Who is the real threat? Children pushed to suicide

[Oneofthediaspora]

Kids in their adolescence will bully kids who they perceive as gay. This is a bad thing. It should be stopped.

To say that adolescent kids bully kids they perceive as gay because the bullies are Christian is demonstrably untrue.

 

[Jade Margery]

Kids in their adolescence will bully kids who they perceive as gay. This is a bad thing. It should be stopped.

To say that adolescent kids bully kids they perceive as gay because the bullies are Christian is demonstrably untrue.

So demonstrate it?

From personal experience I can say that non-religious people tend to have no problem with gay people and are less likely to use sexual orientation as an insult. Kids who grew up in households where being homosexual was viewed as disgusting and wrong are more likely to employ gay slurs and attack and hurt other kids who are perceived as different. (Different = bad, gay = bad, it is easy to see why this becomes such an effective bullying technique.)

Knowing that people with strong religious backgrounds are the most likely to see homosexuality as wrong, and that most religious people in the united states are christian, it makes sense that these particular bullies are coming from christian households.

If you can dispute this logic at any point, please do so. Otherwise I must agree with the OP--the views of the parents are being used by the children to ostracize and bully others, and makes them think it is okay to do so because the kid in question is effeminate and different. And if people are being hurt, physically, mentally, and emotionally, just for kind of looking like they belong with your group, I'd say that's an issue the group in question can legitimately pursue.

It is true that bullying is going to happen, but children don't need help or encouragement from their parent's political attitudes.

 

[Maren]

So demonstrate it?

From personal experience I can say that non-religious people tend to have no problem with gay people and are less likely to use sexual orientation as an insult. Kids who grew up in households where being homosexual was viewed as disgusting and wrong are more likely to employ gay slurs and attack and hurt other kids who are perceived as different. (Different = bad, gay = bad, it is easy to see why this becomes such an effective bullying technique.)

Knowing that people with strong religious backgrounds are the most likely to see homosexuality as wrong, and that most religious people in the united states are christian, it makes sense that these particular bullies are coming from christian households.

If you can dispute this logic at any point, please do so. Otherwise I must agree with the OP--the views of the parents are being used by the children to ostracize and bully others, and makes them think it is okay to do so because the kid in question is effeminate and different. And if people are being hurt, physically, mentally, and emotionally, just for kind of looking like they belong with your group, I'd say that's an issue the group in question can legitimately pursue.

It is true that bullying is going to happen, but children don't need help or encouragement from their parent's political attitudes.

Not to mention, the only groups that I've ever heard of opposing the Day of Silence are Christian in nature. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to understand that when Christians oppose a day against bullying by trying to state counter "protests" about how gays are sinners, it tends to reinforce for many kids that it is allowable to bully gays -- even though that may not be the intended message of the Christian groups.

 

[atomweaver]

My best friend growing up was gay, and when we were 17, Scott was outed by our preacher who called him an "evil perversion of humanity" in front of the congregation, and he was forced from the church. His father kicked him out of the house within a week, and before the next Sunday Scott had stepped off the 8th floor barrier of a parking garage.

After he was buried, our preacher literally danced on his grave. He wasn't just bullied by his peers, he was bullied by his church, and his own father, all the while invoking the name of their righteous God.

What a horrible story. It makes clear, though, there is an irrefutable link between certain sects of Christianity and the issue of bullying gays.

As for the issue of education, I think an anti-bullying message is best delivered when it addresses directly whoever the local victims of bullying are. Whether the issue a particluar school is facing is anti-Semitism, racial bigotry, or homophobia, making it explicit that the specific variety of bigotry they are facing is not to be tolerated is key to education. No, it should not be generalized to "just bullying" so as to make the message more 'palatable' for the whole community. Just the opposite.

I frankly don't think the people here who look at this solely as a bullying issue, and not also a GLBT issue, are being honest with themselves. If someone was being bullied for being a conservative Christian, they would want that an explicit part of the anti-bullying message. And if that were the case, I would agree with them wholeheartedly. So, why the double standard?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That is not quite correct.

