Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

dc87

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My first impression is that you seem to view eternity as having a concept of time that is detached from the physical realm. I guess we don't really need to get into a drawn-out conversation to agree on this issue right now. I did see this as being an assumption you have adopted that is not necessarily true, but having a critical impact upon your theological perspective of God - His reason for creating earthly life.

I just wonder, did you read that article I showed you in post #245? There was one really key paragraph there that I'd like to make sure you have noticed:

Our inherent free will does have some bearing upon the actual shape of history, that can not by logical constraint, be fully His own to control. This, also with the inherently limited nature of the human coupled with survival instinct, must have been the most fundamental temptation for the devil in the first place, to bet that he was able to succeed with an empire of deceit (John 8:44).

.. showing a perspective that the rebellion in heaven was due to a temptation great enough that the angels chose to oppose God's sovereignty, believing that they could succeed against Him. As I have known, this is always the context of the rebellion in heaven.

I would like to make sure we are on the same page, so I request that we introduce the scriptures in issue here. I am assuming that you are speaking about The Final Judgement as described in Matthew 25:31-46, where the sheep inherit everlasting life but the goats inherit destruction. If that is the scripture that you have in mind, would you mind reading it, quoting and explaining the parts that you think are not fair? .. Also, if there is any other scripture that you have in mind, please also bring them forward.

sadly, in the passage in Matthew Jesus seems to be saying (if u take it literally) that your salvation seems to be based on how you treat others. There are many hospitable people on this earth and not all may know Jesus. This is my confusion because most doctrines say that you must have a relationship with Jesus himself and acknowledge not outwardly but to yourself that He is Lord. This is difficult to do if

1. you do not see Him physically (i made a whole other post about this - Why do you believe in Jesus if you cannot see him?)

2. if you do not feel guilty enough to truly imminently need salvation
 
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Serving Zion

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sadly, in the passage in Matthew Jesus seems to be saying (if u take it literally) that your salvation seems to be based on how you treat others.
I rejoice over this! I think it is not sad at all, but very fair and just. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Also consider Matthew 8:10-12, Matthew 21:42-43, Matthew 5:20 and John 10:16.
There are many hospitable people on this earth and not all may know Jesus. This is my confusion because most doctrines say that you must have a relationship with Jesus himself and acknowledge not outwardly but to yourself that He is Lord. This is difficult to do if

1. you do not see Him physically (i made a whole other post about this - Why do you believe in Jesus if you cannot see him?)

2. if you do not feel guilty enough to truly imminently need salvation
I agree, this is probably the underlying reason - that you have believed a doctrine that you know does not fit your conscience, and it forces God to be less perfect than your expectation.

I would like to present to you Hebrews 9:27 and Romans 4:11-12. It is not so much whether we have believed what someone teaches us about the scriptures that counts at that time, but rather "sanctification" - do we face judgement with a good conscience? If we can not stand against the accusations, then we have guilt and are fit for condemnation in God's view. Therefore, it stands to reason that many people who have not known Jesus will still be of good conscience. Essentially, it is The Golden Rule that justifies us. Also consider Luke 12:47-48.

I wonder whether any scriptures come to mind for you that seem to speak against this view? Also, does this describe the sort of judge that you expect Jesus to be when He is seated on The Great White Throne?
 
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dc87

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Essentially, it is The Golden Rule that justifies us...

.... I wonder whether any scriptures come to mind for you that seem to speak against this view?

Are you serious? The Golden Rule justifies us?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 14:6-9
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

No.... sadly as i said before it is NOT apparently just how we treat others is what saves us.... otherwise the Bible would contradict itself. Apparently we must have a concrete RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. You must also change into a COMPLETELY different person unless 'born again' is not as significant as it sounds.
 
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Are you serious? The Golden Rule justifies us?
We need to go back to the question: who is accusing you, what are those charges, and do you have a valid defence? In this way, the answer has to be yes, that The Golden Rule justifies us (or more like it, justifies the accuser when we have transgressed). The accuser sure likes to accuse us of sin that is not sin, and it is our erroneous beliefs that give him that power. Not that those charges should stand on the day of judgment, but meanwhile it creates an unfair anxiety, that can lead to real sin (hence the need for an atoning sacrifice).

