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Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by dc87, May 17, 2017.

  1. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness Supporter

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    I am trying to break through this view of God that you have. The way that you are imagining His character does not correctly portray His innate qualities of love, justice, mercy, fatherly-ness etc.

    I am trying to show you that He really is good and holy with a righteous reason to judge, so that you will not need to keep seeing Him as being unreasonable to do so (eg: judging you for something that actually does no harm is unreasonable).

    God is the one who personally goes to the greatest possible extent (Mark 15:19) to defend you against the injustice of a malicious and cruel accuser that hates the truth, but who loves to trick you and destroy you and prevent you from really having the fullness of love for God and for life that God wants you to have (John 10:10).

    But, I can only lead you to an accurate knowledge of who He is, if you will cooperate with me.

    I think that if you can get across this hurdle, probably we will see quite an important breakthrough.. but, it's up to you. You need to decide whether you want to go there. I can see that you are carrying a very heavy burden, a tragedy that I have never had to cope with, and in a way it is working against you because your grief is somewhat displaced by anger when you are able to blame God.

    So I am still looking to establish why it is a bad thing to get angry with God when the lawnmower struck the stones (ie: what harm did it cause that needs to be accounted for? - did the anger persist through the day and impact someone who wasn't able to absorb it?).

    .. and now that you have mentioned it, I'd also like to unpack why you believe God is expecting that we should ever be able to pay for our sins. Doesn't this seem to contradict the description of love when you read it? (Love is patient, love is kind, it does not seek its own way, it keeps no account of wrong, it does not rejoice over injustice but rejoices in the truth; - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7).
     
  2. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    We are trying to determine what the "reason" is here. And yes because of this lack of knowledge I doubt, as did Adam and many many before me. I also suffer from lack of guilt. I also miss my son and forever will but sometimes I gather that it may be better that he did not live long enough to see accountability as we have. These three things hinder me and it all stems from the root question of why are we accountable at all for a life not chosen.

    What we understand to be love and justice cannot be enacted simultaneously (and i stress that word).
    They actually oppose themselves when it comes to keeping account of wrong doing (whatever that may be defined to be). Many things have been written on the matter. God is Love yes... He is also Just... in the same way that when we get in a auto wreck we are judged, and then AFTER we are judged by the police (the Father), then the solutions are discussed - does your insurance cover it or not (do you know Jesus or not?).... either way we ARE judged.
     
  3. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Man always thinks he knows what's fair and God knows that He is God.
    M-Bob
     
  4. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    Fair enough. This is what I had suspected... that we may never know on this earth by what standard of righteousness and fairness God judges us, other than the standard of God himself.

    I made this thread/post mainly to see if anyone had sought the answer and found it.

    It seems that the Mormons and Calvinists have guessed the reason, and that everyone else seems to think the reason is pointless to know. Fair enough. Thanks for all those who lent their thoughts!
     
  5. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    The accountability we mean above is certainly our accountability to eternal life later, and certainly not accountability when we live physically in this temporary world.

    What we need to know first is our identity;

    1 Who are we?

    2 Why can we get to the life of the eternal world ?, can the animal also get there?

    3 If we are different from animals, because we are Spiritual being (there is definitely spirit within each of us ) - and animals are not, we are originally from the eternal realm before we arrive at this temporal realm, is it true?

    4 Then what kind of state did we have before, and why should we wander / sojourn in this temporary nature/perishable realm (what is the advantage ,or loss if not wander) ?.

    If we understand and can answer the questions mentioned above then we will be able to answer the question on the thread above.

    Answer;

    1 We are God's creation, which He desires to be with, to glorify Him.

    Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


    2 Even though we live in the temporal realm, where animals also exist, but in our body there is a spiritual being on our behalf who has been sent by God to exist on our body since we are physically born from the womb of our physical mother while the animal is not.

    Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    Isa44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


    Ecc12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



    3 Yes.

    We had been with God, before this perishable world was formed.

    Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



    Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.



    4 Before we were sent by Him into this perishable realm, we (men’s spirit) were already with Him, and our names were already written too in the book of life, our state at that time was zero state (have no knowledge, have no ability), at that time God also had already had His servants faithful angels, also there were angels who rebel against Him they were demons/devils, faithful angels and demons (spirits) they were all in full state (full of knowledge ,full of abilities), We conclude like this because when Adam and Eve were created they were utterly have no knowledge even to distinguish between good and evil they were not capable, but not for His faithful angels and demons, They were full of abilities and knowledge.

    If we did not prior sojourn/wander physically in this perishable realm/, then for eternity we are like nothing because there is nothing we can play like a vacuum void space , and by being created that is the only way in which we the zero state can experience a good growth in Knowledge and ability in this temporal nature cause this is the only media that gives the possibility of growth (eternal nature no growth), if here we can see that it is the advantage and also the loss if not created then at least we have stepped forward in the introduction about Who we are and who God is and what His plan is.

    Furthermore we may also think why should start with the zero-state man ?, can not it be started through the faithful angel equipped with an eternal body, is not there certainly no sin, and more simply, no need for redeemer, savior and so on?

    But unfortunately the outcome will not meet His Goal "glorify God" here is a brief overview of this scenario;

    God's plan for man that He will create for His glory is: Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, ......., Noah, ......, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, ......, last name in the book of life.


    Possibility:

    1. All of them were created together, and placed in Eden ,there was no devil , there was no forbidden fruit.

    Surely in this option they would live forever in peace .

    millions years later, they are asked: "why can you live in Eden peacefully, not like the devil and his allies that were thrown into eternal fire?"

    Answer: "Yes of course, we are indeed glorious creatures who are created in the image of God".

    Question: does the answer bring glory to God ?.


    2 God created His people at once, There was the forbidden tree where the fruit not allowed to be eaten, there was no devil ( His people already in full state/ there was nothing to do with the devil), millions years later God came to them and judged , all the rebels died in that time, now the rest only the obedient ones , then they are asked : How can you live in a glory not like them who were thrown to the lof ? (when God created Human from His faithful angels with the eternal bodies the out come surely same ) they answer “ surely, we are all more obedient than them”, does their answer bring glory to God?.


    3 God creates as written in the bible (zero state), then the winners (Rev3:5) / the saveds are asked in NHNE : How can you live in a glory with God , not like the devils and the losers who were thrown to the lof , they answer” actually there is nothing more within us than they are ,if they were thrown to the lof , we shall be thrown too ( Isa64:6, Isa26:12, rev19:8 ), but if now we live in this eternal land peacefully that all comes from His Glory only”, does their answer bring glory to God?.


    So the answer to the question on this thread is: Due to the lack of understanding about: who are we ?, who is God ?, why does God create us and for what?
     
  6. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    18 pages and we finally have another who has addressed and understood the original question. i am grateful.

    so... these spirits of us you speak of? are they the same spirits that you believe were present before we were born that lacked knowledge and ability to understand?

    We had been, as you say, with God albeit with no knowledge or ability correct?

    .... and what pray tell, was the unsaved spirits situations/status at this time?

    ... This is one of deepest things ive read in a long time. This is new and I have a million questions here... And it is here where I think you attempt at answering the question of why we are accountable. I couldnt follow last part though? Could you reword it?

    During this zero state you are saying we are not knowledgable or able to do anything... therefore you are saying we have no conciousness and no awareness?? If so this doesnt answer the question, because we still do not have any choice in what we are getting ready to be placed into (the perishable realm) and therefore we are forced into it and therefore we are forced into whatever may happen as a result of it, good or bad.

    However, you seem to be saying that we are like a clear cup of water that has yet to have a litmus test done on it and therefore although it exists, God does not "know" or has not proven of what nature the water is. But I do not know how we are expected to "grow" in this temporal perishable realm when the nature of the realm itself is to hinder us from growth... its like planting a flower in a cave.