Yes, the main issue is teh bullying... but the problem behind that is that too many people still think that bullying is ok or not that bad when it is aimed at (perceived) homosexuals.

Bullying still happens for all kind of reasons... it´s sad, but kids will be kids. But imagine the general outcry if such a bullying for racial reasons would lead to suicides.

I bet it does. I know it does. It just doesn't make for good headline news these days.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Kids in their adolescence will bully kids who they perceive as gay. This is a bad thing. It should be stopped.

.

No, kids bully other kids who they view as weak, have small or fat stature, socially un-accepted, and unable to defend and stand up for themselves. Most younger children don't even have a full concept of sexuality anyway.

 

[onemessiah]

My best friend growing up was gay, and when we were 17, Scott was outed by our preacher who called him an "evil perversion of humanity" in front of the congregation, and he was forced from the church. His father kicked him out of the house within a week, and before the next Sunday Scott had stepped off the 8th floor barrier of a parking garage.

After he was buried, our preacher literally danced on his grave. He wasn't just bullied by his peers, he was bullied by his church, and his own father, all the while invoking the name of their righteous God.

Disgusting...
Yet, somehow it doesn't surprise me either.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[atomweaver]

No, kids bully other kids who they view as weak, have small or fat stature, socially un-accepted, and unable to defend and stand up for themselves. Most younger children don't even have a full concept of sexuality anyway.

I still fail to understand why you feel that if homosexuality (or Antisemitism, or racism, or insert basis for bullying here...) plays a role in a specific instance of bullying, it must be ignored when the bullying is addressed. Behavior correction which is overly abstracted FAILS when applied to adolescents, CreedIsChrist. You know this...

Compare;

"Tommy, its really not nice to treat your sister that way. She deserves your respect for her personal space. I think you need to take some time to think about this."

vs.

"Tommy, stop it. You aren't allowed to hit your sister, ever. Go sit a timeout."

Which is more effective? Your position suggests the former as an analogous solution to the problem this thread presents.

 

[JGG]

No, kids bully other kids who they view as weak, have small or fat stature, socially un-accepted, and unable to defend and stand up for themselves. Most younger children don't even have a full concept of sexuality anyway.

Being small or fat are sins?

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Some of you folks are being deliberately obtuse - most bullying has nothing to do with perceived SIN and everything to do with perceived weakness and using words that are inflammatory and hurtful to a young person.

Most of the time with these kids in elementary school and middle school it has absolutely no relation to whether the kids is ACTUALLY gay or not. They are picked on because they are different - for a variety of reasons.

I don't know where the heck people are coming up with the assumption that Christian beliefs are at the heart of kids bullying other kids by calling them gay. My own kid is bullied in THIS VERY way - it has nothing to do with other kids thinking he's a sinner or even that he's actually gay.

I am a woman. There is a slang name for one of my body parts that is used an insult - I think you're all familiar with it. It's another one of those names that are used in bullying - it's been used against my son as well.

Why haven't I gone to the school and made a big issue over the particular word being used - there's absolutely nothing wrong with having one of them, I'm quite proud as a matter of fact. Women are strong, wonderful people. So, why haven't I said "we need to educate these kids about what it really means. . . . blah, blah"? Because THE WORDS ARE NOT THE ISSUE.

It doesn't matter WHAT words are used - gay, wussy, or poopyhead. It's NOT a gay issue - it is a KID issue and a SCHOOL issue. Schools are going to have to step in because parents refuse to discipline and control their children.

Some of the stories posted are awful - but I do note that most of the persecution of the openly homosexual takes place in older years. (not that it is right, by any means, just that it is different than the bullying that is taking place in the younger years).

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Part of the problem, as I see it, is most often these young kids who are being bullied so much are so below the radar that the bullying escapes notice. These are kids who are essentially outcasts - but our overloaded teachers don't always know that. Remember that the same words used in bullying are also used between friends as a joke - I think what the schools are missing is that while it is considered teasing between friends, when you have a child who is different and outside of the perceived social norm, it is intentional cruelty which cannot be ignored.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Excellent posts, Flibbertigibbet.

