught, and did what Jesus commanded them to do. If you don't believe that, Christianity is not worth following. The fact that they taught something or did something IS the evidence that Jesus taught them and commanded them to do so.
     
  16. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

    +2,407
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    And it's not that it is a new light but rather one that comes from being immersed in the history of the church. Plus reading Greek on a regular basis doesnt hurt. There are nuances that are lost in going from one language to another, and then again 2000 years into the future from 1st century.
     
  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,626
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    I believe John 20 states the event. Jesus breathed on them, no water involved.
     
  18. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,626
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Possible but I do not see it that way. I believe Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit at that time. Or could be both.
     
  19. Simon D

    Simon D New Member

    67
    +34
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Widowed
    The act of water baptism simply represents our Saviour's sacrifice on the cross. We are immersed in water and rise, as Jesus died and rose from the grave.

    Jesus did not Baptise with water because he didn't. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. The baptism of Spirit is for those who believe in Him. The Holy Spirt enters us and we become Spiritually alive, when we believe.
     
  20. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

    +2,301
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Mikvehs gained popularity in Judaism a century earlier, so no John the Baptist did not invent it.
    The Greek word baptism means 'to plunge' so most were immersions, not to mention a mikveh is considered an immersion and not a pouring or dabbing or anything. Jews from 100bc to 70ad went out of their way to construct mini pools where the entire body could be submerged.
     
Loading...