Who is the real threat? Children pushed to suicide

[BigBadWlf]

Some of you folks are being deliberately obtuse - most bullying has nothing to do with perceived SIN and everything to do with perceived weakness and using words that are inflammatory and hurtful to a young person.

Most of the time with these kids in elementary school and middle school it has absolutely no relation to whether the kids is ACTUALLY gay or not. They are picked on because they are different - for a variety of reasons.

I don't know where the heck people are coming up with the assumption that Christian beliefs are at the heart of kids bullying other kids by calling them gay. My own kid is bullied in THIS VERY way - it has nothing to do with other kids thinking he's a sinner or even that he's actually gay.

I am a woman. There is a slang name for one of my body parts that is used an insult - I think you're all familiar with it. It's another one of those names that are used in bullying - it's been used against my son as well.

Why haven't I gone to the school and made a big issue over the particular word being used - there's absolutely nothing wrong with having one of them, I'm quite proud as a matter of fact. Women are strong, wonderful people. So, why haven't I said "we need to educate these kids about what it really means. . . . blah, blah"? Because THE WORDS ARE NOT THE ISSUE.

It doesn't matter WHAT words are used - gay, wussy, or poopyhead. It's NOT a gay issue - it is a KID issue and a SCHOOL issue. Schools are going to have to step in because parents refuse to discipline and control their children.

Some of the stories posted are awful - but I do note that most of the persecution of the openly homosexual takes place in older years. (not that it is right, by any means, just that it is different than the bullying that is taking place in the younger years).

It is a gay issue.

The words are used because a large segment of society believes, preaches and teaches their children that it is OK to hate people who are gay.

 

[Matty1919]

I don't know if this is a gay-issue or not, I know very little about this topic, but what I do know is that kids are inherently evil and malicious in school. Those who are perceived as weaker will always be chastised and harassed. Implementing different policies to prevent bullying will probably only mitigate the abuse. Physical bullying was fought somewhat successfully, but that turned into verbal bullying. Trying to stop verbal bullying has only caused it to evolve into online-bullying (which has caused suicides).

The best course of action is giving kids the confidence and strength to stand up for themselves -- gay and straight -- and not rely on others to solve their problems. This will not only help the problems they face on the playground, but later on in life.

 

[lucyclaire]

If a kid is constantly hearing the adults around him saying Gays are bad and abominations to God, if they are hearing people being called gay because of their political beliefs or because they don't play enough sports, how are they going to be
able to respect other kids that they perceive to be gay... It seems that in many Christian homes, it is acceptable to used homophobic language, to teach kids that gay people are evil and to be rejected and the bullying seems to be a reflection of that....You only have to look around forums on the Internet to see the vile language that is used towards Gays by people claiming they are speaking for God's word, the children are copying that same bullying behaviour maybe believing it is ok because they are doing God's work...The video clip is fear mongering propaganda, making out Gay man to be something to fear and depraved...The work of The Phelps' family is basically a campaign to bully others and use the bible as justification. I watched a documentry on them tonight, and I saw no mention of love in their message and no compassion...

When I was in middle school in the UK my headmaster was a gay man, we didn't know it but our parents did and it was an oversubscribed school and he was a wonderful teacher too, strict in many ways but fair...I suspect that had he been in parts of America, a country he loved BTW, he would have been bullied out of his job because he is gay and the schools would have been poorer for it....And it would have been the parents doing the bullying....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The fact that words describing a sexual orientation are being used as an insult of character would, to me, be a GBLT issue.

I hear of a time a long time ago when gay meant happy and queer meant weird, and in the UK another euphemism for a homosexual is what, a bundle of sticks or something.

There are many other names being called in the daily lives of bullies. Freak, nerd, geek...

I realize that some people only believe that names against gays are the only ones that hurt. I realize there are some people who believe that only gays are teased and tormented. I hope their eyes are opened someday and they realize that many kids are teased and tormented for many other reasons other than sexual orientation. Most kids in elementary and middle school really have no concept of sexual orientation - they're bullying a kid because he's different, not because the kid's come out of the closet.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I hear of a time a long time ago when gay meant happy and queer meant weird, and in the UK another euphemism for a homosexual is what, a bundle of sticks or something.

