Again, Christ is telling the "churches" that every eye shall see him.
I'm missing where you see, churches, plural.
In the Western, democratic countries, such as my own; New Zealand, the 'rapture to heaven' theory is quite prevalent. But where Christians have persecution, then no; they reject that pretentious idea.I wonder if other places on this planet where Christians are being persecuted in an extremely harsh manner, if any of them think the GT has not begun yet? Also, why didn't a secret rapture deliver them from things like this before it ever got that bad for them? Or is that only meaning in the USA, that a secret rapture will deliver Christians in this country before it ever gets to a level like that, where they might chop off your head for being a Christian?
A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured". The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.
The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.
They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.
The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.
Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos. If you go to a dispensationalist church, the people may hand you an armload of books to read about dispensationalist doctrines. They will invite you to sit through their biased Bible studies and maybe have you watch dispensationalist teachers on videos or in conferences. They will use all kinds of sophistry in their sermons. They will take scriptures out of context and make them infer a meaning that simply isn’t there. They will say that you are not a "Bible-believer" if you refuse to believe in dispensationalism. They will also tell you that you have to, "rightly divide the word of truth" as if the scriptures will lead you to dispensationalist conclusions. Then they may send more books home with you to read. If you remain unconvinced, they may berate you, and maybe even call you a heretic and will consign you to the hell they think is to come onto the earth.
All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.
No it doesn't but some people's religious training can almost make them think that way. I had an elder of a strong evangelical church once tell me as a teenager asking if I really thought I was saved because I didn't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. (I did believe in Pre-Wrath though and that was before books came out a few years later saying the same)And most people have no clue what a heresy is - it’s not any doctrine that one disagrees with - it’s the denial of essential core beliefs in Christianity: His virgin birth, His sinless life, His death on a cross in our place, and His bodily resurrection from the dead after three days.
Dispensationalism, and pretrib rapture don’t qualify as heresy.
Shalom.
But the rapture...it's not for me, it to sensational, and grandiose, and when that happens it usually turns out to be false...IMHO.
I'm not Pre-Trib but Pre-Wrath....similar in a way...takes place before the wrath of God. But why too sensational and grandiose? Because it seems strange or unusual? We do read that Enoch was caught away and Elijah taken up in a fiery chariot. So why would you not think this possible for today?
The whole notion of the Rapture only came about in the early 1800s. How many Second Comings are there. IMHO it is part of the health and wealth gospel, where people think we shouldn't have to suffer through the tribulation. Jesus suffered, why shouldn't we?
Millions have been killed for their Christian faith.They were individuals, (2) since creation, not untold millions just disappearing, seems different to be.
No it doesn't but some people's religious training can almost make them think that way. I had an elder of a strong evangelical church once tell me as a teenager asking if I really thought I was saved because I didn't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. (I did believe in Pre-Wrath though and that was before books came out a few years later saying the same)
I mean can one imagine the thief on the cross asking for mercy and have Jesus say, "All depends. Do you believe in a Pre-Trib rapture?"
Millions have been killed for their Christian faith.
Why do people today think they will be exempted?
When the test comes, we must stand strong in our faith. 1 Peter 4:12
I mean can one imagine the thief on the cross asking for mercy and have Jesus say, "All depends. Do you believe in a Pre-Trib rapture?"
While we do not know with 100% certainty if the Pre-Trib Rapture is visible for all to see or secret, the idea that believers vanish is definitely within the realm of possibility. For one, Jesus said this:
“For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25).
In other words, we will receive the body like that of angels in the Rapture. Angels can appear to be invisible to other people. The donkey had seen the angel of the Lord but Balaam did not initially see the angel until later (See: Numbers 22:22-31).
The apostle Paul says,
“There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.”
(1 Corinthians 15:44).
Paul also says,
“It is sown a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.”
(1 Corinthians 15:44).
Paul also says,
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,...” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54).
Nothing is said as to whether unbelievers will hear the trumpet call or not. But it definitely is possible that they may hear something but they will not know exactly what it is.
For example, we read in Scripture:
“Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.” (John 12:28-30).
In this instance some people heard God speak but they thought it was an angel speaking. Other people heard what they thought was the sound of thunder. Is it possible that the same thing could happen with the noise of the trumpet during the rapture? I would say, “yes.” It certainly is a possibility. People may hear a noise during the Rapture, but they may have no idea what it was. Notice what other men had heard during Saul's encounter with Christ whereby the Lord Jesus spoke to Saul (Paul) while others were with him.
“And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (Acts of the Apostles 22:6-9).
Is it possible that Jesus coming down to meet believers in the air is only visible to the body of believers that meet Him?
Well, Jesus was able to vanish in the crowd
“...but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” (John 8:59).
Jesus disappears in front of his disciples.
