Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

[W2L]

I have had a tough life, which is my fault, i made bad choices. However i could still be angry at God but im grateful instead. Im glad to be alive. What a gift it is when you think about it. Thank you OP for asking that question. It was like a spark that lit a fire of revelation inside. That revelation is that i live! Praise the Lord i have hope too.

 

[Galatea]

This is still a conditional statement for which I, personally, am not willing to thrust upon my children.

They CAN also be spiritual derelicts despite my instruction.



That is a human romanticism of the relationship between God and humans. "It is better to love and lost the to never loved at all" is a way humans try to rationalise fantastical circumstance. You cannot confirm that is better to be alive than not exist at all.



Nope, but I know my hypothetical children will be born "sons and daughters of man," and that is a curse. So, I am not going to bound my children to the curse of being born sons of daughters of men.





Ok, so? The issue of choice of being is still existent - as well as the implications.



Hope... is one of the most devestating human romanticism ever thought of.

Even in human 'lore, people still don't realize how incredibly incredibly dangerous it was that Pandora let it escape - closing the box too late.

It is a falsehood, just as evil as everything else that came out of that box - except if it is in the Most High God.

This is a very sad outlook on life, in my opinion.

Yes, I do believe that Heaven will be so extraordinarily wonderful that it is much better to have lived and go to Heaven than to be nonexistent.

It's a gamble, because your children may not get saved- but it is a gamble most people are willing to take. The potential blessing outweighs the potential risks.

Timothy knew the Scriptures as a child and was so close to Paul, that he called Timothy his "son after the faith". I think his mother and grandmother were glad Timothy existed.

 

[chriscomplex]

No, I am in a bad habit of derailing threads as it is.

I mean open a new thread.

 

[Galatea]

I mean open a new thread.

I don't really relish the idea of arguing once saved always saved with people who believe you can lose salvation. It isn't profitable. No one is convinced of the other's position and it just gets people riled up.

 

[W2L]

I don't really relish the idea of arguing once saved always saved with people who believe you can lose salvation. It isn't profitable. No one is convinced of the other's position and it just gets people riled up.

I dont get the debate about salvation. For me the Lord saves me everr day, as i thirst for God he refreshes my soul. I dont worry about salvation because i follow the Lord.

 

[Galatea]

I dont get the debate about salvation. For me the Lord saves me everr day, as i thirst for God he refreshes my soul. I dont worry about salvation because i follow the Lord.

I suppose it is a question of assurance. We OSAS believers are into assurance- God has saved me, God does save me, God will save me.

Our brothers who do not hold to OSAS think we are being presumptuous, we think they are not accessing God's grace and trying to be legalistic.

The thing is, we CAN fellowship around the person of Christ and the fact that He saves us by His grace. We just argue about the keeping part.

 

[chriscomplex]

I suppose it is a question of assurance. We OSAS believers are into assurance- God has saved me, God does save me, God will save me.

Our brothers who do not hold to OSAS think we are being presumptuous, we think they are not accessing God's grace and trying to be legalistic.

The thing is, we CAN fellowship around the person of Christ and the fact that He saves us by His grace. We just argue about the keeping part.

Galatea,

Do you know you are saved as a factual thing, or do you just really really believe?

 

[W2L]

I suppose it is a question of assurance. We OSAS believers are into assurance- God has saved me, God does save me, God will save me.

Our brothers who do not hold to OSAS think we are being presumptuous, we think they are not accessing God's grace and trying to be legalistic.

The thing is, we CAN fellowship around the person of Christ and the fact that He saves us by His grace. We just argue about the keeping part.

I understand, thank you. There was a time that i did worry about salvation. I suppose i should remember that. I struggled with understanding salvation and the law. The Lord finally brought me through that, and other things.

 

[Widlast]

Wait a minute...

We just got through talking about how many people are pained asking this exact question - precisely because they had no choice. And, then some of these same people were told that, "you are here, you are now, you live, get over it and make a choice."

Perfectly fine.

However, I think it is asinine NOT to thoroughly think about the implications LIFE would have on your own offspring - including afterlife considerations respective to your beliefs. I would say it is PRUDENT to think about the wellbeing of your future child, and to at least have a plan about how to approach and cultivate your child's best chances for a life and afterlife before having them. Others take it a step further by asking, " Why do I want a child in THIS time, knowing THESE things about life and the afterlife: would my child want to be born into "this?" Would my child be able to stay strong and resist the powerful evil in the world - destroying his or her chances of being with the Creator?