    Idk... the devil was an angel. Why cant Jesus just save the fully knowledgable fallen angels instead of us and therefore glorify himself that way? why us? what point is there in US that the angels could not fulfill? what makes us so special that God chooses to save us to glorify himself rather than the angels?

    Idk... are you saying the devil is the source of all sin? Are you saying we would never consider eating of the fruit without the devil and that we would never tempt ourselves? Why did the devil sin and what was his original sin? and who tempted him?

    How does not fully knowledgable angels who chose to obey God NOT glorify Him?

    You seem to be justifying sin as a requirement for God to show His glory.
     
  7. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    Respectively spirit or us ; for instant in it turn when God wanted to send Abel (spiritually being/ spirit without body /spirit who was named Abel and also had been written in His book of life before the creation of the world ) to wander to this perishable earth then God send this spirit to abide within a baby which was born through the womb of Eve ( see Yer1:5 similar) .
    ( I apologize of my lack in English ).



    Yes.




    I don’t know what you mean.


    Explanation:
    (1)The creation actually is the greates opportunity we ever have, zero state = vacuum/void , when in the process some one failed (failed in purification process which is parebled as 40 years in the desert ) then surely he loss the greatest advantage be come nothing ( as the origin).

    (2)How can zero state have a choice ?, he run follow the body's will/ negative will (Rom3;10-12).
    Rom8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    Rom3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one







    I said before:

    (when God created Human from His faithful angels with the eternal bodies the out come surely same ) they answer “ surely, we are all more obedient than them”, does their answer bring glory to God?.

    The angels had worthies works compared to the devils (the rebels).
    Then all they had surely deserve to them, as wages not as a grace.
    All the saveds/ the winners said that salvation = by God’s Grace alone
    (finally the winners /spirits which is success in purification process surely as smart as the angels, as capable as the angels , but the way they achieve those state is started from zero state ).


    Yes, yes.
    Zero state only had positive will ( always obey the ordinance ),unless they were cheated.
    The devil sin because by his own will ( because full state =has free will/ positive and negative will ) want to rebel.


    2Pet3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men ( bold suggests that could be done since before the creation of the world, but for the greater purpose then it is suspended )( ungodly men= spirits abide within the born of flesh men (Gen3:14) for examples ; Esau, Judas, Abraham seeds who were not born of God John8:44).


    Answered already.




    Rom8:20, 2Pet3:7, and many other verses clarify that.
     
  8. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    There is definitely a language barrier here.

    You said that we were all of this zero state before earth and that our names were "already written in the book of life". So those of us who are not destined for heaven and not written in the book of life... what was the situation of them before earth? were they in a zero state as well and their names were just simply NOT written in the book of life? You cannot be a calvinist and believe in existence before earth aswell.

    Whoa.

    So you are saying we did not have free will when we chose to eat the fruit? This contradicts many doctrines unless you are a calvinist.

    You are saying the angels are saved by works? Right and the rebels and us are condemned by works aka sin. This does not answer the question as to why Jesus died for us and not the rebellious angels.

    no. and romans 8:20 is likely speaking of satan. they clarify the current state of creation and has nothing to do with with the requirements for the display of Gods glory.
     
  9. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    No, God didn’t have the book of death, means He don’t create any one to condemn in hell.
    Hell was preserved for the devil who rebelled ( by their own will ).