Check it for yourself:

Matthew 22:36-40
"Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".
John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Seeing the Kingdom of God and standing for judgement at The Great White Throne are not the same thing though:

Luke 17:20-21 shows that the Kingdom of God is here today, right amidst us. If we receive the gospel and become born-again, we come to perceive it and to know our place in it (Philippians 3:20, Acts 19:13-16, Matthew 6:19-21, Matthew 19:21).
John 14:6-9
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
:oldthumbsup: Right! But seeing as Jesus was here 2,000 years ago, how is it possible that we may come to know Him now? (Hint: John 13:20, John 13:35).
No.... sadly as i said before it is NOT apparently just how we treat others is what saves us.... otherwise the Bible would contradict itself. Apparently we must have a concrete RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. You must also change into a COMPLETELY different person unless 'born again' is not as significant as it sounds.
This is absolutely true, but what of those who have never heard the gospel - or worse still, have been wrongly turned against the gospel by false teachers who have mischaracterised God?

Who exactly is Jesus, to be worthy of all honour and power and praise? Does He who loves even sinners (John 15:13, Romans 5:8), send them away because they "missed out"? .. or, does He weigh the heart by judging in consideration to circumstances (culpability), proving whether they truly are fit to bless or curse? (John 10:16).
 
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dc87

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The accuser sure likes to accuse us of sin that is not sin, and it is our erroneous beliefs that give him that power. Not that those charges should stand on the day of judgment, but meanwhile it creates an unfair anxiety, that can lead to real sin (hence the need for an atoning sacrifice).

.....

insightful but will Jesus not judge? would He not accuse? you seem to say satan is the only accuser.... ?

Matthew 22:36-40
"Upon these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".

......

what does the word 'hang' here mean?

Seeing the Kingdom of God and standing for judgement at The Great White Throne are not the same thing though:

Luke 17:20-21 shows that the Kingdom of God is here today, right amidst us. If we receive the gospel and become born-again, we come to perceive it and to know our place in it.......

.... are you saying that when He said 'see the kingdom' He meant on this earth and not heaven? Are you saying you do not need to be born again to go to heaven?!

:oldthumbsup: Right! But seeing as Jesus was here 2,000 years ago, how is it possible that we may come to know Him now? (Hint: John 13:20, John 13:35).

This is absolutely true, but what of those who have never heard the gospel - or worse still, have been wrongly turned against the gospel by false teachers who have mischaracterised God?

Who exactly is Jesus, to be worthy of all honour and power and praise? Does He who loves even sinners (John 15:13, Romans 5:8), send them away because they "missed out"? .. or, does He weigh the heart by judging in consideration to circumstances (culpability), proving whether they truly are fit to bless or curse? (John 10:16).

i will wait for the reply to my last question before attempting to understand this...
 
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insightful but will Jesus not judge? would He not accuse? you seem to say satan is the only accuser.... ?
It can't be. Jesus Himself brings charges in Matthew 25:40 and Matthew 25:45. But not only Jesus, also those who have begrudged us, they hold resentment against us - who may they appeal to if we claim to represent the highest authority? When they bring charges, are they right to do so? Sometimes they are, but often they aren't. When someone holds a grudge wrongly, it is not love (love is not easily provoked and keeps no account of wrongs - 1 Corinthians 3:15). These days an increase of lawlessness caused the love of many to grow cold, so many inappropriate accusations are in the hearts of men. This is why I keep saying that it is about your own conscience - who do you know Jesus to be? Why do you feel condemned, and are you right to feel that way or have you believed a false accusation?
what does the word 'hang' here mean?
Strong's word definition for 2910: I hang, hang up, suspend; mid: I am hanging, hang.
Strong's Greek: 2910. κρεμάννυμι (kremannumi) -- to hang

Most translations seem to say "hang" or "depend", which gives an idea that all the rest of the law is an extrapolation of these two commandments, probably because love is foreign to so many people that the rulings in cases set a legal precedence, (setting an example, if you like), for how love is judged in those given situations.

