Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[LastSeven]

I don't have to look at your list to know it is false. I already have more than enough evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture. One day when it happens, and your left behind, you will have wished you had believed.

Let's say for the sake of argument that your doctrine is true and there will indeed be a pre-trib rapture. Do you think people have to believe in the pre-trib rapture in order to partake, or do they only have to believe in Jesus?

 

[LastSeven]

Matthew 13:10-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.​

It's there, you just can't see it. Some will be given more, some will be given less and others will even have what they already have taken away. One is now constantly promoting God's throne room as a place on earth.

Not every Christian is equal.

Matthew 13:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

Romans 11:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Isaiah 6:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”


Jeremiah 5:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
‘Hear this now, O foolish people,
Without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not,
And who have ears and hear not:


Ezekiel 12:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, which has eyes to see but does not see, and ears to hear but does not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
​

Acts 28:27 New King James Version (NKJV)
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’​

So your answer to my question about how palm branches prove a pre-trib rapture is to say "you just don't understand"???

 

[LastSeven]

The Bible, therefore, speaks of two future resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of death.

You referring to this?

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sounds like one resurrection to me.

 

[LastSeven]

Preterism is the most obviously false position. No objective person can read Revelation and come away thinking that those things have already happened already. The pure destructive nature of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments would effect this Earth on a massive scale (that nobody could ever forget). 1/4th of the Earth will be killed. I don't know about you, but what event or point in history did this happen? What about the Mark of the Beast? Was there a mark given whereby nobody could not buy or sell without this mark? What about the return of Christ whereby every eye shall see Him? Was there an event in history whereby everyone had reported they had seen Jesus?
...

You know there's such a thing as partial preterism right? In fact, I don't think anyone here believes in full preterism. So... your incredulity is misdirected.

 

[Straightshot]

"Do you think people have to believe in the pre-trib rapture in order to partake, or do they only have to believe in Jesus?"


The issue here is those who deny the Lord's promise on the matter when shown the evidence from scripture .... this can reflect an unsaved condition

There is much deception over this subject that has been and is being spread for various reasons by false teachers for nefarrious and proprietary reasons .... Satan is oftern the instigator because of his hatred against the Lord and His promises related to the potential of human immortality [Genesis 3]

This behavior has grown today as the world moves closer to the time .... the event will come with no warning and those standing against the Lord's action will enter the tribulation period

No genuine believer will enter

The born again Christian has inset spiritual discernment and when presented with the full scriptural array of the Lord's pre-tribulation call will know the truth about the matter and accept it

On the other hand there are those who actually believe in Jesus Christ and who are not literate with the Lord's prophetic word who will partake

 

[LastSeven]

The issue here is those who deny the Lord's promise on the matter when shown the evidence from scripture .... this can reflect an unsaved condition

So to be fair then, if people read into scripture what is not actually there and believe it to be true, this can also reflect an unsaved condition?

 

[Straightshot]

No .... not on this particular issue

There is no "reading into"

The related scriptures taken together give the truth on the matter

The issue is settled regardless of those who deny

Your questioning can also be reversed

What if the Lord's call comes and you are still a dead man walking around upon the earth as the tribulation rolls?

The timing has not been revealed to any man .... the Lord's decides this

There have been many people deceived by false teachers over the last 2000 years who have and do set dates, or teachers that deny

This is why a man must becareful who the man follows ... it is the Lord that leads the serious believer into truth .... not the religions of men

All who desire to hand off the foot ball of their salvation to others are at risk

 

[Major1]

You referring to this?

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sounds like one resurrection to me.

You make an excellent observation and I thank you for posting it.

Many well meaning people have been taught to believe that there is only one “general” resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world. This is a serious error which has robbed many believers of joy and victory in this life. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we taught that the bodies of all men will be raised at the same time. It is true that all the dead will be raised and brought into judgment, but neither the time, the place, nor the judgments are the same.

The Bible clearly distinguishes between a first and a second resurrection. Allow me to say to you about the The First Resurrection.

1 Thess. 4:16.......
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.

Now in my opinion the language could be no clearer than this--“The dead in Christ shall rise first.” We see first that the time of the First Resurrection is the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Heaven to rapture, or Catch away all of the believer of Christ to Himself.

The challenge now is that we must distinguish between Christ’s coming for His own at the "Rapture/Catching Away" before the millennium and His coming again to raise the rest of the dead who are the unbelievers who remained in their graves during the thousand years.

Let there be no misunderstanding that it is a settled fact that there is at least a one thousand year interval between the First and the Second Resurrection. The Apostle John, by Divine inspiration, confirms this so that there could not be any argument over it.

Revelation 20:4-5
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So then, the Bible teaches us that the First Resurrection includes 3 companies of believers who will have been raised at different times. Here is where some people get confused.
There are three stages of the resurrection of believers:

(First Stage)....
When our Lord was crucified on the Cross, we read in Matt. 27:51-52.......
“And, behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose” .

