What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

[iamlamad]

seal not the sayings of -this book
John was being told as to the writings found in the little book that he ate.
If take away the words -from this prophecy - See how it refers to -one holy city.
Revelation does not have only one holy city told about in it.

Revelation 10 shows that when the mystery of God ends/with the 7th trumpet, then
it must end as was foretold -in the manner written by the prophets. The prophets told how that time of great tribulation will end early. God will see how the power in the holy land is gone - as shown also in Daniel 12 - and repent of some of the evil that was to come.

This is not the same section where the time when He won't call any of it back happens.
The vials will be poured out - as -It is done.

Revelation has several sections - the time of shortly come to pass, the time of see things -for hereafter - and the mystery of God ends-and the time of It is done -seal not the sayings of this book

The mystery of God is as to how John had to jumble parts of Revelation around as they were not for his day. That mystery of God section of visions ends with the 7th trumpet sounding.

Revelation 7 - begins a new vision that also showed events of the great tribulation.
Rev. 8 - time of silence -for after the harvest
and the return of the Rev. 7 sealing/stood before God/were given trumpets and sounded them -set of seven angels.

John did NOT "jumble things around." He wrote it exactly in the order that he SAW and HEARD.

 

[iamlamad]

the time of the song of redemption in Rev. 5 is -when Jesus Christ redeemed the
saved souls from paradise to heaven to await His return one day for the entire
church/dead and alive

He will bring the sleeping souls from heaven with Him.
The dead in Christ shall rise first, then the alive that remained get caught up.

After the harvest, will be a time of silence - as Isaiah 18 told that God will rest and
consider -in His dwelling place. God will then call forth the set of seven angels for a new job - the pouring out of the vials of His wrath on the wicked.

6th seal - rapture
7th seal - time of silence
the return of the seven angels/that had earlier stood before God in Rev. 7

6th seal - rapture - Agreed.
7th seal - time of silence - as the official start of the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[iamlamad]

The 24 elders are what Paul referred to as -the elect angels - that we are charged before.
They will give up their seats after the 7th trumpet sounds.
Jesus Christ is coming back as exalted alone!
He will be seen seated at the right hand of God coming with great power and glory!
The wicked will hide in the rocks in fear!
6th seal!

"The 24 elders are what Paul referred to as -the elect angels - that we are charged before." Can you PROVE this by scripture? Or is this just more human reasoning?

"He will be seen seated at the right hand of God" Stephen SAW Him there (standing) nearly 2000 years ago. He ascended TO BE at the right hand of the Father.

This is what makes chapter 4 so interesting: John did NOT see Him there.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

lamad, you are misunderstanding why they did not see Jesus. And the throne of God. God exists outside of creation. Which everything that is not God - is creation.

The throne of God is where God manifest Himself to creation. Which the throne of God would be veiled in blinding light.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

They could not see Jesus because he was within the blinding light.

The 24 elders were in the throne room when Jesus came forth from the blinding light of the throne and appeared in their midst. Jesus was there in heaven, because no-one precedes to heaven before Jesus.
________________________________________________

Jesus is the Lord of Heaven, and created everything. Coming forth from the Father is way of saying that God came forth from Himself, in a form that all He was to create could perceive Him.

The throne of God is where God enters creation, in perceptible form.
__________________________________________________________

lamad, the whole problem is that you are not visualizing the throne of God the right way.

Col 1
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

This passage is sort of played out in rev 4 and 5. We see those who have been redeemed by Jesus praising Him. We see that the purpose of creation is for the Son to take the place of preeminence. This is over every power and principality. The seals that Jesus took and opened are the victory over sin and death and it all goes back to Genesis where the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. These seals are the beginning of the end and at the end the serpent's head or authority. Then Jesus when He comes brings this authority and preeminence as He rules the nations and His kingdom covers the earth and has no end. At the end of the 1000 years this kingdom does not end it just moves to new Jeruslaem.