As we see, however, any number of commandments cannot teach love, and St. Paul writes "I was alive once, apart from the law. But when the command came, sin came alive and I died." (ponder further with Isaiah 28:11-13 and Jeremiah 31:31-34).
.... are you saying that when He said 'see the kingdom' He meant on this earth and not heaven?
Yes, that is what He meant. The gospel that Jesus proclaimed is a gospel of the kingdom "let your kingdom come that your will is done on earth as in heaven". He said to Pontius Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world, for if it were, my servants would fight that I should not be delivered up to the Jews". In Matthew 16:24-28, He told that some were witnessing Him, who would not taste death before they saw Him coming in the kingdom.

His is a kingdom that never ends (Daniel 7:14, Hebrews 7:23-25). Notice that verse in Hebrews, how it fits with 1 Timothy 2:5 and 1 John 2:1 - Christianity is about bringing heaven to earth (Luke 9:23-27).
Are you saying you do not need to be born again to go to heaven?!
Just as St. Paul wrote "I was alive once apart from the law, but when the command came, sin came to life and I died" - so Jesus says "See that you do not despise any of these little ones, because the kingdom of God belongs to such as these".

.. So, why is it that a human who has been made in the image of God has to be born again in the first place? It is only because sin has taken hold of them. There is an age at which we begin to oppose inconvenient truths. Judgement, forgiveness, love and dominance are all central to this, which is why it is found that the letter of the law quickens while the spirit of the law gives life.
i will wait for the reply to my last question before attempting to understand this...
:oldthumbsup: Patience is one of the fruits of the spirit!
 
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dc87

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.... who do you know Jesus to be? Why do you feel condemned...

I feel condemned because I cannot defeat sin. And I don't think I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don't think I can know Jesus because I don't feel guilty enough to even need Him in the first place. I have been told that Jesus only appears to those in need. I don't think I am any different than anybody else (non believers). I DO see myself as very different from preachers, and therefore know that I am different from those who assert that they themselves are assured of heaven. 'Assured' being something else I've never had.

.. So, why is it that a human who has been made in the image of God has to be born again in the first place? It is only because sin has taken hold of them. There is an age at which we begin to oppose inconvenient truths. Judgement, forgiveness, love and dominance are all central to this, which is why it is found that the letter of the law quickens while the spirit of the law gives life.

Please expand on what you think it means to be born again and as to my question before, are you saying you do NOT need to be born again to go to heaven?
 
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cuja1

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I feel condemned because I cannot defeat sin. And I don't think I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don't think I can know Jesus because I don't feel guilty enough to even need Him in the first place. I have been told that Jesus only appears to those in need. I don't think I am any different than anybody else (non believers). I DO see myself as very different from preachers, and therefore know that I am different from those who assert that they themselves are assured of heaven. 'Assured' being something else I've never had.



Please expand on what you think it means to be born again and as to my question before, are you saying you do NOT need to be born again to go to heaven?
This is why I think it's important to ask God to make us into the person He wants us to be.

Anyone that's not in your situation probably can't appreciate the hopelessness that one feels. I feel like I am making some progress on some sins. One particular sin that I thought would be impossible to overcome. I'm still in the beginning stages of it but I'm hoping.

So, even though some seem to think it's a cop out, I think you should keep praying for victory over sin.
 