“And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.” (Luke 24:30-31).So yes. The Pre-Trib Rapture can most definitely be a secret from the rest of the unbelieving world. For there is nothing in Scripture stating the Rapture event must be visible and clearly heard by unbelievers.
I hope this helps, and may God bless you.
an individual local church, like the church at Ephesus, instead of referring to the entire body of Christ as a whole. When John wrote and talked about churches he was referring to specific churches in specific towns rather than the church as a whole institution. Paul was more likely to use church in a big institutional sense.I'm not sure what you mean by congregation.
I know what you mean. It reminds me of Paul who prayed to have the "thorn" in his life removed.
Part of my reasoning is the character of God Himself. His sense of justice. the unbelieving world won't be left in the dark as to why they're experiencing the trumpets and bowls, they will know and Revelation confirms this in the passages I gave where people curse God and hide themselves from the face of God
You said:I think Revelation 6:12-17, giving the cosmic signs always connected with the day of the Lord, is that moment when every eye sees Him. The first 5 seals? All that's done by men, God is just removing seals that prevented those things from happening on their own but without God restraining them, they were always going to happen, because men are wicked, and all 5 of the results of the first 5 seals are actions performed by men. It's only seals 6 and beyond that are direct supernatural actions, "acts of God".
When Jesus is on the mount of olives and Armageddon later, every eye won't be seeing Him. Not even through technology, as there are isolated tribes which do not have the technology to watch a broadcast. So no, I don't see Revelation 19 as the "coming in the clouds with power and great glory" and I don't see Revelation 19 as "every eye shall see Him"
You said:I see it at the sixth seal, If he's in the sky, and the sun and moon are darkened and the stars aren't giving their light, then Jesus is the only thing in the sky to see, and he'd be visible world wide over the course of a day.
That's overt, and even just seeing Jesus sitting on a throne in the clouds, people will KNOW that they have been wrong all this time, and KNOW that they have been wicked, and KNOW that they're about to be judged and found guilty.
It fits the justice of the Lord for everyone to know why He is judging them a lot better than a poof with man coming up with their own explanations.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
So something I want to point out since again this isn't a debate about rapture TIMING but about how the rapture manifests.
It's come up a few times from apparently post trib that it's unbiblical that those raptured go to heaven.
In Revelation 6:9-11, there are people's SOULS in heaven. But John makes the distinction, that they do not have bodies.
In Revelation 7:9-17 there are PEOPLE in heaven, and they have body parts, and are doing things that require bodies to do, like wearing clothes and holding objects in their hands, and God wiping away tears from their eyes. They are not said to be souls, so it is a valid interpretation to believe that these are people who have been resurrected or raptured and are in heaven in bodies.
similarly Revelation 15:2, people having come out of the Great Tribulation, in heaven, holding objects (something you need a body for)
So there is biblical support for people being in heaven after the resurrection/rapture.
I can also understand a post trib position of interpreting Jesus' prayer in John 17
So there is also a verse that supports not going to heaven, and I can understand your interpretation despite my own position.
So with both positions having a biblical foundation, the difference between whether the rapture takes people to heaven or not, is not a matter of either position being unbiblical.
What we should all agree on however, is that the saints are caught up to the Earth's atmosphere first.
and that right there should preclude the popular "poof" manifestation.
I think the unbeliever's knowledge in the End Times will be limited still. Why? Can they actually believe they can stop the Creator of the Universe? They apparently think they can because they wage war against Him.
I agree that Luke 21:27 happens in the Middle of the Tribulation before God pours out His Wrath upon the Earth.
As for every eye shall see Him:
Well, I am not dogmatic on when that will happen. It could happen when Jesus reveals Himself in the middle of the Tribulation, or it may happen at His Second Coming.
It certainly is possible, but it could happen either way. I will let the Lord decide on that one. Nothing is concrete and set in stone on this point. It does make logical sense, but then, the Lord could just as easily show they are wrong when they stand at the Judgment. Remember, God wants faith, too. In Revelation 9:21, they still are not repenting of their sins (even after all the bad stuff is happening). God wants them to repent and so faith would be a necessary component of that. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. God is giving them one last chance to repent. Yes, I believe the Lord will be seen by the wicked in the middle of the Tribulation, but will it be all people? Only the Lord truly knows. I tend to lean that every eye will see Him at His Second Coming. Because at that point. It's too late. No more repenting. He is coming to bring justice. No more faith because He will reveal Himself to all. But again, I could be wrong, and it could play out like you say, too. We just don't know. That is why I am not dogmatic when it comes to Eschatology. I believe the most important thing we should know about Eschatology is being ready for our Lord spiritually. We should be looking any day or hour for His return like a good watchman. The later Eschatological viewpoints other than the Pre-Trib Rapture seems to run against me being ready (living holy now) and looking for my Lord at any day or hour. We must ready. We must looking and watching. That does not sound like it fits the later viewpoints. For if we say the Lord delays His coming, we can begin to beat our fellow servants.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
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