 

[iamlamad]

2Thessalonians2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Remember, we are talking of TWO PARTS of the Godhead. One can of course be seen: Abraham saw Him. Has anyone ever seen the Face of the Father? I think not.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi iamlamad,

The predominate aim of Father God, (as through out His Word) is to reveal, unveil His Son as He is known in the heavenly realms. Rev 4 - 7, reveal the Son as the Heir of the world, and given His inheritance by the Father.

The Son is seen enthroned in the highest realm of God`s great kingdom. He is the pre-eminent one, the supreme Lord over all. The Father has brought His enemies to His footstool and ready for His Son to begin operating in His authority and power to put down all rule under His feet.

This time is soon approaching and what a glorious day that will be for the Body of Christ to take part in that celebration of celebrations.

Marilyn.

This is good, but it does not answer my post. Thanks for trying.

 

[iamlamad]

The vision of chapter 4 and 5 has both God the Father and Jesus there. The worth of the one who was worthy to take the scroll from the hand of him who was on the throne is climactic. The declaration that he was worthy is the main point and that he had redeemed all those present by his blood. The prophecy to come is that those who were in heaven would rule and reign with Him. If you want to try to establish a time line John in Chapter one was told to record the things he had seen and that is chapter 1 then he was told to record the things that are and that is the letters to the 7 churches and finally he was told to record the things that will take place after this. Christ does not reign on earth until 42 month after the beast sets up the mark of the beast and the image. Note he persecutes the saints and they are said to live again and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. The 2nd coming is described plenty of places in the OT and if you look them all up you can see the LORD comes when Jerusalem is being overrun and the saints and Jews persecuted. The kingdom when Christ reigns and Satan is bound will not look like anything we have seen in human history. There will be peace and righteousness in the earth. After the 1000 years is over Satan is released to deceive one last time and he musters an army that surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down from heaven and that is it.

Brian, if you look hard - very hard - you cannot see the Son in chapter 4. He only shows up in chapter 5. Many people imagine He is the one on the throne. No, He ascended to be at the right hand of the power on the throne: Father God.

How would YOU tell the story? God wanted to show John the book - but He chose to show John a time while the book was still in the hand of the Father - before Jesus ascended. Can you not see this?

 

[_Dave_]

Most scholars agree that the seven-sealed scroll represents the title deed to the earth purchased by Jesus and paid for by his death on the cross.

It exists in heaven and is being held in the right hand of God, awaiting the events of Rev. 5.

In your "timeline" theory, how could the title deed exist -- signed, sealed and delivered -- if the events of Christ's passion had not already occurred?

I answer your ad on Craig's list and come to your house to buy your car. You are holding the pink slip. I say, "Fine, sell me your car." You tell me, "Sorry, I haven't purchased it yet." I say, "But you are holding the pink slip." You say, "Well, that hasn't happened yet. We need to go back into the past and wait for it to happen." I say, "Then why did you put the ad in Craig's list?" You say, "It's a timeline thing that nobody else understands, but I do."

LOL. Makes my brain hurt.

 

[iamlamad]

@iamlamad Oddly I was thinking of something perhaps similar. In order for forgiveness or indeed prophecy to be possible, there must be a recursive nature to time, something less fragmentary might be helpful at any rate. Perhaps a bit like that Star Trek episode Time's Arrow.

Have you never told a story of the past? It is a simple concept.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

This is of course nothing but MYTH. John does not even get to the days of GT until after the warning given in chapter 14. And John FINALLY saw the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.[/QUOTE The seal judgments include persecution of the saints the method of them being killed is not given at that time. Rev 69 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. The whole period of the 7 years is the tribulation if you want to break it down and call the last judgements as great you are free to do so. I think from the way the world is set up we see an economic collapse that takes peace from the earth and it is a days wage for a quart of wheat and men are killing one another all over the world. Out of this chaos the New World Order is established as men would rather have martial law than anarchy. The worlds governments are bankrupt and a collapse the banking system would bring in exactly these conditions. Note that the beast declares himself as a god and has lying signs and wonders too and this is with 42 months to go. This will be no picnic in the park from the beginning of these days onward.