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I feel condemned because I cannot defeat sin.
Give it time. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. We who have received the gospel to salvation (perhaps you have not yet grasped it) - we are not without sin, siree. No, but we are without condemnation because we are doing what Jesus requires us to do. We are not using untruth to hide our wrongs, and we are implementing changes daily to always repent toward greater perfection. This is how we withstand the enemy's accusations, trampling snakes and scorpions, having power over the enemy and divine protection (Isaiah 54:17).
And I don't think I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I don't think I can know Jesus because I don't feel guilty enough to even need Him in the first place. I have been told that Jesus only appears to those in need. I don't think I am any different than anybody else (non believers). I DO see myself as very different from preachers, and therefore know that I am different from those who assert that they themselves are assured of heaven. 'Assured' being something else I've never had.
Jesus wants all of us to know Him, but when He reveals Himself to us, He is perfect light, and that convicts us because it reveals our imperfections (consider how they reacted to the light of The Holy Spirit in Stephen - Acts 7:54-60). This is why He veils His face toward us. As we repent, that is to overcome our adversary, then we come to recognise Him more because He is able to reveal Himself more fully without making us run for cover (notice Revelation 6:14-17).
Please expand on what you think it means to be born again and as to my question before, are you saying you do NOT need to be born again to go to heaven?
Consider John 3:16-21. Here we see that some people love to do what is right, and they come forward to fellowship with The Holy Spirit. Yet those who love to do wickedly, they are afraid to go near The Holy Spirit, because the truth will expose their behaviours in the presence of His judgement and they rather not receive conviction. Those ones love deceit because it is their security, but the ones who do what is right love truth because the truth sets them free.

In this way, we observe that children are innocent of all wrong to begin with. As they grow, they make moral mistakes and they receive judgement. If judgement is rendered against their understanding, they resent the judgement. If that judge is right, they have chosen to oppose righteousness and they are not remaining in Christ.

Here's a cute example: a 3 year old child walking past as we were cutting down a tree last year, he picked up one of our pieces of wood and was going to take it home :D - "Hey!" snapped the tree owner. "Put that back! That's not yours!" his Mum said. The poor kid, he dropped it, having a worried look on his face "I'm in trouble???". I was just grinning at him because I knew that he knew no wrong. That was a bit helpful I think, else what kind of world have we made for him? So from now on, he's aware of a concept of ownership, and he will respect other people's wood. Anyhow, maybe one day he will find that if he takes the wood when nobody is looking, he chooses to do that and becomes someone who is no longer doing what he knows he should do. He is doing sin, because he has taken advantage of the control of knowledge in order to do what God has taught him to not do. This not only has an impact on the owner of the wood, but it has robbed him of his good conscience - now he is always denying the truth when The Holy Spirit reminds him of that sin.

The age of accountability therefore is associated with education - as St. Paul wrote: when the command came, he died; because without the command, he is innocent of sin by taking the wood. If any person should punish him for an innocent mistake, they are wrong to do so. But after he has learned morality, then he is culpable for sin.

I'll also tell you as it pertains to The Kingdom of God (1 Peter 4:17, Matthew 5:20), that if a person who is using the name of God does not stick to the truth and repent upon conviction, they are no longer remaining in Christ. They are like a branch that withers (John 15:6). This is our responsibility to each other and to the world at large.

Therefore, many Christians have departed from living of free conscience according to the truth, refusing to repent at The Holy Spirit's Word and they do need to be born again otherwise they will be destroyed (Isaiah 28:14-15). They are opposing God by refusing to recognise and obey Him (2 Peter 2:1 "They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.").
 
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dc87

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...There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ......

.... Yet those who love to do wickedly, they are afraid to go near The Holy Spirit, because the truth will expose their behaviours in the presence of His judgement and they rather not receive conviction......

Therefore, many Christians have departed from living of free conscience according to the truth, refusing to repent at The Holy Spirit's Word and they do need to be born again otherwise they will be destroyed (Isaiah 28:14-15). They are opposing God by refusing to recognise and obey Him (2 Peter 2:1 "They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.").

How does one know they are in Christ and why does God condemn those regardless (as to the OP)?

... All sinners love to do 'wickedly' otherwise non would sin... not understanding this....

So I take this to mean.... that those who you say are 'born again' are those who love to do right. I wish that were me.... but I struggle everyday to do right and its not that easy and obviously I don't love it because then it would be easy.... therefore according to that logic I would not be born again and also most others would not be....

