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Featured Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by precepts, Nov 28, 2016.

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  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Another libelous comment from a rapturist whose beliefs are challenged, showing his unchristian attitude.
    You fail to read properly or comprehend what I do write and you jump to the wrong conclusions.

    I stand by the fact of Revelation 7:9 being a earthly scene. That chapter describes what will happen on earth up until the Return of Jesus, verses 1-14. Then during Eternity; verses 15-17.
     
  2. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Ah yeah, sure, ok Keras if you say so.

    Revelation 7:9-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
    Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
    Be to our God forever and ever.
    Amen.”











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  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Nowhere does Revelation 7 say it is describing events in heaven. The first 3 verses set an earthly scene and there is no change of location mentioned. It is simply your false rapture belief, that makes the vast multitude be somewhere other than in Jerusalem, as confirmed by Revelation 14:1
    So the onus is on you to prove Revelation 7:9 takes place in heaven, instead of just assuming it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  4. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Matthew 7:15-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’










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    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I say: Baaaa
    You say: Woof
    What is the 'fruit' of the rapture doctrine?

    You who promote a rapture removal are actually prophesying in Jesus Name. What will you say to Him on the Day of His wrath and you remain on earth? And then consider carefully what He will say to you, as a promoter of a proved wrong and unscriptural doctrine.
     
  6. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!

    Lord, You are faithful and have kept your promise to delivers us before the wrath, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 5:9, Hebrews 9:28, 2 Peter 2:9. Salvation belongs to You Lord, we give You honor and praises!

    /waves palm branches in heaven!

    John 12:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    12 The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out:

    “Hosanna! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ The King of Israel!”


    Psalm 118:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
    We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

    Revelation 7:9-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
    Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
    Be to our God forever and ever.
    Amen.”




    .
    1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    Hebrews 9:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
    so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

    2 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,












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  7. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Revelation 8:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

    I will say: Lord forgive Keras, for he know not what he do.









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  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The timing of the event is found in the following verse.
    It reveals the time that wrath has come and the time of the judgment of the dead.


    Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 


    Below we have the resurrection of the dead bracketed by two verses making it clear that Christ is the Judge. These words were revealed by the Judge.

    Joh 5:27  and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 

    Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 

    Joh 5:29  and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 


    Joh 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 


    We belong to the Judge, because He bought us with His Blood at Calvary.

    Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 


    The wrath of God will be poured out on all those who have rejected Him, both the quick and the dead. (2 Timothy 4:1)

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  9. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    We see the wrath happening at a time after Christ delivered the church in the passages below. Jesus comes for the bride before the wrath. Surely a post-trib rapture is refuted in the context of the bible.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    Hebrews 9:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
    so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


    2 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,





    .
    You do realized that was already fulfilled at the cross, right? Matthew 27:50-53.

    John 5:25 (CEB) “I assure you that the time is coming—and is here!—when the dead will hear the voice of God's Son, and those who hear it will live.

    John 5:25 (CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time -- in fact, it's already here -- when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life.

    John 5:25 (ESV) "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    John 5:25 (GNT) I am telling you the truth: the time is coming - the time has already come - when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.

    John 5:25 (GW) "I can guarantee this truth: A time is coming (and is now here) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live.

    John 5:25 (MSG) "It's urgent that you get this right: The time has arrived - I mean right now! - when dead men and women will hear the voice of the Son of God and, hearing, will come alive.

    John 5:25 (NIRV) "What I'm about to tell you is true. A time is coming for me to give life. In fact, it has already begun. The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God. Those who hear it will live.

    John 5:25 (NLT) “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.

    John 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    {book-chapter-title}:{verse-number-start} - {passage-text}

    "Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Matthew 10:7 and Matthew 3:2.

    "I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40, 6:44.

    Matthew 27:50-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
    50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.





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    The covenant in Matthew 26:28 is not to be mistaken for the promised God made only to the surviving remnant of Israel mentioned in Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 and Hebrews 10:16.

    This promise He will give them is the promise of the holy spirit during the latter part of the tribulation after they accepted Christ so they will obey God's laws in their hearts and minds via sanctification.

    Jeremiah 31:32-34 New King James Version (NKJV)
    32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,a says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    Hebrews 8:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


    Hebrews 10:11-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
    11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
    16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”











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  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The same exact text is found repeated in Hebrews 8:6-13. In Hebrews 8:6 we find that Christ is "now" the mediator of this better covenant. In verse 13 of the same passage we find the Old Covenant has been made obsolete by the New Covenant. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    On the day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised to Jeremiah. When the Church began it was made up of almost all Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.

    The Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
    .............................................
    Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

    Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
    (Peter addressed the crowd on Pentecost as "all the house of Israel".) 


    1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
    (This verse was written in the present tense during the first century.) 


    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

    Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (This upper-case text is copied directly from the Book of Jeremiah.)


    Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Written in the present tense during the first century)

    Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


    Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
     
    Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

    Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
    (NKJV)
    ...................................................................

     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I too, pray for all those deceived by false teaching. For everyone who will be shocked and terrified as they stand amid disaster all around, not knowing which way to turn.
    Will their faith be strong enough to not renounce God, when their belief of a rapture fails to happen?
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    And once again......YOU are incorrect!!! Rev. 7:9 IS NOT EARTHLY!