I was taunted mercilessly in elementary school. I was called a lesbian because I had short hair, I was called a [insert slang word for gay here] because I wore a second hand coat to school. I got pushed down in the mud and my skirt was constantly thrown up over my head. I was jumped by people on the way home from school more times than I can count because on those days I wore purple shoes. I got called gay and queer and all those other "bad" names simply because I was different and didn't seem to care about it. The fact that I wasn't gay doesn't change the fact that it was ALL very hurtful.

Fortunately, my torturers outgrew their fascination with my different-ness and oddly enough, I'm good friends with two or three of them still. We grew out of the phase of name-calling simply because one didn't conform to what we viewed as "normal". I never had a desire to tell on these kids - in fact I pitied them quite a bit. That was a direct result of excellent parenting, where they told me that I was unique and that I should hold my head high because of it. I always figured that these kids had it all wrong and oh, what they were missing out on. Granted, the taunts did hurt, and there were days that I did not want to go to school and have kids tell me to go kiss this girl or that girl. But, never once did I think of killing myself. Never. And I owe that to my supportive parents (and a couple of honestly fantastic teachers, too!).

 

[b&wpac4]

Bullies are the reason I will teach my kid the same technique I used to try to stop it: Fight extremely unfair. Hit them with chairs, books, anything you can get your hands on. You'd be amazed at how quickly bullying stops once they have a broken nose.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Bullies are the reason I will teach my kid the same technique I used to try to stop it: Fight extremely unfair. Hit them with chairs, books, anything you can get your hands on. You'd be amazed at how quickly bullying stops once they have a broken nose.

Frankly, I agree with you. Some kids, however, are just not going to fight at all - no matter how much you try to get them to stand up for themselves.

 

[cgcsb]

My best friend growing up was gay, and when we were 17, Scott was outed by our preacher who called him an "evil perversion of humanity" in front of the congregation, and he was forced from the church. His father kicked him out of the house within a week, and before the next Sunday Scott had stepped off the 8th floor barrier of a parking garage.

After he was buried, our preacher literally danced on his grave. He wasn't just bullied by his peers, he was bullied by his church, and his own father, all the while invoking the name of their righteous God.

how awful.

It's hearing stories like this that make me so angry at people who say there should be no antti bullying campaign aimed at LGBT youth. When the fact is that 90% of LGBT persons suffer consistant harrasment at school.

The children are learning this behaviour from their parents who learned it from theirs. It's a never ending cycle of hate.

In the above mentioned case it was the supposedly responsable adults that commited the crime (and it is, or at least it should be) a crime. One's Church leaders and parents are suppoosed to be our gaurdians, people who you can count on.

 

[cgcsb]

ALL school shootings were from children who were not gay.

you couldn't possibly know if that's true or not

If you have looked around in the world, you would notice that calling someone "gay" or a "*ag" doesn't mean they are calling them that because they actually are homosexual, but rather is an attack on the persons character and dignity.

That's true and it shows that society needs to change because children are being taught at home that a person who is gay indicates character flaw. Surely you agree that cannot continue

Even actual gay people themselves use the same insults against people in their own groups.

Yes sometimes, a gay man will, in the company of another gay man or men will use the word f*g. As will some black men say n****r to other black men. That doesn't mean it can be used as an insult from those that are not of that minority group, especially in a school enviornment.

Its no different than calling someone a loser, dumb, douc*e, an idiot, etc.

It's very different because losers etc. as you say don't have minority status probably because they don't view themselves as actually being a loser

The arsenal of words that are used don't have any meanings in them themselves, but rather just to insult and put someone down.

So then why is a person allegedly being gay a put down if it has no meaning?

And in all honesty do you really think that because some GLTB group says to children in schools to stop calling others gay actually means the kids are gonna do that?

I don't expect it too but at the moment some school boards are practically endorsing homophobic bullying by ignoring the situation.

Making this a GLBT issue creates the problem of validating the actual lifestyle in schools, and that doesn't belong in the schools as its the parents job to teach their children.

neither schools nor parents can teach their children to be gay or straight that would be to assume god's job.