By that logic - if sin comes easy to you.... then you are not born again. Well it seems to me that anyone living on earth would enjoy sin regardless of their stance with Jesus. I have yet to meet anyone who contradicts that.
 
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Serving Zion

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How does one know they are in Christ
John 15:3 shows that Jesus had spoken to His disciples such that they had become cleansed. It is through receiving The Word of truth to cleanse a corrupted pattern of thought, that we come out of the darkness and into the light.
and why does God condemn those regardless (as to the OP)?
There are two types of seekers who pursue Christian knowledge: those who are sincerely seeking, confused, and really need answers; but others are only looking to find justification for their disbelief. They are seeking relief from condemnation by showing that nobody can prove their error (they use deceit to achieve this).

I have noticed that you are not holding back with the questions that are leading you toward a change of heart, so it indicates that something within you actually is not afraid to stand before God and fully disclose who you are (that is a circumcised heart :oldthumbsup:). There are others though who do not cooperate with my questions. They really do not want to go to that point of repentance for reconciliation with God.
... All sinners love to do 'wickedly' otherwise non would sin... not understanding this....
Not by nature though. Jesus explains in John 8:31-36 that when we become slaves to sin, we are in bondage. When we abide in His Word, we learn the truth that sets us free from that bondage. This life of knowing the truth is obedience to The Holy Spirit (The Spirit of Truth). Conversely, the life of bondage to sin is to deny The Holy Spirit and to believe falsehood, an unholy spirit.

Yet even among those who are slaves to sin, some of them simply have been raised by a poor Christian education (I was one of them) and misled to believe that the sin is unreasonable. For this reason, they have chosen to be a sinner and have disregarded The Holy Spirit's conviction because they did not understand why that particular sin was sinful. But crucially, they do not believe that they should be condemned because of it, so they do not believe that The Holy Spirit really is God. They choose to believe a counterfeit spirit because that spirit does not contradict their moral understanding.

As a sheep that has gone wandering (Luke 15:4), God then goes after them, to find them and bring them toward His light, that they can learn why He requires their repentance. Those ones are coming toward the light so that it can be made evident that their deeds are done well, and as such, when the light reveals their error, they don't run from the truth but they repent.
So I take this to mean.... that those who you say are 'born again' are those who love to do right. I wish that were me.... but I struggle everyday to do right and its not that easy and obviously I don't love it because then it would be easy.... therefore according to that logic I would not be born again and also most others would not be....

By that logic - if sin comes easy to you.... then you are not born again. Well it seems to me that anyone living on earth would enjoy sin regardless of their stance with Jesus. I have yet to meet anyone who contradicts that.
Hmmm, no but rather being born again means to have fellowship with God, being free from all condemnation because we know Him personally to acquit or convict, to train us and to lead us (1 John 2:27), and that if we do sin, then because we confess it and turn from it, He is faithful (and just) to forgive us our sin, and to "cleanse us from unrighteousness" (a remission of the sin).

You are right, that very few Christians remain in Him to achieve this (Matthew 10:16), yet they are saints because that is their calling.
 
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dc87

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Sorry for delay.

John 15:3 shows that Jesus had spoken to His disciples such that they had become cleansed. It is through receiving The Word of truth to cleanse a corrupted pattern of thought, that we come out of the darkness and into the light.

This doesn't explain the factual knowledge or rather sensual knowledge of a security and identification with Jesus.

There are two types of seekers who pursue Christian knowledge: those who are sincerely seeking, confused, and really need answers; but others are only looking to find justification for their disbelief. They are seeking relief from condemnation by showing that nobody can prove their error (they use deceit to achieve this).

Guilty of both. In my younger days especially guilty of the latter especially with sexual issues. But concerning this post I believe blindly that I am sincere in my OP as why God would condemn someone who was placed into a situation (life on earth) rather than willfully enter it.

Not by nature though. Jesus explains in John 8:31-36 that when we become slaves to sin, we are in bondage.

then what of the term "sinful nature"?

