Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

JoeP222w

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Romans 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
 
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Serving Zion

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I'm sorry but I do not see where you are discussing the reason for accountability. I see where you are discussing the reason for why we are judged but not why we are even in the courtroom in the first place.

Here's a few quotes that I have identified, as I have been putting it to you in a number of different ways:

It was neither He nor you who decided to give you life, but it was your parents' decisions that led to your birth. BTW, life is meant to be a blessing .. something to be grateful for!

The basic answer is like this: the way that you have operated your life has impacted the lives of others. This is why you are accountable for it. Just as a driver of that car is accountable for how he operated the car .. whether he was careless and harmed others with it, or whether he was generous to share the ride with someone who needed a ride.

This is absolutely true, but what of those who have never heard the gospel - or worse still, have been wrongly turned against the gospel by false teachers who have mischaracterised God?

There is an age at which we begin to oppose inconvenient truths. Judgement, forgiveness, love and dominance are all central to this, which is why it is found that the letter of the law quickens while the spirit of the law gives life.

Here's a cute example: a 3 year old child walking past as we were cutting down a tree last year, he picked up one of our pieces of wood and was going to take it home :D - "Hey!" snapped the tree owner. "Put that back! That's not yours!" his Mum said. The poor kid, he dropped it, having a worried look on his face "I'm in trouble???". I was just grinning at him because I knew that he knew no wrong. That was a bit helpful I think, else what kind of world have we made for him?

But not only Jesus, also those who have begrudged us, they hold resentment against us - who may they appeal to if we claim to represent the highest authority? When they bring charges, are they right to do so?

.. also, you will benefit by reading this pov, as it has an impact to show that if it was not for the sinfulness of the parents then the children would be angels. But the parent's sinfulness creates a monster. The child resents that, as do the some-day victims of that child. This is why the parents are accountable (but not necessarily condemned), as also the children will be accountable (but not necessarily condemned).

So, culpability and condemnation are hugely relevant to this topic, as the justification for your complaint.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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IMO if those parents do not know the answer to the question of existence and why we are accountable... they would be crazy to have more children.

My MARRIED, college educated parents actually did everything to prophylactically "prevent" me from being born in this curren paradigm. They realized the existential burden of having a child in this current iteration, and really never planned on having me. I actually came about when a doctor insisted my mom go on "better, more equilibrated, but stronger" prophylaxis - promising that if I was born my tuition would be free.

Well... here I am. I went to uni on scholarship from the institution, not the doctor.

So, I consider my position unique in the sense that:
  • My parents deeply thought about the risks and detriments of having a child
  • Used proper prophylaxis
  • "Ascertained" the risks of possible pregnancy on particular controls
  • Made a conscious decision to be married without children
  • Did not dump me in a dumpster when I was born.
  • I cannot, in good conscious, point a finger at my parents
In fact, when I was born my mom was told to abort me right there. She chose life instead.

So, I cannot blame my parents for bringing me into this world because they did everything they could, responsibly weighing the times. They were MARRIED, so technically they didn't have to use control at all. So, the option that is most infuriating is that my birth - especially seeing and hearing all of the medical implications having grown up - was an act of Providence. It was purely an allowance of God.

This begs the usual existential questions with perhaps more "sauce":

  • Why, then am I here?
  • Is my experience meaningful? In other words, do I have to make it meaningful, or does someone/something else do it for me?
  • Am I a simple agent of life with no real purpose (i.e. an animated, nameless character in the background similar to a video game or movie)?
    • If not, then who/what am I?
    • If yes, then why keep me around for so long? (This isn't a suicide appeal, this is an existential appeal: why keep me around if the main characters have "cleared" the area I serve as a background character? Or, when/has it been cleared?
      • When will it be cleared?
  • Should I invest in this life?
And, if I happen to believe in, or know God exists, these questions suddenly become arrogance, instead of what it is to the individual - an existential identity inquiry, possibly a crisis of self and faith. Instead, it now requires the individual to be focused on the beauty and majesty of his or her conception in general - and at all. In addition, existence is something that shouldn't be critiqued; it is a gift that you have no right to reject, give back or question the worth thereof. It usually creates psychological, intellectual and egotistical calamity within the individual. That leads to other "pathologies..."

