Why do other Christians hate Calvinist so much?

[Skala]

Bro, your statements prove that you do not understand Calvinism. Please listen with an open mind to friendly correction.

what good does it do for me to repent and believe or even to repent or believe if I am not of the elect?

The non-elect do not want to repent and believe.

It's not that some people repent and believe but yet God turns them away. That's a misunderstanding. But rather, it's that no human being would ever repent and believe except God elects him and changes his heart by grace so that he is willing to do what formerly he was unwilling to do.

If I am in before time begin as we know it, it won't matter what I do or Don't do, I am in!!!

Again, that is simply not true.

God has not only ordained the ends, but also the means to those ends. He has chosen to use the gospel message as the tool to bring sinners to salvation. Through our evangelizing, God visits sinners with salvation and leads them to faith and repentance, changes their hearts, takes off their spiritual blindfolds. We plant the seed but God gives the increase.

It is not true that "no matter what you do or don't do" you will be saved. Such a notion means that the ends can happen without the means. But that is not how God works. He uses means to accomplish the ends.

Every single person who ends up in heaven will have repented and believed, because they wanted to repent and believe. Every single person that ends up in hell will have not repented and believed, because they do not want to repent and believe due to still being hostile towards God, as all fallen men are.

This response is sufficient to answer the rest of your post. It all applies to your arguments and concerns about "Why this, why that".

Please my friend, I beg you, please stop bashing the daylights out of that strawman you have built in your mind about what election and predestination means.



I say this with respect brother. You are not contributing in a positive manner to this conversation. You are painting innaccurate pictures of what other Christians believe. Either by ignorance or you're doing it on purpose. Please stop. Please listen to correction.

You can disagree with Calvinism all you want, that's not something I mind. But the minute you start outright lying about what I believe, then we have a problem between us. It is not respectful. It is not scholarly. Your arguments seem emotionally driven therefore you come across as not caring whether or not you are accurately presenting the views of others.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Deep thoughts?! Deeper thoughts: following Jesus, having his peace and patience in yourself. Paul was right to call Christians with their enhanced faith weak (Days believers, food believers, abstention believers, etc.) Why didn't he argue and establish himself over these weak Christians? Actually he did, but he taught us to love our weaker ones and to be like them in their presence. He said that God will have these ones to stand and make it. It wasn't our place to interfere with God's servants. If you are knowing so much, then know this that you must be known by God to be obeying and following his son; to understand Jesus' heart and God's will.

What is the letter of the Law? It is the will of God and none less. To be known by God, you must know his son and his heart. The letter of the Law is in the precious blood of Christ. Know Jesus, not as a mind tries to figure it all out, but know him by actions, not by mental inquiries. Act on his word in faith and reap the rewards now and forever. Faith is not a mental exercise, but the simplest thing of all, just doing as Jesus commanded us. Knowledge is by doing, as honesty is by speaking the truth.

 

[greatdivide46]

If you aren't of the elect, you won't repent and believe.

That's easy to say if you're one of the elect.

 

[cimbk]

Aren't you assuming that disbelief is passive non-action?

It seems that unbelief is outright rebellion.

The command to repent and believe is a command, an imperative. It is not a well wish or a suggestion.

To not do those things is to spit in God's face, say he's unjust for commanding such a thing, rebel, disobey, etc.

That's not "neutrality", that's hate!

Further, the bible says that all fallen people are hostile to God, enemies of God, haters of God. Not that people are neutral towards God.

I'm not sure how an unbeliever who never heard of Jesus could hate what he never knew, seems a bit impossible to me, but regardless the end result is the same

 

[phoenixdem]

Romans

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me​

thus?

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction:

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the​

Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not
my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto
them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children​

of the living God.

 

[phoenixdem]

I'm not sure how an unbeliever who never heard of Jesus could hate what he never knew, seems a bit impossible to me, but regardless the end result is the same

It goes back to the natural depravity of man. There are verses in Scripture that address this issue. I won't quote them unless you want me too.