Each and every single one of you in this mindset makes the completely unsupportable assumption that God just tosses you into reality to handle it on your own. That is NOWHERE close to the truth. If you are on your own IT IS NOBDODYS FAULT BUT YOURS. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened, anyone who asks help from God gets help.

Parenting is more than having children because the activity feels good, and then dealing with existential philosophy from the consequences of the birth of your child, and from what they bring up, on the fly as you parent.

That is reckless, and one of the reasons why people are highly confused about the purpose of their genesis - especially given the circumstances of this planet in the last 1500 years, frankly.

Really? What was that? These "people" need to "grow up".

It isn't like they believe their child would save the world (like the Hebrews throuth prophecy,) or at least shouldnt; someone has already saved the world. So, the idea that we are having children for a better tomorrow - like we are biological factories of reproduction producing more bodies for the betterment of the STATE - is the real ludicrous situation. I would like to think most people fully think about these physical, metaphysical and spiritual implications of having a child; not that we breed them, and then tell them to toughen up and deal with life. Then, there IS some responsibility that falls on the parent.

And that has what to do with anything?

Bull.

Bull back at you.

I won't have children specifiAly because of social, cultural, ethnic and spiritual reasons. People actually think about the implications of procreation for long periods of time before making the decision to have a child. Of course people are selfish, emotionally unstable, or downright sterile; those are facts of life (part of the facts of life some of us think about before breeding,) so it is very easy to give the list you gave.

If YOU have a REAL VALID reason that does not fall under the three I listed please enlighten us.

But, it is by no measure the exhaustive list of reasons why people choose not to have children - and, they aren't even in the top 30 reasons.

You could have said peoe choose not to have children out of fear (of murderers, rapists, pathological liars, abusers, racists, bigots, nukes, etc.) and you would have been less insulting, and closer to an actual "Top 15" list of reasons.

It is good you never had this existential dillema, however it makes you ignorant if the side of the argument that makes a well-reasoned argument for not having children - even those who question why persons continue to breed seemingly without thought further than what a five year plan demands.

The last reasons you mentioned fall under "emotionally unstable".

 

[Galatea]

Galatea,

Do you know you are saved as a factual thing, or do you just really really believe?

I know I am, without a doubt. That sounds proud, perhaps.

For I KNOW whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

The whole book of I John was written to assure us of our salvation.

I John 5:12-13 "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

First, I believed, then I knew.

 

[chriscomplex]

I know I am, without a doubt. That sounds proud, perhaps.

For I KNOW whom I have believed and am persuaded He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

The whole book of I John was written to assure us of our salvation.

I John 5:12-13 "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

First, I believed, then I knew.

So you don't believe in God anymore, you know God. Do you still need faith since you are knowing about God?

 

[Galatea]

So you don't believe in God anymore, you know God. Do you still need faith since you are knowing about God?

Well, do you know people and still believe in them and have faith in them?

I do not know if you are married, but one would hope you know your wife and believe in her and have faith in her.

I know my mother, and I believe and have faith that her love for me is unconditional and eternal.

 

[chriscomplex]

Well, do you know people and still believe in them and have faith in them?

I do not know if you are married, but one would hope you know your wife and believe in her and have faith in her.

I know my mother, and I believe and have faith that her love for me is unconditional and eternal.

I see what you are saying, yes what you say is coherent and sensible. I like your ideas, do you have a magazine I can subscribe too

 

[Galatea]

I see what you are saying, yes what you say is coherent and sensible. I like your ideas, do you have a magazine I can subscribe too

Thank you, no I don't have a magazine or blog. I guess I could start a blog and ramble away.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Each and every single one of you in this mindset makes the completely unsupportable assumption that God just tosses you into reality to handle it on your own. That is NOWHERE close to the truth. If you are on your own IT IS NOBDODYS FAULT BUT YOURS. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened, anyone who asks help from God gets help.

Really? What was that? These "people" need to "grow up".

And that has what to do with anything?



Bull back at you.

If YOU have a REAL VALID reason that does not fall under the three I listed please enlighten us.

The last reasons you mentioned fall under "emotionally unstable".

Wow.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

This is a very sad outlook on life, in my opinion.

Yes, I do believe that Heaven will be so extraordinarily wonderful that it is much better to have lived and go to Heaven than to be nonexistent.