(Second Stage)....
There is the second stage found as I said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when all true believers are raised at the first appearance of Christ. To this we add the Apostle Paul’s word in First Corinthians:15:52.....
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed”.

(Third Stage)....
The third and final stage of the First Resurrection occurs seven years after the resurrection of saints at Christ’s coming at the rapture. “Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000.” Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred. These are brought forth from the dead at the end of the Tribulation just before Christ comes to earth to reign for one thousand years.

SECOND RESURRECTION:

When the thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed for a season and will carry on his rebellion where he left off before the millennium when he was cast into the bottomless pit. Then God will have done with Satan forever.

Revelation 20:10.........
“the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”.

Rev. 20:11-15 which is AFTER Armageddon and the 2nd Coining of Christ we read.............
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

[Major1]

So once again, you're making a statement based on an assumption. The assumption being that "the great tribulation" is the seven year period at the end of time.

Where exactly in scripture is this great tribulation defined as being exactly that?

See if you can't prove that the tribulation is what you believe it is, then you also can't prove who these saints are.

My o my. Now I do not mean to insult you and I do respect all people, but you are on a Christian forum and YOU do not know about the 7 year Tribulation but YOU then argue/debate of the Rapture.
You are saying that I am making up (Assumption) this doctrine as I go along simply because YOU do not accept the Bible's teachings. That my dear friend is rather perplexing to me. However, I will try to help you understand.

Matt. 24:21............
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall
be shortened."

Jer. 30:4-6........
Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
“For thus says the Lord ‘We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?"

That it is the time of "Jacob's Trouble," and is compared in its sufferings to the "birth-pangs" of a woman.

In Eze 26:34 it is spoken of as the time when-Israel shall........
"Pass under the Rod; ".

Then in Eze. 22:19-21, we read how that God is going to cast Israel into His.......
"Melting Pot, " where they are to be refined as "gold is refined." See also

Mal. 3:1-3, and Zech. 13:9. Daniel 12:1 speaks of it as a "Time of Trouble" for his people, the Jews.

From these references any one should be able to see that "The Great Tribulation" is something that has to do with the Jewish people, and is a judgment through which they must pass as a "refining process" to fit them to again be God's chosen people. Indirectly the Gentiles will be affected by it, but the Church will be "caught out" before that "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord."

The Prophet Daniel in 9:20-22in his Vision of the "Seventy Weeks" . He was told that it would be 69 weeks from the going forth of the Edict "to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince."

Those were "Prophetic Weeks, " in which each week stood for "seven years, " and they were literally fulfilled, for it was exactly 483 years of 360 days, from the going forth of that Edict, B.C. 445, until Jesus rode in triumph into Jerusalem, A. D. 30, and was hailed as the promised Son of David.

Within a week the Jews had Jesus crucified and then "God's Clock" stopped, and the remaining "one" week, the "Seventieth, " has still to be fulfilled. In the meantime, in the break between the "sixty-ninth" and "seventieth" week, the Holy Spirit is gathering out the Church, and when it is complete it will be taken away, and then "God's Clock" will begin to tick again, because He will again be dealing with. His People the Jews.

It is during this last, or "Seventieth Week" of Daniel's "Seventy Weeks, " that the Tribulation is to occur, and as the "weeks" of the already fulfilled "sixty-nine" weeks, were each "seven years" in length, so this last, or "Seventieth Week, " must be the same.

The length then of the "Tribulation Period" should be "seven years, ".

 

[Major1]

Anything but the truth, what is the reason why I said there's no rapture if you're so serious about challenging the facts you called "theories and beliefs," as if you don't know fact from fiction?

Game over. I know your fruits.

View attachment 186382

With all due respect my friend, you do not use any Bible passages to support your opinions.

Your comments seem to me to be very deceptive and personal as well are argumentative.

Do you actually have any Bible verses to post that we could debate which say that
THERE IS NO SUCH THING COMING CALLED THE RAPTURE????

So far you have only given us "what YOU think" which is not truth at all.

 

[Major1]

Let's say for the sake of argument that your doctrine is true and there will indeed be a pre-trib rapture. Do you think people have to believe in the pre-trib rapture in order to partake, or do they only have to believe in Jesus?

Now, I do not mean to be disrespectful to you in any way. I keep reading your comments and I have to ask you........have you done any Bible study or is what you believe coming from computer websites?

Honestly, did you actually just ask..........
"Do you think people have to believe in the pre-trib rapture in order to partake, or do they only have to believe in Jesus/".

Why do you think that the person today who has heard the gospel and refuses Jesus Christ can not be saved AFTER the Rapture my friend????

And before you condemn that comment, please take the time to read and STUDY 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.......
"he coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

 

[Major1]

You know there's such a thing as partial preterism right? In fact, I don't think anyone here believes in full preterism. So... your incredulity is misdirected.

ANY Preterism, whether it be full, partial, moderate, extreme or consistent is false teaching.

The problems with preterism are more than anyone wants to read here. But I will say that for one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting according to Jeremiah 31:33–36, and there will be a future restoration of Israel as seen in Isaiah 11:12.