 

[cimbk]

they had God directly speaking to them in the old testament and they had the word of God, and He still spoke through dreams and visions, they had Jesus directly speaking to them in the new testament, and they had the word of God and God spoke to Peter through a dream, Joel's prophecy the one Peter preached at pentecost said that there would be dreams and visions, in a time from when God would poured out His Spirit on all flesh and until the sun darken and the moon turned to blood. but yeah you probably are right God don't work that way anymore! NOT !!!

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and tomorrow!

good grief! at least someone here can rightly divide the word, sometimes its the simpliest plainly written passages people can't seem to except

 

[cimbk]

Just from a purely technical side, in the OT, and until after the resurrectioin, anybody who was not a Hebrew or a Jew were excluded from the blessings of God, this included Pharoah, Nebucadnezzar, and Cyrus.

Remember what Jesus said to the Samaritian woman?

"salvation is of the Jews." -Jn. 4:22 (KJV)

In order to enjoy the blessings of God, in the OT one had to convert to Judaism and this included "ritual" circumcision as per the Law.

I have not found anywhere where Pharoah, Nebucabnezzar, or Cyrus ever converted to Judaism.

Was Pharoah, Nebucabnezzar, or Cyrus a Jew?

Point and match.

Point being, even though these people were outside the blessings of God, outside looking in at the Hebrews/Jews, in God's infinite plan, He made use of them to show forth His glory, power, and majesty.

And that is the point.

God Bless

Till all are one.

we also see on judgement day all those before the time of Jesus will be judged according to their works, and from scripture we see some will go on to everlasting life and others to eternal hell.........these will have never known who Jesus was

 

[cimbk]

I wonder, if we were all in a room together having this debate in person would it come to blows between some of us? sure seems that way. Faceofbear gave the best advice when he said we will be judged for every idle word and Lord knows I have had my share of them the past few days, Father forgive me.

and if we were in the same room and face of a bear actually had a face of a bear who would argue with him?

 

[cimbk]

Bro, your statements prove that you do not understand Calvinism. Please listen with an open mind to friendly correction.



The non-elect do not want to repent and believe.

It's not that some people repent and believe but yet God turns them away. That's a misunderstanding. But rather, it's that no human being would ever repent and believe except God elects him and changes his heart by grace so that he is willing to do what formerly he was unwilling to do.



Again, that is simply not true.

God has not only ordained the ends, but also the means to those ends. He has chosen to use the gospel message as the tool to bring sinners to salvation. Through our evangelizing, God visits sinners with salvation and leads them to faith and repentance, changes their hearts, takes off their spiritual blindfolds. We plant the seed but God gives the increase.

It is not true that "no matter what you do or don't do" you will be saved. Such a notion means that the ends can happen without the means. But that is not how God works. He uses means to accomplish the ends.

Every single person who ends up in heaven will have repented and believed, because they wanted to repent and believe. Every single person that ends up in hell will have not repented and believed, because they do not want to repent and believe due to still being hostile towards God, as all fallen men are.

This response is sufficient to answer the rest of your post. It all applies to your arguments and concerns about "Why this, why that".

Please my friend, I beg you, please stop bashing the daylights out of that strawman you have built in your mind about what election and predestination means.



I say this with respect brother. You are not contributing in a positive manner to this conversation. You are painting innaccurate pictures of what other Christians believe. Either by ignorance or you're doing it on purpose. Please stop. Please listen to correction.

You can disagree with Calvinism all you want, that's not something I mind. But the minute you start outright lying about what I believe, then we have a problem between us. It is not respectful. It is not scholarly. Your arguments seem emotionally driven therefore you come across as not caring whether or not you are accurately presenting the views of others.

And what do you say about the many that are called but few chosen?

 

[Hupomone10]

subscribing...............

God bless

Not sure what you're getting at with this or if maybe you meant UNsubscribing (in which case you're not reading this anyway!), but in your snipping, you snipped the quote that the individual objecting actually made and included the quotes he didn't.