    Mat25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    There are two kind of Humans ; Born of God ( there is a spiritual being in side them that God sent to wander/sojourn or name that was written already in the book of life before the creation of the world ( book of life= blue print of His plan that contain the names He intended to create for His Glory ) ei Jacob, Abel,Noah, ….), born of flesh (dust Gen3:14, merely like animal = void camp that one day possible to be the devil camp , without these kind of humans then the devil will never be able to be judged , there will never be evidences for suing the devil in the last judgment Rev20;12 , there will never be devil that transform to be the angel of light, we will never be able to judge the angels 1Cor6:3 , there will never be the anti Christ in this earth ei; Esau, Judas , Cain, Abraham seeds that were born not of God John8:44 ,…. ).
    During this perishable world , the devils are seeking for the place to rest and abide ;

    Luk11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
    11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
    11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first



    Mat25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Gen3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life (dust=born of flesh )

    2Pet2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; ( born of flesh = like animals = God did not put spiritual being inside them = they surely one day possible to be the devil’s camp for manifesting his deed (by this deed then the devil surely shall be judged) )

    Rev20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works ( the devils and the loser in the purification process shall be judged here, there shall be the evidences for judging, the winner/us also judging the angels here 1Cor6:3 act as witness of one evidence or more that is suing the devil)


    1Cor6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. ( Ye are of your father the devil = camp of the devils )


    Adam and Eve had no free will ( positive and negative will ), they only had positive will ( always obey ), they would never fall unless they were cheated, because in that time they couldn’t discern about good and evil = zero state , how can a zero state have a choice ( if they couldn’t choose between two kind that one thing was better than the other )?,

    If actually they Had free will that time then, their nakedness also their own choice , they chose to be naked where they actually knew that naked = bad, and covered the body = good, if right ! then God should worry about them that time, they should be driven out that time, not waiting until they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge about good and evil (fotkge) , because they surely could eat fotkge in that minute then continued eat the fruit of the tree of life (fotl) in the next minute without any symptom could be read , then --> God fails ?????.

    I was not saying angels were saved by work !, spiritual being in the eternal realm have no change (there will never atoning in the eternal realm every thing are flat/steady ), I said if humans were made from faithful angels that equipped by the bodies then the result will same as the number 2 option there.

    i am not a Calvinist.


    Rom8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
     
  10. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    If Adam and Eve had no free will, then how could they CHOOSE to disobey? We obviously were not robots which is what is implied by saying we have no free will?

    Genesis 1:26-28 says that God created man in "His own image". What does that mean to you that Adam was orginally created in God's own image?

    I will add...

    Genesis 2:19-20 says that God let Adam name all of the animals to "see" what he would name them... that implies (you'll have to look at the language) that Adam had a choice in what he would name something and therefore was no a robot.

    It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.... not the Tree of Free Choice.
    You can have Free Will and just no Knowledge of Good and Evil (nakedness, etc...)...

    For example .... a baby does things not based on if they are good or bad but by carnal reactions. Now when a baby gets older they will come to understand right from wrong... and of course be knowledgeable of the difference.

    ... It never specifies here where God REQUIRES sin to show his mercy and glory.... ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  11. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    i am sorry , there is a question left in reply # 347,
    The omniscient God creates us from nothing, to reach the Goal He planned.

    Then surely everything during the process will develop in phases as He wants.

    It’s impossible happened something that out of His control.

    May be we need some questions to ponder deeper like;

    Why should He introduce the seventh day in the Gen2:2-3 , where in that time Adam and Eve not yet fell ?

    Why should God give hundreds of laws the Torah laws? , if it was proven that men couldn’t fulfill just only the simplest ordinance as keeping not eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally ( men were driven out of Eden was the very strong proof that they surely ate the fruit if they were still there ), not make sense !!!.

    Why not all His people (names in the book of life ) were created altogether at once ?.


    actually the fruit of the tree of knowledge about good and evil (fotkge) = the format of this perishable realm = if they ate fotkge immediately they moved from eternal realm to the perishable realm.

    The fruit of the tree of life (fotl) = the way back from the perishable realm to the eternal realm in peace (John14:6) = if they ate fotl before they fell there was no bad impact for them so they were allowed to eat.