 

[iamlamad]

Most scholars agree that the seven-sealed scroll represents the title deed to the earth purchased by Jesus and paid for by his death on the cross.

It exists in heaven and is being held in the right hand of God, awaiting the events of Rev. 5.

In your "timeline" theory, how could the title deed exist -- signed, sealed and delivered -- if the events of Christ's passion had not already occurred?

I answer your ad on Craig's list and come to your house to buy your car. You are holding the pink slip. I say, "Fine, sell me your car." You tell me, "Sorry, I haven't purchased it yet." I say, "But you are holding the pink slip." You say, "Well, that hasn't happened yet. We need to go back into the past and wait for it to happen." I say, "Then why did you put the ad in Craig's list?" You say, "It's a timeline thing that nobody else understands, but I do."

LOL. Makes my brain hurt.

You are too funny! It is not that difficult! The earth lease was most likely a document created in heaven after Adam fell. It was sealed up with seven seals. It was and is a LEGAL document created in the throne room of heaven. Apparently written on the outside was WHO would be worthy to open the seals. It is common sense that God the Father could not open the seals. The book with 7 seals HAD TO WAIT for the Redeemer. ONLY the Redeemer could be worthy to open the seals. Therefore it would be illegal for God the Father to begin the church (seal 1) before that seal was officially opened by the Redeemer.

The goal is to get the book opened so that the Trumpet judgments could begin, so that FINALLY the 7th trumpet could sound that would END Satan's reign as god of this world.

When the time finally came that the SON became the Redeemer, by finally rising from the dead, defeating death, He then was worthy to take the book, which is what we see in chapter . He rose from the dead - was immediately found worthy - was seen ascending into the throne room - then immediately got the book and began opening the seals.

 

[iamlamad]

The seal judgments...

Sorry, the seals are NOT JUDGMENTS. AT the 5th seal the martyrs of the church age are crying out for judgment to begin: asking how long is it going to be before Judgment begins. (It begins at the 6th seal)
Seal 1: the church sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2, 3, 4: Satan's feeble attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth.
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age
Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord
Seal 7: the official start of the 70th week.
1st trumpet tells us the BOOK is now opened.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The 24 elders are what Paul referred to as -the elect angels - that we are charged before.
They will give up their seats after the 7th trumpet sounds.
Jesus Christ is coming back as exalted alone!
He will be seen seated at the right hand of God coming with great power and glory!
The wicked will hide in the rocks in fear!
6th seal!

Hello vin.......the wicked 1st century rebellious Jews and their Religious Rulers were condemned to wrath along with the "Daughters of Jerusalem.
All fulfilled in the 1st century as prophecied by Jesus, James, Peter, Paul and OT Prophets......

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luke 23:27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieved and wailed over Him.
28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem no be lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.

1Th 2:16 - forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Revelation 6:
16 - and they said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 - “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
========================================
REVELATION 9:6 'MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM"
the men shall seeking the death

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Sorry, the seals are NOT JUDGMENTS. AT the 5th seal the martyrs of the church age are crying out for judgment to begin: asking how long is it going to be before Judgment begins. (It begins at the 6th seal)
Seal 1: the church sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2, 3, 4: Satan's feeble attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth.
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age
Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord
Seal 7: the official start of the 70th week.
1st trumpet tells us the BOOK is now opened.

I disagree with you as Daniel 9 speaks of the the 70 7's and both Dan 7 and Rev 13 show something significant happening with 42 months or a times times and half a time to go. Dan 9 clearly speaks of the middle of the week being when the sacrifice is stopped. The Rider on the white horse is before chapter 13 and is speaking about the prince to come confirming a covenant with the many for one week. This whole thing takes place in these 7 years.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I disagree with you as Daniel 9 speaks of the the 70 7's and both Dan 7 and Rev 13 show something significant happening with 42 months or a times times and half a time to go. Dan 9 clearly speaks of the middle of the week being when the sacrifice is stopped. The Rider on the white horse is before chapter 13 and is speaking about the prince to come confirming a covenant with the many for one week. This whole thing takes place in these 7 years.