Just to let you know...

In Christ,
H.

 

[faceofbear]

and if we were in the same room and face of a bear actually had a face of a bear who would argue with him?

Lol.

 

[Skala]

And what do you say about the many that are called but few chosen?

I'd say that many are called but few are chosen



In all seriousness I am not sure that parable has anything to do with election, but the manner at which we come to God.

Everyone was invited to the feast, and of the ones that showed up, if anyone was not dressed in the proper attire, they were cast out. In like manner if one comes to God without being clothed in Christ's righteousness, he is cast out. He did not come before the Lord clothed properly. If anyone enters in by any other door than Christ, he is a thief and a robber. Christ is the only way to the Father.

What are your thoughts on the parable brother?

 

[VCViking]

good grief! at least someone here can rightly divide the word, sometimes its the simpliest plainly written passages people can't seem to except

Though this is off topic, I will respond one last time.

Again, it depends what your view of Eschatology is. Therefore I disagree with you.

Preview of the Second Coming, Part 2

Here is a protion of the above link.

And so, you have the coming of the Holy Spirit. You have the manifestation of fire coming down on the individuals. You have signs and wonders by the speaking of languages they didn't know. All of this announcing the arrival of the Spirit of God giving birth to the church.
Now the people didn't really understand what all this was. In verse 12 it says they were perplexed and they said, "What is this?" And some decided they must be drunk. But down in verse 16, Peter says, "This is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel." And then he quotes down through verse...no 20, 21, a whole section out of Joel 2. Now listen, that is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming, that whole section. Verse 17, "It come to pass in the last days...I'll pour out My Spirit on all flesh, your sons and daughters prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams, on My servants and handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit, they shall prophesy," it talks about wonders in heaven, signs in the earth, blood, fire, vapor of smoke, the sun turn to darkness, the moon to blood, before the great notable day of the Lord comes and so forth.

Now, as you read that prophecy of Joel, you know that it's related to the Second Coming. You also know that everything that is promised in that prophecy by Joel did not happen on the day of Pentecost. But what did happen on the day of Pentecost, according to verse 16, is this is that which was spoken. In other words, here is a preview, or here is a sample, or here is an element of final glory, of final Kingdom events. You have a taste today at Pentecost of what will come in its fullness when Jesus returns, you see? It isn't that Peter is saying all of that is fulfilled today, no, he's saying you're getting a glimpse of that final glory, you're getting a taste of that final fulfillment.

And in fact, it isn't just that this can be seen in Acts 2, everything Jesus did, all of His signs and wonders and miracles, all of those done by the Apostles, all of His marvelous teaching, His effect in the world, was a taste of Second Coming glory. That's why the writer of Hebrews says, "You have had a taste of the good things to come."

And so what you have here then is our Lord saying to them so that you will never doubt the reality of the Second Coming, I'm going to give you a glimpse of glory, I'm going to give you another taste of Second‑Coming reality so that you do not doubt. And as I said, it comes in a marvelously important time because it comes at a time when they needed balance. They had just heard about suffering. They had learned that Jesus was a suffering Savior and now they needed to see a glimpse of Him as a glorious King. They had been reminded that His...His followers would share His sorrows and they needed also to know that His followers could share His glory as well. They knew that as a suffering Savior He called them to self‑denial, cross bearing, and loyal obedience at any price, even their life. They needed also to know that as a King He offered them a King's reward. And so there's a balancing here in their hearts as they are exposed to the majesty of Second‑Coming glory that they might know that humiliation now means glory then. And as the epistles tell us, if we suffer with Him, we shall be glorified with Him also.

And so, the marvelous, miraculous preview of final glory is to remind them that it is going to come to pass. And to fill their hearts with assurance and hope in the midst of great despair. - John MacArthur

 

[twin1954]

I believe my post concerned the three kings. They came from the East to worship the Messiah. Isn't that the trait of faith? The Scriptures tell us that the Law never saved anyone and salvation has always, read that ALWAYS, been through Grace by faith. I wouldn't say they came to worship God, but weren't saved. That sort of judgement is best left to God.