    John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

    If they ate fotl intentionally after they ate fotkge they surely moved from the perishable realm to the eternal realm in their previous condition (spiritually dead) + their bodies changed to be the eternal bodies then with this state their destination surely only to the lof =as if they tried to earn their salvation by work = as if they tried to fulfill the torah laws =as if they work on sabbath day ( sabbath day = the day of rest = there shall no perishable creature that able to do any thing that worthy in the eyes of God Isa64:6 , who works on Sabbath day shall be punished to dead Exo31:15, to keep the Sabbath day as the perpetual covenant for all generation Exo31:16) ( this was the reason why A and E were driven out from Eden /A and E and their offspring surely ate fotl intentionally without exception).

    Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Exo31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
    31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant

    Hence the spiritual being that live in the perishable realm will never be able to move to the eternal realm in peace through their own effort , except it is bestowed by God Him self ----> salvation is only by God’s Grace
    So by this premise; salvation is only by God’s Grace there should be the Chosen , the savior , the redeemer .

    How can God introduce that there should be the chosen?; God chose Israelites that only from the wombs of this people God put His people (spiritual beings that had already created spiritually before the foundation of the world that all of them were zero state in the first place Jer1:5 , Zec12:1) to be born = the chosen physically (this stipulation for introduction only then for the common/after Jer31:29-33 distributed to spiritually Israelites /the wombs of all)

    And your other comments above , i think due to how we comprehend : who we are , who God is, What His plan is , as long as we grasp in different way then it surely will lead us in ineffective discussion , thank for your kindness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  12. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    Do you believe there are things that happens that God chooses not to make happen (although He could) but let another entity make the decision? Is there such a thing as a human decision?

    You're answers are generalized and I'd like to ask point by point if I may, to avoid generalization.
    Thanks for ur patience.

    If Adam and Eve had no free will, then how could they CHOOSE to disobey?
     
  13. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    No, God is always the supreme , the almighty that always controls every things , if not then He surely is not God.

    In His scriptures sometimes there , a word that lead us to guess that there was a uncontrollable event, but actually the purpose of that word is to teach us willingly to verify our selves.

    For instant;


    Gen6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart

    Did God really repent? , No.

    That verses actually want to teach us that humans are really vanity creatures that from their own side there is nothing worthy in the eyes of God ( from humans effort there will never be the worthy work, from their own side always do filthy rags/ negative will , humans will never be able to make their own vehicle that can bring them to the eternal realm in peace see: Rom3:10-12 Rom8:20, Isa64:6 ).

    Explanation;

    If God really “repent” so started from Gen6:6 , God could anticipate the worsen situation then surely the flood in Noah age not happened, if we make excuse that the situation already too bad that the catastrophe in Noah was necessity that inevitable , but how then followed by Sodom and Gomorrah catastrophe ? was it also inevitable ?, how then with 2Pet3:6-7 ?

    2Pet3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.



    Some one can “choose”, If he or she has knowledge and ability ( like angels when they were created in the first place , they were all full state ), knows which one the better between two .

    But the zero state creature has only positive will (always obey , so there is a verse as Rom8:20), they will never do something beyond their own, if they were not cheated in the first place ), i can say to the wind “ don’t put sugar to my cup” and I can wait as long as I will to observe my cup , surely until the cup decay there will never be sugar inside.

    After the Fall, then humans have only negative will (in spiritual dimension) , but in the literal ( physical dimension) they surely have free will ( positive and negative will ) they surely can choose what ever they want but what ever it sound good it will never do something that can bring them to heaven or make them closer to God , so i said men have no free will, in this perishable earth men have only negative will(shall God Himself who draws them) (see Isa 64:6 , Rom 3:10-12 , Rev19:8 , Isa 26:12 ) .
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  14. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Why should God ask you if you want to be born? Why should you have any say in a decision that, as your Creator, is entirely and rightly His?

    Why does God hold you accountable for anything you do? Why shouldn't He? Why should you be able to act with impunity in His universe? God did not force you to the things you've chosen to do. He's given you capacities and potentials but you have largely determined how you would exercise them. And so, you're held accountable.
     
  15. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    Even sin....? wow


    So is God the only source of good? If so then how do the angels stay obedient to God?
     