Yes language changes.

Take a look sometime at what people of African Decent were once called.

I realize that some people only believe that names against gays are the only ones that hurt. I realize there are some people who believe that only gays are teased and tormented. I hope their eyes are opened someday and they realize that many kids are teased and tormented for many other reasons other than sexual orientation. Most kids in elementary and middle school really have no concept of sexual orientation - they're bullying a kid because he's different, not because the kid's come out of the closet.

No one is born a racist. They have to be taught that hatred of someone because they look differ is an acceptable thing. By the same token no one is born accepting the idea that anti-gay hate is OK…again it is something taught.

And just where do kids learn that anti-gay bigotry is OK?

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Yes language changes.

Take a look sometime at what people of African Decent were once called.



No one is born a racist. They have to be taught that hatred of someone because they look differ is an acceptable thing. By the same token no one is born accepting the idea that anti-gay hate is OK…again it is something taught.

And just where do kids learn that anti-gay bigotry is OK?

So you believe that kids are being taught that they should hate gays, fat kids, short kids, mentally retarded children, flat-chested girls, tomboys, black kids, mexican kids, white kids, kids with braces, kids with crooked teeth, kids who talk slow, kids who lisp, etc. ?

Frankly, most people do NOT teach their children that teasing someone for being different is okay. They just fail to act decisively and firmly to nip it in the bud when they learn that their child is doing exactly that.

And where do boy learn that calling another kids a "wussy" - but you KNOW what I mean - is ok? Is that anti-woman bigotry? Are they being taught that at home by Christian parents? Should we have workshops on it - or should they just start actually punishing kids instead of okaying all of this behavior as "boys will be boys" or "kids are just mean to each other".

Again, it doesn't matter WHAT the words are that are used. What needs to be paid attention to, punished and followed up on is the INTENT behind the words. Is it hateful and harmful intent - is it malicious and cruel and designed to cause the victim to feel "less than". That is the criteria that our schools need to be using, imo.

What do you suggest as a solution BBWolf? My own kid is a target - I'm open to suggestions.

 

[BigBadWlf]

So you believe that kids are being taught that they should hate gays, fat kids, short kids, mentally retarded children, flat-chested girls, tomboys, black kids, mexican kids, white kids, kids with braces, kids with crooked teeth, kids who talk slow, kids who lisp, etc. ?

Do you think that any of them engage in such things they have not already seen and heard adults doing?

In our society it is perfectly acceptable to sneer at the obese. It is acceptable to spout hate slogans and discriminate against gays. Where do children learn hate based names? Where do they learn that it is OK to tease and jeer and attack people who are different?

And then there is the fact that such behavior is defended, as you are defending it now.

Frankly, most people do NOT teach their children that teasing someone for being different is okay. They just fail to act decisively and firmly to nip it in the bud when they learn that their child is doing exactly that.

Are you really suggesting that parents never point out an obese person and never ever refer to them as a “fat slob”? They never take occasion to curl their lip in disgust at such people? They never wonder aloud why such a person “just doesn’t go on a diet”

And where do boy learn that calling another kids a "wussy" - but you KNOW what I mean - is ok? Is that anti-woman bigotry? Are they being taught that at home by Christian parents?

Where else is anti-gay rhetoric put out as ‘truth’?

Should we have workshops on it - or should they just start actually punishing kids instead of okaying all of this behavior as "boys will be boys" or "kids are just mean to each other".

Is this not the crux of your statements?

Again, it doesn't matter WHAT the words are that are used. What needs to be paid attention to, punished and followed up on is the INTENT behind the words. Is it hateful and harmful intent - is it malicious and cruel and designed to cause the victim to feel "less than". That is the criteria that our schools need to be using, imo.

But they are not followed up on. They are subtly encouraged.

What do you suggest as a solution BBWolf? My own kid is a target - I'm open to suggestions.

One has to wonder what you have taught your child about gays and lesbians

 

[PreachersWife2004]

My parents tried very hard not to utter anything unkind about other people in front of me. Every bad word, every taunt, every name I learned, I learned from other kids. Some of those kids learned it from TV, not their parents. Some of those kids learned it from their older brothers or sisters.