    Barnes Notes on the Bible says...........
    "I beheld - That is, he saw them before the throne. The vision is transferred from earth to heaven; from the contemplation of the scene when desolation seemed to impend over the world, and when comparatively few in number were "sealed" as the servants of God, to the time when the redeemed would be triumphant, and when a host which no man can number would stand before God."

    Pulpit Commentary says..............
    "The throne is there represented as set up in heaven, and the vision here is a vision of what will occur in heaven."

    Rev. 7:9.........
    "After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

    WHERE in that verse is any mention of Jerusalem, Israel, New York, or even the earth?????

    This is why you are always so wrong on your theology. YOU just make stuff up as you go along and then pretend what you have decided is true is actually true. But it is only true to YOU and no one else.

    NO WHERE in that verse is there a reference or even a mention of the earth. The truth is that it says......."STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE".

    Please notice Rev. 7:11........
    "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God".

    It does not say EARTH!!!! It does not say Jerusalem.

    Now I agree that it will be but not as this point in the Revelation. The New City of Jerusalem will come down from heaven and God will tabernacle with men. But that is not in Rev. 7.

    Where is throne of God????? It is right where it has always been.....IN HEAVEN!

    You are saying that the angels and elders and the four beasts who were in heaven in chapter 1 and 4 and 5 are now on the earth. How did that happen. Where in the Scriptures of the Revelation do we go to find that?????

    Then Rev. 7:15-...........
    " Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. "
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Lord! Amen and Amen!
     
  14. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    I don't think you understand Keras. It's your faith versus the promise from Jesus. He's always faithful and will deliver on His promise to deliver the church before the wrath to come, and not after. Your post-trib rapture refuted right here.

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    Will you have enough faith when you stand before the a/c as you watch before you Christians being beheaded when those that didn't make the rapture are handed to the beast for 42 months.

    Revelation 13:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Bottom line it'll be your faith that will be tested, not Jesus'.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And do you know what this verse means? It's another passage that refutes a post-trib rapture.

    Psalm 118:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

    It's the church in heaven glorifying God and Jesus immediately after the rapture. If you think the house of the Lord in this passage is the 3rd temple on earth, guess again.

    The 3rd temple gets destroy at the AoD, no temple standing by the end of the tribulation. No post-trib rapture.

    Once again your teachings are refuted in the context of the bible.












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  15. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    BAB, read this carefully. These are not the same covenant.

    In Jeremiah 31:31 God said He will make a covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. This is a covenant involving ONLY the Jews.

    In Matthew 26:28 Jesus said this is the blood of the new covenant which is shed for many. This covenant Jesus made is for everyone, Jews and gentiles.

    Jesus did not say "this is the blood of the new covenant which is shed for many Jews" during the last supper.















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  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I KNOW you don't understand.
    All the promises of God to His people are for protection, not removal. 1 Thess 1:10 says 'delivers', from the Greek 'ruomenon', is better rendered as 'rescued from. This in no way proves or even infers a removal from the earth. In this event, the Lord's Day of wrath, Those who call upon His Name will be protected. Acts 2:21, 2 Peter 2:9
    Later in Revelation 12, the Lord takes His Christian people to a place of safety, we living humans never go to heaven.
    Prefer to believe the commentators, do you? I rejected the opinions of men years ago.
    OK, where in that verse is heaven mentioned? Or anywhere in that chapter, but earth is, the first 3 verses set the scene.
    I have several times posted how God's Throne has been seen from the earth. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 8:56 As a Spiritual concept, God, His Throne and heaven are anywhere and everywhere to us.
    This statement contradicts many scriptures, a veritable mountain of errors! Not to mention the grammatical ones!
     
  17. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Doesn't matter what translation you use. whether if it's "deliver" or "rescue" from the wrath to come, both refutes a post-trib rapture.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Acts 2:21 means to be saved from a spiritual death, not a physical death, Mr. born-yesterday.

    Acts 2:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And it shall come to pass
    That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
    Shall be saved.’

    Try calling upon the Lord when you're about to be beheaded by the a/c in the tribulation and see if that'll prevent you from getting your head chopped off. Revelation 20:4.

    -------------------------------------------------

    And 2 Peter 2:29 is evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

    2 Peter 2:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,



    The woman in Revelation 12 is not the church.

    Once again you're wrong on all accounts. What else is new?








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  18. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Psalm3704 said:

    Try calling upon the Lord when you're about to be beheaded by the a/c in the tribulation and see if that'll prevent you from getting your head chopped off. Revelation 20:4.



    I wouldn’t rule out calling on the Lord at a time like that, if God has a purpose for your life, that sword just might turn to rubber in the executioners hand. Then again you might lose your head and go to be with Christ.


    Hebrews 11:35


    Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
     
  19. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Post-tribber will say just about anything to make their version of the rapture work.


    God's purpose for the church is not to endure His wrath. Post-tribbers don't seem to get this.



    You should read a translation you can actually understand. This passage supports my argument.

    Hebrews 11:35 Good News Translation (GNT)
    Through faith women received their dead relatives raised back to life. Others, refusing to accept freedom, died under torture in order to be raised to a better life.

    This is telling you you can't call upon the name of the Lord and expect the sword to turn into rubber and be instantly saved.








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  20. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Not surprised you missed my point which had nothing to do with pre or post.


    I was challenging your statement of doubt and unbelief. Not very good advice to sarcastically question whether or not anyone should call on the Lord at any time. God is a God of miracles and just because someone wants to chop your head does not mean you would waste your time as you seem to imply, by calling on the Lord.
     
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