This is really a gargantuan issue: the issue, "ethics, morality" and quality of choice in one's birth. A lot of what I posted sounds like suicide red flags; while it is true that meaningful essence of these existential questions provoke the individual to consider these philosophies in a very physical, it is no less important, I believe, to the individual in general. And, it doesn't signal suicide - in fact, I would say most "suicide" talk is NOT actually the suicidal psychology. It is some steps before, or past the point of serious contemplation, but the philosophy itself does not constitute suicidal behavior.

With talking (or, listening) to people around the world, and in different settings of vulnerability, I have come to a conclusion that my philosophical history, experience and ideas toward procreation and current world paradigms is not unique. In fact, it is actually quite ordinary.

Why, then, is this a taboo subject - suicide implications and all? In my experience, it is not that it is taboo, it is that it reveals a vulnerability that humans naturally feel compelled to gaurd. That, alone should reveal a reason why one may want to consider current paradigms and children - if only so that they aren't squelched due to fear of exploitation of vulnerability. This fear of being vulnerable extends to, and includes God, a god, your ego, or whoever/whatever you deem your "superior." Isn't that something...
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Ok.... time for a full disclosure:

Salvation as explained by others is an on-going thing. For a human to continue pursuit of something there has to be a need.

I have been struggling with the feeling of NOT having enough guilt because I cannot seem to feel guilty for sins committed in a life/occupation/car (whatever analogy you want) not chosen by me. Therefore I feel that if I can come to understand why we are held accountable for something we never chose to be apart of then it will help me to be more "humbled" as you say and feel more guilty about sin and therefore feel more need for forgiveness and Christ.

Also, my son passed away a while ago and Ygrene has opened the floor to another question that coincides with my OP - why would you have children if they are bound to be accountable for a life not chosen?

There I said it.

I apologize for that to you and others. It really was not my intention to open up any old wounds. I may have been generally insensitive toward many on the thread, because I was trying to speak as objectively (perhaps even didactally) as possible without really thinking about how hard it may be for other people to speak about it in general.

I figured/assumed that if people were comfortable talking about it at all (and, without alarming red flags of abuse or harm,) they were in a decent enough place to "go deep without regard." Which, may have been true.

But it was still ignorant to assume.
 
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dc87

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Romans 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

this basically says... dont ask any questions and be happy....
 
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dc87

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Here's a few quotes that I have identified, as I have been putting it to you in a number of different ways:













.. also, you will benefit by reading this pov, as it has an impact to show that if it was not for the sinfulness of the parents then the children would be angels. But the parent's sinfulness creates a monster. The child resents that, as do the some-day victims of that child. This is why the parents are accountable (but not necessarily condemned), as also the children will be accountable (but not necessarily condemned).

So, culpability and condemnation are hugely relevant to this topic, as the justification for your complaint.

this again, addresses why we are judged but not why we are accountable. you are using the term accountable incorrectly. you should really be using the term judge.

the car analogy shows this. you think the actions the driver takes while in the car are what makes him liable. no actually it is the fact that they CHOSE to drive the car in the first place. at THAT time after they CHOSE to drive the car... thats why they are accountable. my argument is that we did NOT choose to drive this car.

i think you have missed the question. thanks for the responses though.
 
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dc87

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I apologize for that to you and others. It really was not my intention to open up any old wounds. I may have been generally insensitive toward many on the thread, because I was trying to speak as objectively (perhaps even didactally) as possible without really thinking about how hard it may be for other people to speak about it in general.

I figured/assumed that if people were comfortable talking about it at all (and, without alarming red flags of abuse or harm,) they were in a decent enough place to "go deep without regard." Which, may have been true.

But it was still ignorant to assume.

actually you are one of the few who I think have addressed and understood the original question and I am thankful for it! you seem to be focused on the parental accountability for having a child which is cool and i ponder the same. I am also more concerned though on why (regardless of parents) the individual is accountable to God for a life such as yours and mine NOT chosen by the individual. (the parents though liable - will not be paying for the sins of the children). ?
 