The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” in 2 Timothy 2:17–18.

And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.

 

[keras]

The church of the firstborn is seen in heaven before God and Jesus and the company of angels: Hebrews 12:22-24.

If you read Hebrews 12 right through, or even from Hebrews 12:18-28, you would [should] understand that Paul is comparing the Old Covenant with the New. He says that we Christians are spiritually joined to the heavenly Jerusalem and our names are enrolled in heaven.
Philippians 3:20, where Paul says: we are citizens of heaven and from heaven, we expect our Deliverer to come.
This in no way means Christians lived then, or will ever actually live in heaven. We await Jesus to come again from heaven and shake the earth with devouring fire and provided our faith cannot be shaken, we will remain, safely under His care. Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 31:23-24

Hebrews 12:22-24, as you quote does NOT say the church is seen in heaven. You have made that up to fit the false rapture theory.

 

[Straightshot]

"ANY Preterism, whether it be full, partial, moderate, extreme or consistent is false teaching"

No doubt

There is no excuse for the preterist, full of partial

The things past, now, and the things hereafter [future] are clearly defined in prophetic scripture

Those who intentionally skew this truth have ulterior motives

 

[keras]

The problems with preterism are more than anyone wants to read here. But I will say that for one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting according to Jeremiah 31:33–36, and there will be a future restoration of Israel as seen in Isaiah 11:12.

There are, of course, many fulfilled prophesies. It takes good discernment to know what has happened and what awaits fulfilment.

Re Israel; because you believe in the church being taken to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation, you believe in ethnic, Jewish Israel being restored.
This idea contradicts firstly, the many prophesies about the final Judgement of Judah and only a remnant will be saved.
Secondly, Jesus and the Apostles made it clear: there is only one people of God. Ethnicity, race, gender, or whatever no longer counts for anything, only true belief and faith in God.
Thirdly, there is the hidden truth of the actual House of Israel, the 10 Northern tribes, lost to history and still scattered among the nations. THEY are the people that Hosea 1:10 is talking about. It is them, us Caucasian Westerners, that have embraced the Christian faith and are now the inheritors of God's promises to Israel.
Look forward to the Day of our Redemption and the great Blessings of God to His people!

 

[Straightshot]

The teaching above is the British/Israel theology taught and promoted by the late Herbert W. Armstrong who was a false prophet

His false teaching was carried on by his son Garner "Ted" Armstrong

Garner's following collapsed after he was caught in a number of illicit behaviors and the movevment splintered into several sects all rooted in the same British/Israel ruse

http://www.bible.ca/pre-british-israelism-herbert-armstrong.htm
http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume27/GOT027152.html
http://tribulationproject.com/archives/224

No Gentile of any nation is a part of the 10 ethnic tribes of Israel as the movempireement claims

Not in the past, and not today

Armstrong manipulated and skewed many scriptures in order to build his false teaching empire

 

[keras]

This behavior has grown today as the world moves closer to the time .... the event will come with no warning and those standing against the Lord's action will enter the tribulation period

No genuine believer will enter

SS, you really must try to read what the Bible actually says, or be laughed at for your unscriptural comments, as above.
Revelation 12:17 ...the dragon went off the wage war against those who keep God's Commandments and witness to Jesus.
Also Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, both say God's holy people are defeated by the Anti-Christ.
It is plain that Christians are on earth and do face trials and tribulation, a rapture removal is just wishful thinking.

As I, and others have told you, your saying that those who challenge your rapture belief are disqualified from being raptured, is extremely unchristian and judgmental of you.
I know I don't have to worry about it, but be aware that God sees into the heart and if your heart is hardened against fellow Christians, that may count against you and I don't like to think my challenges to all who teach false theories, have caused them to fall in brotherly love.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

The rapture, like so many other subjects, highlights something that I have believed for a number of years. It is that people with greater minds than mine (I consider myself reasonably intelligent) have argued these matters in great detail and cannot provide a convincing argument that proves the other is wrong, although many of them claim to. Often both sides think they have proved the other wrong but someone with an open mind can see both sides of the argument.

I now tend to try to understand both sides of the argument and accept that we don't know these things for sure. To presume that we are right and everyone who disagrees with us is wrong is very presumptuous and judgmental. It is good to be knowledgeable about these things but I dont think it is wise to take the position that we are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. It gives the impression of pride. We will know all things when we get to heaven. I have learned to be patient and wait until then.

We do of course need to be wary of false teaching though!!!

 

[keras]

No Gentile of any nation is a part of the 10 ethnic tribes of Israel as the movempireement claims
Not in the past, and not today

This contradicts 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1, also Amos 9:9
Josephus, writing 100 AD, said: the 10 tribes remain scattered around the world and are beyond numbering.

SS, you hate, and that isn't too strong a word, the truth of how we Christians are the Israel of God.
It destroys the rapture to heaven of the Church theory. Tough!

 

[Straightshot]

"SS, you really must try to read what the Bible actually says, or be laughed at for your unscriptural comments, as above"


The One who laughs is watching you son

Psalms
2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.