NOT making it an GLBT issue INvalidates the lifestyle, which destroys the self esteem of GLBT youth

So as I said, its a bullying issue. Not a sexual orientation issue. The GLBT need to stop using this poor boys death as a tool to get foothold in public schools to affirm their lifestyle.

why would adult gay men go through that trouble just so they can get "affirmation" from 10 year olds?

Why would gay organisations want a "foothold" in schools other than to prevent anti gay bullying? do you not agree that anti gay bullying, like all bullying is a problem?

 

[JGG]

how awful.

It's hearing stories like this that make me so angry at people who say there should be no antti bullying campaign aimed at LGBT youth. When the fact is that 90% of LGBT persons suffer consistant harrasment at school.

The children are learning this behaviour from their parents who learned it from theirs. It's a never ending cycle of hate.

In the above mentioned case it was the supposedly responsable adults that commited the crime (and it is, or at least it should be) a crime. One's Church leaders and parents are suppoosed to be our gaurdians, people who you can count on.

When the churches and parents are setting this kind of example, I don't get why people just turn around and say "well kids will be kids." I assume its code for "well kids will be kids, and your kid deserves to get bullied because he's icky."

 

[JGG]

Fortunately, my torturers outgrew their fascination with my different-ness...

My friend's torturers never outgrew theirs. Realistically, most people don't. Most people need it to prop their ego upon.

 

[HaloHope]

As someone who tried to take their own life due to depression and persecution from others at school/church etc.. I can certainly empathise with these kids. I was a bit older than they were when I overdosed but im pretty sure the reasons for doing so are similar.

To those of you claiming blame it on the parents I don't think thats right at all, the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of peoples torementers and those who have it in their heads that different is bad or wrong. The blame lays with society, with those who reinforce in others that different is bad, whether adults, the peers of those bullied or even in some cases a church. Its their fault these people were pushed to the edge and nobody elses.

I'm now older, hopefully a little wiser and living in an environment where its ok to be different. Unfortunately as I was growing up an intersexed individual (who had no real knowledge I was till I hit puberty and androgeny became my middle name) kids, adults, and others reinforced that it wasn't ok despite the fact I couldnt really do much about it. The same applies to anyone picked on for their sexuality, the way they look or anything like that.

 

[Exhausted]

Then its the schools and the teachers fault for not stepping in and enforcing their policy.




Because this is a bullying issue, not a GLTB issue. Most children who are picked on it school are not even gay. ALL school shootings were from children who were not gay. So saying this is a GLTB issue is dishonest and doesn't address probably 95% of the issues that do involve bullying.



Homophobia? We don't even know if this child was even gay, lol. If you have looked around in the world, you would notice that calling someone "gay" or a "*ag" doesn't mean they are calling them that because they actually are homosexual, but rather is an attack on the persons character and dignity. Even actual gay people themselves use the same insults against people in their own groups. Its no different than calling someone a loser, dumb, douc*e, an idiot, etc. The arsenal of words that are used don't have any meanings in them themselves, but rather just to insult and put someone down.

And in all honesty do you really think that because some GLTB group says to children in schools to stop calling others gay actually means the kids are gonna do that? Please. Anti-bulling agency's have been doing this for decades now. The problems are the lax policies in the public schools and the deadbeat teachers. Making this a GLBT issue creates the problem of validating the actual lifestyle in schools, and that doesn't belong in the schools as its the parents job to teach their children.

So as I said, its a bullying issue. Not a sexual orientation issue. The GLBT need to stop using this poor boys death as a tool to get foothold in public schools to affirm their lifestyle.



that is quite immature. Maybe you should concentrate more on what I said instead of attacking my character and using emotional diatribe. For every alledged gay person who had died I could provide twice as much from people like Jeffery Dahmer and Gacy.

The fact that words describing a sexual orientation are being used as an insult of character would, to me, be a GBLT issue.

It's very equivalent of accusing whites of, to put in polite terms, being fond of blacks during desegregation. The only reason that you couldn't just insult a white with a racial terms is that the difference is on the outside. This time, the difference is on the inside, so the insults can be more direct.