You cannot blanket assume that all children learn this type of behavior from their parents.

No one is defending kids teasing gays. What we're saying is that no one should point out one specific group and say "don't say mean things about them." Rather, talk about how hate affects EVERYONE. If anything, if the experiences I had as a child taught me anything, it's that being singled out is the quickest way to get beat up after school. I think that by making bullying merely about LGBT, you're singling out even more kids/people.

The fact is, bullying, teasing, tormenting, etc., is WRONG no matter which side the bread is buttered on. Just because I wasn't gay growing up doesn't mean that the teasing and bullying I endured was no less painful. I really am sick and tired of people (not necessarily here or in this thread) downplaying it by saying "but you weren't gay". That is the most ridiculous notion - that I can't possibly understand what it means to be bullied because I wasn't gay when the bullying occurred.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

The fact that words describing a sexual orientation are being used as an insult of character would, to me, be a GBLT issue.

first off, gays make only 5% of the population. So probably 5% of all bully related cases actually do involve this. The other 95% are pretty much heterosexual kids insulting other heterosexual kids.

Bullying pretty much comes from instinct sometimes. Due to alpha-male competition and 'only the strongest survive'. Only in those days you weren't bullied, but rather killed(to insure strong bloodline continues). That dosen't make it right of course. But its partly a survival mechanism in a society that dosen't really need it now.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

One has to wonder what you have taught your child about gays and lesbians

WHere do you get that I am defending bullying behavior? You might want to re-read without your "I hate Christians, they're all bigots" prejudicial glasses on.

I haven't specifically 'taught" my children anything about gays and lesbians, other than what the words mean when they have asked. If any of them were gay, it would probably come up a bit more.

Bullying and how to deal with it gets a lot more discussion time. We talk about what might be going on in the homes of some of these kids who are so cruel to my son, how bullying others is a way to make themselves feel better than others, etc.

My children are VERY actively discouraged from making fun of ANYONE or making disparaging remarks about other people. We even have a name for such disallowed comments - "ugly talk" - and even the 3 year old is smart enough to determine what fits in that category. Again, it's more about intent than words.

Thanks so much for your insightful suggestions to help my son.

 

[atomweaver]

first off, gays make only 5% of the population. So probably 5% of all bully related cases actually do involve this. The other 95% are pretty much heterosexual kids insulting other heterosexual kids.

Your percentages assume that the bullies cannot tell the difference between a gay target and a straight one, but that's not horribly important... I'm just quibbling, here.

Bullying pretty much comes from instinct sometimes. Due to alpha-male competition

This could certainly be a part of it... although bullying is definitely a learned behavior. There is establishing a social hierarchy; attempting to find one's place in a "pecking order" by testing others in various ways. You might look at bullying as one type of behavior, from that perspective. Its not solely about establishing alpha-dominance, though. There is a whole network of relationships that get established among kids, not just whose "the biggest baddy on the playground".

and 'only the strongest survive'.

Only in those days you weren't bullied, but rather killed(to insure strong bloodline continues). That dosen't make it right of course. But its partly a survival mechanism in a society that dosen't really need it now.

Speaking more generally about all animals; did you know that this sort of "nature, red in tooth and claw!!!" is the most-often misstated adage about natural selection? The real adage is more along the lines of "only the fittest get to reproduce". "Fitness" is not solely a measure of strength (although animals do need strength to get to breeding age), but also of ability to attract a mate, and quality of parenting skills.
Yes, competition plays a role, but if its confrontation within a species, its most often a non-lethal competition for a mate than it is about any kind of genetic 'weeding out'. In people specifically, deaths between rivals for a mate are statistically exceedingly rare, and have been for quite a while.

I don't think bullying does much in this respect for the bully, either. Few people find bullying all that appealing in a mate, and few youngsters are even looking at it from that perspective. Kids certainly _do_ test one another in various ways to establish that "pecking order", though. But bullies are not necessarily at (or even near) the top of that social structure...

 

[Polycarp1]

first off, gays make only 5% of the population. So probably 5% of all bully related cases actually do involve this. The other 95% are pretty much heterosexual kids insulting other heterosexual kids.