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this again, addresses why we are judged but not why we are accountable. you are using the term accountable incorrectly. you should really be using the term judge.

the car analogy shows this. you think the actions the driver takes while in the car are what makes him liable. no actually it is the fact that they CHOSE to drive the car in the first place. at THAT time after they CHOSE to drive the car... thats why they are accountable. my argument is that we did NOT choose to drive this car.

i think you have missed the question. thanks for the responses though.
No, actually, this is good! Let's go one further:

When the car driver is required to give an account, who is it that requires him to give account? Why can he simply not return the car when he has finished, and that's that?

If we translate this to the Christian analogy, then who is it that requires us to give an account? Why does He require us to give an account rather than just ending up grateful?
 
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JoeP222w

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this basically says... dont ask any questions and be happy....

No, not really. It is saying that the creation (man) has no right to make judgment over God (the Creator), to tell God that the creation knows better than the Creator. God wants us to seek answers from Him, but in humility and genuine desire to know, not in pride and arrogance that we presume to tell God He is doing it wrong, as to make ourselves God.
 
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Serving Zion

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OP, the last two responses here have a common theme: it is about us coming to acknowledge and accept God's point of view. Naturally, sometimes we have been hurt and sometimes tricked by the world, and it puts up this barrier between us and God. This is especially true when we have been hurt and we think that God should have done something different to prevent that harm.
 
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dc87

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No, not really. It is saying that the creation (man) has no right to make judgment over God (the Creator), to tell God that the creation knows better than the Creator. God wants us to seek answers from Him, but in humility and genuine desire to know, not in pride and arrogance that we presume to tell God He is doing it wrong, as to make ourselves God.

... Ok...?
 
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dc87

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No, actually, this is good! Let's go one further:

When the car driver is required to give an account, who is it that requires him to give account? Why can he simply not return the car when he has finished, and that's that?

If we translate this to the Christian analogy, then who is it that requires us to give an account? Why does He require us to give an account rather than just ending up grateful?

Lets establish a more agreed upon analogy before dissecting it.

Ok... is this a accurate/fair analogy?

"The driver (man) is forced into a car (aka life). The driver is then forced (by whatever means you choose to imagine) to drive until the road ends. During this trip the driver encounters many many obstacles (temptations) that can do damage to the vehicle. The driver can also drive the car off the road at any time (suicide) or can choose to continue driving until the road ends. Regardless, at the end of trip, the driver is then held liable for any damage incurred to the vehicle."

Is this a fair analogy of spiritual life on earth? Anything you want to add?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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actually you are one of the few who I think have addressed and understood the original question and I am thankful for it! you seem to be focused on the parental accountability for having a child which is cool and i ponder the same. I am also more concerned though on why (regardless of parents) the individual is accountable to God for a life such as yours and mine NOT chosen by the individual. (the parents though liable - will not be paying for the sins of the children). ?

I wonder that also. I also wonder if my ignorant self chose to be born, though knowing what I know now I seriously doubt I ever volunteered to spend time on earth. It would have had to be an order.

It bothers me also that we are all accountable to God, mainly because none of us realize until at least pubescence that existing means we could face eternal damnation. By the age of accountability, we are fully immersed in the curse. Chris died for us so that we could be saved, but that saved number is - by the mouth of God Himself - marginal. Moreover, it is easier to go to hell than it is to make it to heaven (it seems.) And, on top of that we have to have faith enough to hope that God will accept us. This is not to mention the constant barrage of demonic oppression and exploits.

But, it doesnt really matter to me anymore; I tend to ignore the issue (and sometimes God,) because the whole thing seems impossible. Yet, when one begs for fruits of spirit, if God allows those fruits to befall us, we still have to go through a lifetime of doubt, stress, calamity, horrors and loneliness - without breaking.

The cliche that "God doesnt put more on you than can handle is not right. In fact, I would say He puts more on us than we can handle to force us to come to Him.

I just get perturbed by the issue, especially when told that the clay can't ask the Potter why. There is no guarantee that one will make it even if they go through severe trauma, or trials. That is what worries me, personally.
 