It's a gamble, because your children may not get saved- but it is a gamble most people are willing to take. The potential blessing outweighs the potential risks.

Timothy knew the Scriptures as a child and was so close to Paul, that he called Timothy his "son after the faith". I think his mother and grandmother were glad Timothy existed.

It is a gamble most people are willing to take because they are not the offspring produced.

But I think I just got a good dose of confirmation based on many of the responses on this thread and another one.

It isn't sad at all; this world lies to itsfind about its "goodness." My kids are fine where they are; in fact now I have more reason to my own rhyme.

I actually appreciate this because I came into this OP uncertain about a few things. But, not now.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Each and every single one of you in this mindset makes the completely unsupportable assumption that God just tosses you into reality to handle it on your own. That is NOWHERE close to the truth. If you are on your own IT IS NOBDODYS FAULT BUT YOURS. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened, anyone who asks help from God gets help.

Really? What was that? These "people" need to "grow up".

And that has what to do with anything?



Bull back at you.

If YOU have a REAL VALID reason that does not fall under the three I listed please enlighten us.

The last reasons you mentioned fall under "emotionally unstable".

You must have children, and/or I [continue] to touch a nerve. You keep missing the point that the focus is about children NOT born, who are eventually existent - not those of us who already exist. I even said myself that I am perfectly find being 'here, and getting used to it.'

That is another reason why I choose not to procreate to being a child in this world; there are a bunch of emotional people acting as if they aren't emotionally thinking at all - which leads to a lot of the problems we never learn from.

As you asked, despite doing it before in great detail, I gave you (another reason other than your tertiary list.)

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Each and every single one of you in this mindset makes the completely unsupportable assumption that God just tosses you into reality to handle it on your own. That is NOWHERE close to the truth. If you are on your own IT IS NOBDODYS FAULT BUT YOURS. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened, anyone who asks help from God gets help.

Really? What was that? These "people" need to "grow up".

And that has what to do with anything?



Bull back at you.

If YOU have a REAL VALID reason that does not fall under the three I listed please enlighten us.

The last reasons you mentioned fall under "emotionally unstable".

And, you call ME emotionally unstable, but I bet you are the one who reports me to substantiate your rant that misses most every point.

Are you regretful that someone would have the audacity to challenge your reasoning for procrearing? Nah, you don't have regrets


You leave them for your kids.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

This is a very sad outlook on life, in my opinion.

Yes, I do believe that Heaven will be so extraordinarily wonderful that it is much better to have lived and go to Heaven than to be nonexistent.

It's a gamble, because your children may not get saved- but it is a gamble most people are willing to take. The potential blessing outweighs the potential risks.

Timothy knew the Scriptures as a child and was so close to Paul, that he called Timothy his "son after the faith". I think his mother and grandmother were glad Timothy existed.

You can be as ecstatic as you like having a child, or a surrogate. That doesn't mean any of the questions raised are considered.

Again, feelings and romanticism are how demons, for example, exploit human condition. Just look at what happened to Moshe; he lost out on the Promised Land For emotional thinking.

And, all of this still doesn't answer the reality of having chden in a world that is hellacious at best. You really think this planet is an environment suitable to thrust your offspring into - especially given the CURSE we live under?

Why are we thinking with feelings instead of reason when it comes to children? When did the paradigm shift so much that people become offended by someone who challenges the idea of blind and rose-tinted procreation?

And, did HOPE not come out of Pandora's box of evils? Humans romanticize hope so much, we forget how to apply it properly, and that it came out of a bin of horrors by the logic of our own mythos that created it.

 

[Serving Zion]

I love the car analogy which seems perfect. And to that I ask whos decision it was to put me in that car? Mine? Hmm that means I chose to come into this world. His? ok then did He ask me if I feel capable of driving the car. If not then why am I blamed if I reck it if i was forced into the drivers seat?

It was neither He nor you who decided to give you life, but it was your parents' decisions that led to your birth. BTW, life is meant to be a blessing .. something to be grateful for!

And to answer your question... I dont think it would matter if I think He is a trustworthy judge or not. Hes still the judge and im trying to find the reasoning behind judging me in the first place.

If anyone brings a charge against you that you do not accept, then a judge needs to rule.

This is why I asked first of all, who is bringing the charges against you? Why do you not have confidence to be found innocent to those charges?

If you cannot answer those two questions, then we have revealed a false premise in your doctrine. It is in your interests to not dodge that situation, because we really can solve the problem here if we are both willing to be honest.