Yet even among those who are slaves to sin, some of them simply have been raised by a poor Christian education (I was one of them) and misled to believe that the sin is unreasonable. For this reason, they have chosen to be a sinner and have disregarded The Holy Spirit's conviction because they did not understand why that particular sin was sinful. But crucially, they do not believe that they should be condemned because of it, so they do not believe that The Holy Spirit really is God. They choose to believe a counterfeit spirit because that spirit does not contradict their moral understanding.

I've been in this situation but I don't think I was denying the existence of God/Holy Spirit... I was rather saying to Him.... why is it sinful if you forced this ingrained need into my being? Its like trying to explain to a dog why it is sinful to chew a bone - its ingrained in their being. The same way trying to explain to a human why its sinful to fulfill sexual desires outside of marriage... makes no sense as to why we would have been given a function that can only be fulfilled conditionally (and when I say conditionally I mean very very very conditionally).

As a sheep that has gone wandering (Luke 15:4), God then goes after them, to find them and bring them toward His light, that they can learn why He requires their repentance...

Many a time it feels like the other way around.

You are right, that very few Christians remain in Him to achieve this (Matthew 10:16), yet they are saints because that is their calling.

???
 
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This doesn't explain the factual knowledge or rather sensual knowledge of a security and identification with Jesus.
If you have it, you have it. If you don't, you don't. It is quite obvious whether we have it or not when we are in the presence of someone who does (John 3:36).
Guilty of both.
Sure. I think that anger, resentment, bitterness contribute toward someone who is venting a frustration veiled as an inquiry; whereas a brokenness, desperation produces a contrition and humbleness, facilitating us to receive the wisdom that can liberate us. Seekers can cycle through stages of contrition before they come to a final realisation and salvation. It is all part of the struggle.
In my younger days especially guilty of the latter especially with sexual issues. But concerning this post I believe blindly that I am sincere in my OP as why God would condemn someone who was placed into a situation (life on earth) rather than willfully enter it.
It is good of you to question such injustice at the highest levels of authority. That doesn't happen enough (Psalms 12:8, NASB).
then what of the term "sinful nature"?
Can you show the scripture you are referring to, for context?
I've been in this situation but I don't think I was denying the existence of God/Holy Spirit... I was rather saying to Him.... why is it sinful if you forced this ingrained need into my being? Its like trying to explain to a dog why it is sinful to chew a bone - its ingrained in their being. The same way trying to explain to a human why its sinful to fulfill sexual desires outside of marriage... makes no sense as to why we would have been given a function that can only be fulfilled conditionally (and when I say conditionally I mean very very very conditionally).
Well, it's not really a fair comparison, because sexual immorality really does have a destructive impact in the world. If it is true that you actually did seek to understand this and that He failed to provide it, then it would seem quite likely that The Holy Spirit was probably frustrated by the poor representation of morality in those whom you trusted. Not every Christian is equally functional for His purpose. This is a real problem for Him, you know. His effectiveness to communicate depends hugely upon the accuracy of the vessel's beliefs (determining whether our words are truthful), and sanctification (so that our own sinfulness does not weaken His power to convict).

I am sorry that fit Christians are few and far between, we really do need more of these fit workers in the field.
Many a time it feels like the other way around.
Sorry for that, I am really trying hard, and I am only doing the best that I can. But you have been doing well too! We have lost some quite valuable momentum though..
 
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dc87

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If you have it, you have it. If you don't, you don't. It is quite obvious whether we have it or not when we are in the presence of someone who does (John 3:36).

Hmmm... I've seen many sides of these people who seem to be joyous one day and then like everyone else the next... I too am able to act the same. What defining characteristics should we be taking note of and are they present ALL the time?

It is good of you to question such injustice at the highest levels of authority. That doesn't happen enough (Psalms 12:8, NASB).

If it is wrong to do so then dont answer.

Can you show the scripture you are referring to, for context?

I speak of the flesh...