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dc87

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I wonder that also. I also wonder if my ignorant self chose to be born, though knowing what I know now I seriously doubt I ever volunteered to spend time on earth. It would have had to be an order.

It bothers me also that we are all accountable to God, mainly because none of us realize until at least pubescence that existing means we could face eternal damnation. By the age of accountability, we are fully immersed in the curse. Chris died for us so that we could be saved, but that saved number is - by the mouth of God Himself - marginal. Moreover, it is easier to go to hell than it is to make it to heaven (it seems.) And, on top of that we have to have faith enough to hope that God will accept us. This is not to mention the constant barrage of demonic oppression and exploits.

But, it doesnt really matter to me anymore; I tend to ignore the issue (and sometimes God,) because the whole thing seems impossible. Yet, when one begs for fruits of spirit, if God allows those fruits to befall us, we still have to go through a lifetime of doubt, stress, calamity, horrors and loneliness - without breaking.

The cliche that "God doesnt put more on you than can handle is not right. In fact, I would say He puts more on us than we can handle to force us to come to Him.

I just get perturbed by the issue, especially when told that the clay can't ask the Potter why. There is no guarantee that one will make it even if they go through severe trauma, or trials. That is what worries me, personally.

i could not agree more.
 
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Lets establish a more agreed upon analogy before dissecting it.

Ok... is this a accurate/fair analogy?

"The driver (man) is forced into a car (aka life). The driver is then forced (by whatever means you choose to imagine) to drive until the road ends. During this trip the driver encounters many many obstacles (temptations) that can do damage to the vehicle. The driver can also drive the car off the road at any time (suicide) or can choose to continue driving until the road ends. Regardless, at the end of trip, the driver is then held liable for any damage incurred to the vehicle."

Is this a fair analogy of spiritual life on earth? Anything you want to add?
I see only three issues in this:

1. The driver existed before being forced into the car - there is no evidence to suggest that we existed before birth.
2. The obstacles (temptations) that the driver encounters is largely dependent upon his character - therefore a reflection upon his education, society and family.
3. Whether the driver is liable for the damage to or by the vehicle, is largely dependent upon his onus/culpability (fault/cause) - hence my central question.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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i could not agree more.


My "vinegar" stems from being a young single man with no children who has lived through enough to be in my "20s going on 60." And, i dont say that in a positive way; as I told someone else on this thread, I was starting to see myself age (almost like milk.) My family treated my parents and I like used excrement - sabotaging us and lying to the point where it cost me my livelihood. Guess why? Because I was being bred to be an object of control against my parents, and I had the audacity to see through this. And, of course, if you have no (worldly) livelihood, you are useless; "naturally," my friends exited stage left. And, those are just the vanilla incidents. So, for me having children is superfluous because I have been shown there is no loyalty in blood. So, my child would be born into a "family" whose number you can count on one hand - and would become an enemy of the world by default. Then, s/he would have to be even more enduring just to survive this world.

So, I can't imagine adding the extra layers of dimension you have for your situation. What happened to you is one of my worries.

How do you reconcile what is going on with you? Did you have any apprehensions about having kids before? And, what do you think of all of this now?
 
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Christ died for us so that we could be saved, but that saved number is - by the mouth of God Himself - marginal.

I just get perturbed by the issue, especially when told that the clay can't ask the Potter why. There is no guarantee that one will make it even if they go through severe trauma, or trials. That is what worries me, personally.
Hi Ygrene, could you please show me the scriptures you are referring to in these? Thank you.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Hi Ygrene, could you please show me the scriptures you are referring to in these? Thank you.

Sure.

"Christ died for us so that we could be saved"

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. - John 5:24

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. - 1 John 5:10-13


"that saved number is - by the mouth of God Himself - marginal. "

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14
 
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Sure.

"Christ died for us so that we could be saved"

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. - John 5:24

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. - 1 John 5:10-13


"that saved number is - by the mouth of God Himself - marginal. "

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14
Thank you for this. It is only for the OP that I am remarking on this, and he might seek details if needed:

This seems to suggest that the only ones who may be accepted in the final judgement (to everlasting life) are those who have believed in The Son. This raises some important questions: What of those who have not heard the gospel?