  16. dc87

    dc87 Member

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    I don't hold anything I "create" to be accountable.... for this exact reason - that they were NOT asked and they did not choose to be here eternally. But God does for some reason.

    According to adhidw God did force me or rather the human nature forces me and as adhidw said... we have NO FREE WILL in the spiritual realm. adhidw also has defended the statement that man had no free will until AFTER we ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore we have made no decisions in the matter and your statement is respectfully false sir/mam.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  17. adhidw

    adhidw New Member

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    Sin is inevitability in this perishable realm, sin is like smell evil of corpses, and the creatures living in this perishable realm are like corpses in spiritually realm sights , there is no hope for the creatures to live forever in peace in the spiritually realm by their own efforts (so they have only negative will) , said such Isa64:6 , Rom 3:10-12 , or parable such; they will never be able to make any vehicle that can bring them to eternal realm in peace ,even their vehicle is plated of gold ( good deed in their sights )

    Even Paul;

    Rom7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



    Then the clues are : how can a spiritual being( man’s spirit ) live in this perishable world ?, and what for ?, where did they come from?.

    Find the answers then surely by His charity all your question such op are solved.

    Angels are spiritually beings , they live in the eternal realm that there is no change , when they were created in the first place ,by their own will chose to be white or black, then white will never change to be black vice versa .
     
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +1,602
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    But you don't create in the same manner in which God does. There are some superficial similarities between our creative acts and God's, of course, but His far outstrip in every respect anything we can manufacture. Most importantly, nothing you create is sentient. You don't impart life itself to anything as God does. And this difference makes all the difference to what God can demand of what He creates.

    Now, if you're like others with whom I've discussed this issue, you may be tempted to suggest that you do create life as God does by having children. But "creating" children is not really an act over which we have anything but the most rudimentary control. Parents can't control the sex of their child, or its personality, or its intellectual capacities. Parents can't even really control - for the most part - whether or not they'll conceive a child. All of this stuff is in God's domain, not ours. Our biological reproduction relies on pre-existing material to work. God creates ex nihilo (out of nothing). It takes two humans, generally, to reproduce a new human life. God acts unilaterally, without any outside aid or collaboration, when He creates. And so on.

    I don't hold to a deterministic view of human conduct. That's an atheistic thing, not a biblical one. I think what is fairly clearly revealed in Scripture is what Christian philosopher's call "soft libertarianism." There are points at which we all have a genuinely free choice. But having made a choice, we begin, thereby, to set ourselves upon a course of corresponding choices that gradually set a person in a habit of thought and action that powerfully limits their freedom to choose.

    Determinism is an ultimately self-defeating idea. If one's thinking and conduct is simply the effect of a chain of prior circumstances, devoid of any real free agency, then how can one say that what one thinks is really true? Isn't the thought of every person determined by a prior chain of events rather than the truth or falsity of a thing? This is what determinism asserts. But if a person is espousing a view they had no real choice to espouse, how can they argue for its veracity? They're just arguing for an idea they have to argue for, whether its true or not!

    I have no idea who adhidw is and no good reason to accept his view - offered to me second-hand by you - as the end of the matter of human free will. So, respectfully, your assertion that my statements are false is itself false. (And its "sir," by the way).
     
  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +5,022
    Anabaptist
    When demons control and direct the steps of people,
    there is much more than a language barrier.
    The deception is very great, and few escape it.

    (for example: there was no human life at all, before YHWH created Adam, and no human was alive before they were conceived in the womb, alive as a gift from YHWH; all the fairy tales about humans living with God before they were conceived , or in any way in some previous life, is not only bogus, and demonic, but is also death-dealing /harmful/ today for those who are seeking heaven and redemption from sin in Christ Jesus)
     
  20. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

    +1,580
    Catholic
    Single

    But God created people knowing what they'd do. He knew he'd torture them forever and yet he created them anyway. Sounds sadistic and evil to me.
     
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