Bullying pretty much comes from instinct sometimes. Due to alpha-male competition and 'only the strongest survive'. Only in those days you weren't bullied, but rather killed(to insure strong bloodline continues). That dosen't make it right of course. But its partly a survival mechanism in a society that dosen't really need it now.

First off, we don't know what the actual percentage is. Second off, bullying and harassment for "being gay" is not limited to kids who actually are gay, but includes any kid who is weak, unathletic, enjoys intellectual pursuits, has a high voice, is small, etc., etc. As Preacherswife2004 noted above.

Third off, bullying and harassment of kids who are, or are perceived as, gay, represents a disproportionate amount of the bullying, especially if your "fact" is accurate. Which means that an anti-bullying campaign that opposes all bullying and harassment, but particularly bullying and harassment of kids perceived as gay, is a good thing.

Which means that the strong opposition expressed on this board by "conservative Christians" last year to the Day of Silence is ... what? Not representative of the views of conservative Christians generally? Based on the thread (PW2004 was the only person self-identifying as cons. Chr. who voiced a balanced opinion about it) I'd have to call foul on any such claims.

Yes, good Christian parents would not favor bullying or harassment of any kids, gay or not. But, sadly, a lot of people are what's termed "cultural Christians" -- not moved by actual Christian values but using the cloak of adherence to Religious Right presepts to mask their own prejudices -- and they are fond of the vulgar, demeaning language, and of violent actions against those they oppose. Too, kids are in fact moved by peer pressure -- and that can be good or bad.

If a group of kids came out and said, "We think homosexual acts are sin, but we're dead set opposed to bullying and harassment of anybody, including kids tht people see as gay," wouldn't that make a remarkable difference?

This blog reports Miley Cyrus (daughter of Billy Ray, and star of the kids' series Hannah Montana) as having said this:

"Everyone deserves to love and be loved and most importantly smile."
"Jesus loves you and your partner and wants you to know how much he cares! That's like a daddy not loving his lil boy cuz he's gay and that is wrong and very sad!
"Like I said everyone deserves to be happy."
"God’s greatest commandment is to love. And judging is not loving."
"I am a Christian and I love you - gay or not - because you are no different than anyone else! We are all God's children."

And Methodist clergyman Donald Wildmon's American Family Association condemned her for it:

Such statements will send the wrong message to our children who are influenced by this teenage megastar. Parents need to realize that Cyrus is not the positive role model she was once thought to be.... Clearly she is confused and does not understand the Bible.

Because, you know, you can't trust those reports about what Jesus taught as if they were Gospel!

 

[CreedIsChrist]

NOT making it an GLBT issue INvalidates the lifestyle, which destroys the self esteem of GLBT youth

Of course, because that is what its really about. Validation. Not actually dealing with bullying considering bullys could care less who or what is being validated.

 

[Polycarp1]

I guess some people can be happy that Matthew 25 doesn't include the question, "When did I see you beaten on and inulted, and driven to despair, and instead used a cheap shot at you for points in a debate?"

 

[Polycarp1]

Let's push this back up for further discussion. Four suicides in slightly over a week should be carrying a message that this is more than a bizarre rarity.

Start out with, we all make sure school districts take harassment and bullying campaigns seriously. In the worst of these stories, complaints to the districts produced no response, unkept promises, or even complicitness where the parent was told the child "deserved what he got for deciding ot be gay."

Make sure the kid knows he can come to the parent and be sure of acceptance and help. (Non-demonstrative parents assume their kids know they love them, but are often surprised to find out how little the kids may realize it in fact. And any kid who fears he or she might actually be gay, is likely to be expecting rejection from the parents.)

Most important, if you are a high school kid, or someone with any moral influence over a high school kid, make sure that peer pressure is turned against harassment or bullying, not against their victims. Even if you have the stance that any and all homosexual feelings are sinful, it's not "condoning sin" to take a stand that nothing justifies bullying and harassing humiliation.

As a late developer who was younger and smaller than my classmates, and unfairly tagged with the "queer" label, I've been there, the victim. I survived. I learned how much hatred loves to put on a cloak of sanctity to disguise itself. And ten years ago I got Told what my particular duty to Him was -- to stand up for those who were going through when I did, and for GLBT people who are unjustly castigated by people who call themselves Christian.