The afterlife is mostly speculative, so I hesitate to venture into speculation. Yet the scriptures I have read are indicating that there is a final resurrection to judgement. Then there is lake of fire for those who are condemned. The criteria for the lake of fire is not the same as the criteria for life in the verses you have produced: Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:8.

This has to fit in the context of the Apocalypse: Jesus returns, the dead are resurrected and judged, some to life and some to destruction (Matthew 25:31-46). Note in the Matthew prophecy spoken by Jesus Himself in the flesh, all people of all nations are drafted, and the criteria is not about who has believed the gospel. The criteria is about how we have treated others.

Those verses you have quoted are describing that a majority of Christians do not receive the gospel of truth and righteousness, but some false doctrine that has compromised kingdom power (2 Peter 2:1-2).

Just as John 3:36, John 5:24 and 1 John 5:10-13 show that a person needs to first hear the son before he can choose to believe or reject the son, many Christians are tempted to abandon the truth of The Holy Spirit when their church superiors insist that they should come under the jurisdiction of one of the false doctrines in their church creed.

Often, new Christians will encounter some doctrine that doesn't really make sense to them, but because they want to belong to the church that they might worship with them and not be ostracised, most will compromise their convictions and concede to peer pressure of the more experienced Christians, thereby departing from the truth.

.. so, can these ones be condemned for not having believed The Son? Only God knows! .. have they ever even heard the gospel as delivered by The Son? (eg: Matthew 10:40 vs Jeremiah 23:21).

Think on Joel 2:11-14 then, as it applies to life and death when one encounters the Word of truth.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Thank you for this. It is only for the OP that I am remarking on this, and he might seek details if needed:

This seems to suggest that the only ones who may be accepted in the final judgement (to everlasting life) are those who have believed in The Son. This raises some important questions: What of those who have not heard the gospel?

The afterlife is mostly speculative, so I hesitate to venture into speculation. Yet the scriptures I have read are indicating that there is a final resurrection to judgement. Then there is lake of fire for those who are condemned. The criteria for the lake of fire is not the same as the criteria for life in the verses you have produced: Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:8.

This has to fit in the context of the Apocalypse: Jesus returns, the dead are resurrected and judged, some to life and some to destruction (Matthew 25:31-46). Note in the Matthew prophecy spoken by Jesus Himself in the flesh, all people of all nations are drafted, and the criteria is not about who has believed the gospel. The criteria is about how we have treated others.

Those verses you have quoted are describing that a majority of Christians do not receive the gospel of truth and righteousness, but some false doctrine that has compromised kingdom power (2 Peter 2:1-2).

Just as John 3:36, John 5:24 and 1 John 5:10-13 show that a person needs to first hear the son before he can choose to believe or reject the son, many Christians are tempted to abandon the truth of The Holy Spirit when their church superiors insist that they should come under the jurisdiction of one of the false doctrines in their church creed.

Often, new Christians will encounter some doctrine that doesn't really make sense to them, but because they want to belong to the church that they might worship with them and not be ostracised, most will compromise their convictions and concede to peer pressure of the more experienced Christians, thereby departing from the truth.

.. so, can these ones be condemned for not having believed The Son? Only God knows! .. have they ever even heard the gospel as delivered by The Son? (eg: Matthew 10:40 vs Jeremiah 23:21).

Think on Joel 2:11-14 then, as it applies to life and death when one encounters the Word of truth.

Hmm...

I am not going to debate, because of your preface concerning the OP.

I would raise the question of how any of this weighs in a person's apprehension of having a child, and having that child miss out on Christ because s/he is an individual, and even perhaps because s/he has been terribly affected by a planet that was meant to be heaven trying to be hell.

Even for us who believe in Christ, it is ridiculously arduous for some of us to maintain all fruits of the spirit and preserve our relationship with God. It is possible our children may not share the same "strength," or luxury to acknowledge God despite the horrors of the world.
 
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