Jerusalem was trampled by both the Jewish Rebels and Romans for 42 months...........

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling <3961> forty two months.

Revelation 14:20 -
And the wine-press was trampled<3961> outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.
============================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>


http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
========================

 

[_Dave_]

Brian, if you look hard - very hard - you cannot see the Son in chapter 4. He only shows up in chapter 5. Many people imagine He is the one on the throne. No, He ascended to be at the right hand of the power on the throne: Father God.

No imagining needed. Christ is very much viewed in Chapter 4.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

Who is the voice of the trumpet?

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, ...​

Do I need to do an exposition of who is the Alpha and Omega? Or can you agree that it refers to Jesus?

So Jesus CLEARLY is the one calling John up to the throne room of God. And CLEARLY He must already be there in order to say "Come up hither, and I will shew ..."

Agreed?

 

[Douggg]

This is a lot of human reasoning. Did John see the throne in this vision?
YES! And He saw someone ON the throne.

Jesus said,

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

 

[iamlamad]

I disagree with you as Daniel 9 speaks of the the 70 7's and both Dan 7 and Rev 13 show something significant happening with 42 months or a times times and half a time to go. Dan 9 clearly speaks of the middle of the week being when the sacrifice is stopped. The Rider on the white horse is before chapter 13 and is speaking about the prince to come confirming a covenant with the many for one week. This whole thing takes place in these 7 years.

You can certainly disagree with the truth if you wish. The truth is, the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. What could be simpler?

I agree that "it" as in the 70th week will take 7 years. However, that 7 years will start with the 7th seal and go to the 7th vial. The seals are not a part of the week. They are sealing the book that contains the 70th week.

I agree: the event that stops the daily sacrifices will "mark" the exact midpoint of the week. I believe when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews, THAT MOMENT of that event will stop the daily sacrifices: the temple will have to be cleansed before sacrifices can resume. But the man of sin will turn into the Beast and there will be no time for cleansing.

Again I agree: Daniel twice and John 5 times told us the last half of the week will be 1260 days, or 42 months or 3.5 years. In Revelation the exact midpoint will be marked by the 7th trumpet. A few days before that, the man of sin will enter Jerusalem (11:1-2). He must be in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.

Just 3.5 days before he enters the temple, the two witnesses show up (11:3) and will then testify for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and will then be raised with ALL of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial.

You are pulling the rider on the white horse at the first seal out of its 1st century context! It is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. OF course that happened when Jesus ascended, circa 32 AD. Chapter 13 is the Beast revealed, NOT when He confirms the covenant. The covenant confirmed will probably be done in secret. But God will know and will open the 7th seal in heaven so all in heaven will know the 70th week has begun. Perhaps few if any on earth will know. However, for those that understand Revelation, when the first trumpet judgment hits, they will know the week has started.

This all goes back to chapters 4 & 5. When you miss the intent of the Author there, you will probably be wrong in most of the book. Chapters 4 & 5 establish the context and TIMING of the first seal to 32 AD when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus said,

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Things change with time. Now, with MANY believers in heaven, OF COURSE people have seen the Father, but not "face to face."

 

[iamlamad]

No imagining needed. Christ is very much viewed in Chapter 4.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

Who is the voice of the trumpet?

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, ...​

Do I need to do an exposition of who is the Alpha and Omega? Or can you agree that it refers to Jesus?

So Jesus CLEARLY is the one calling John up to the throne room of God. And CLEARLY He must already be there in order to say "Come up hither, and I will shew ..."

Agreed?

Sorry, that was a VOICE, not visual. And that was before the vision started. OF COURSE it was Jesus that called John up to heaven, around 95 AD. But we are more interested in the vision itself and what God's intent is in the vision.
Nice try, but you will have to do better.