I think that you missed Dean's point. He wasn't judging them eternally he was making the point that as far as the physical outward sight they were outside of the people of God. Yet God used them for His glory and the good of His people. We also are not told whether they worshipped many god's one of which was the Hebrew God. We do know that they had kind intentions toward the Hebrew people and that is about it. We must notice that not one of them is said to have been circuncised and became a Jew.

 

[Hupomone10]

Is it not true that God can do whatever he wants to do?

I could say that 'no, God cannot do whatever He wants to do, for He cannot lie.' But even I would respond to that by saying 'God doesn't WANT to lie, so there!'

But I can pretty accurately say that even if God wanted to make a circle square He couldn't do so; and if He wanted to make a person who is born in China also born in America He couldn't do so. Only Obama has been able to accomplish that (born in Kenya, born in America).

In the same way, God is not willing or 'wanting' that any perish, but He also does not want to create a world where when all events, circumstances, and individual makeups and hereditary traits are so identical that we get only one outcome, even if that outcome is that all that are born do accept Christ. If memory serves me correctly, Jonathan Edwards taught that God didn't just use irresistible force to get individuals to believe; He arranged things such that the elect would unfailingly believe. Not that they had to believe, but that they would believe. He cannot do that in every individual case and remain righteous, or He would. This is how it works IMHO, based on the evidence, both from the Word and from life.

H.

 

[phoenixdem]

I think that you missed Dean's point. He wasn't judging them eternally he was making the point that as far as the physical outward sight they were outside of the people of God. Yet God used them for His glory and the good of His people. We also are not told whether they worshipped many god's one of which was the Hebrew God. We do know that they had kind intentions toward the Hebrew people and that is about it. We must notice that not one of them is said to have been circuncised and became a Jew.

Circumcision really doesn't matter. In the Book of Romans, Paul makes a point that Abraham wasn't circumcized when God came to him, but Abraham believed God and that counted for righteousness. Paul was talking about faith over works of the law as the means to salvation. My point is that the "physical outward sight" of circumcison didn't matter. The fact that they did come to worship Christ does count for a lot. Does that mean that they were saved or unsaved? I don't know, but then I don't have to know. God knows His people.

 

[phoenixdem]

"He cannot do that in every individual case and remain righteous, or He would. "

Why not?

 

[Skala]

I could say that 'no, God cannot do whatever He wants to do, for He cannot lie.' But even I would respond to that by saying 'God doesn't WANT to lie, so there!'

But I can pretty accurately say that even if God wanted to make a circle square He couldn't do so; and if He wanted to make a person who is born in China also born in America He couldn't do so.

These examples still make the statement above true brother. The original assertion was that God can do what he wants to do. As you rightly stated, he doesn't want to lie. You said "I would respond to that by saying he doesn't want to lie, so there!" but no "follow up" response is necessary on your part brother because the original assertion already included the qualifying words "..wants to do.."

About circle/square and China, again, God does not want to act illogically. Logic (truth) flows from God who is the source of all truth. A square is a square because logically, it is a square. It cannot be a circle and a square at the same time, that is not logical. And God, who is logical, does not want to be illogical



Fun topic though

PS: I'm glad to see other Christians enjoying Jonathan Edwards. He was brilliant!

 

[twin1954]

Circumcision really doesn't matter. In the Book of Romans, Paul makes a point that Abraham wasn't circumcized when God came to him, but Abraham believed God and that counted for righteousness. Paul was talking about faith over works of the law as the means to salvation. My point is that the "physical outward sight" of circumcison didn't matter. The fact that they did come to worship Christ does count for a lot. Does that mean that they were saved or unsaved? I don't know, but then I don't have to know. God knows His people.

And my point was that you all jumped on Dean as though he were judging their eternal state but he wasn't. He was using them to make a point.