27 Bible verses about The Sin Nature

Sorry for that, I am really trying hard, and I am only doing the best that I can. But you have been doing
well too! We have lost some quite valuable momentum though..

I will glady speak of my own issues... but now I would like to do justice to the original topic itself as my personal issues would take up an entirely different thread.
 
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Serving Zion

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What defining characteristics should we be taking note of and are they present ALL the time?
You know, maybe you aren't seeing this, but in the space of that week while you were away your attitude was reversed.

Although, I did attempt in #293 to resurrect you toward a fruitful discussion, in #294 you have demonstrated a will to be uncooperative.

This is now not a constructive conversation where you are pursuing the knowledge that is in Christ, but an argument. I have no interest in any argument.

Remember this though: that I do care about you and I am willing to continue with a fruitful discussion, if you find a change of heart and wish to keep uncovering the knowledge pertaining to your findings.

I hope you will find what it is that you need, so you can have peace in these matters, and I thank you for what we have managed to establish together already.
 
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You know, maybe you aren't seeing this, but in the space of that week while you were away your attitude was reversed.

Mhm. Indeed, I think I will post a different thread one day to continue the conversation about my personal issues...

However the OP addresses the problem and question of the accountability of existence, to which I have found no answer here other than the two possibilities listed in this post...

Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be born? #145

This is a MAJOR question as the answer to it addresses a deep underlying issue which I and most likely MANY other people can identify with... and that is the fact of not feeling guilty for the way we pass an unchosen existence. Therefore dwelling on my personal issues I did not see as benefitial to anyone reading this thread based on the OP.

I WILL however start a thread on some personal issues but right now this is my largest spiritual hurdle.
 
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Serving Zion

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Mhm. Indeed, I think I will post a different thread one day to continue the conversation about my personal issues...

However the OP addresses the problem and question of the accountability of existence, to which I have found no answer here other than the two possibilities listed in this post...

Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be born? #145

This is a MAJOR question as the answer to it addresses a deep underlying issue which I and most likely MANY other people can identify with... and that is the fact of not feeling guilty for the way we pass an unchosen existence. Therefore dwelling on my personal issues I did not see as benefitial to anyone reading this thread based on the OP.

I WILL however start a thread on some personal issues but right now this is my largest spiritual hurdle.
We have already covered this though, and you were following me with a keen interest toward finding an understanding, until about a week ago. Now you have returned to square one and discarded all that we had established together. Do you remember what particular trauma happened during the week that gave rise to this change?
 
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Chriliman

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I would gladly spend all of eternity trying to teach my boy to change his ways. My Father in heaven apparently will not.

How do you know God will not change your ways? Similar to how a good father who disciplines his children, changes there ways for better through what he teaches them.
 
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Chriliman

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Mhm. Indeed, I think I will post a different thread one day to continue the conversation about my personal issues...

However the OP addresses the problem and question of the accountability of existence, to which I have found no answer here other than the two possibilities listed in this post...

Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be born? #145

This is a MAJOR question as the answer to it addresses a deep underlying issue which I and most likely MANY other people can identify with... and that is the fact of not feeling guilty for the way we pass an unchosen existence. Therefore dwelling on my personal issues I did not see as benefitial to anyone reading this thread based on the OP.

I WILL however start a thread on some personal issues but right now this is my largest spiritual hurdle.

Have you considered that when someone is born again, they've actually asked for it to happen? Indeed, when I was born again, I didn't really know what was happening, but I do remember earnestly asking for Jesus to save me because I needed to be saved from the guilt and shame.

You're right, no one will desire God's love if they have no reason to, which is why God gives reasons, which include loving rebukes and loving kindness and forgiveness.
 
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We have already covered this though, and you were following me with a keen interest toward finding an understanding, until about a week ago. Now you have returned to square one and discarded all that we had established together. Do you remember what particular trauma happened during the week that gave rise to this change?
?

I'm sorry but I do not see where you are discussing the reason for accountability. I see where you are discussing the reason for why we are judged but not why we are even in the courtroom in the first place.

And no... nothing has occurred thats affected me.
 
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