What proof would you need? (2)

[Wiccan_Child]

You may have a point,... or not.

Well that certainly covers all bases

What we seem to have for sure is a very long and growing list of people of all types reporting almost identical stories.
This is akin to "peer review" in the sense that under the same "labatory conditions," i.e.; doctors present to confirm death, the same tunnel, white light, and a "gabriel" figure at the end appearing and talking to these people.

Allegedly. I'm sceptical that there really is such a "long and growing list", that these stories really are "almost identical", etc. For instance, what constitutes a 'Gabriel' figure? A figure unmistakably an angel? Which kind of angel? The winged, white-robed being of medieval art? The embodiment of inconspicuousness of guardian angels of New Age philosophy?

As I said, we all know how easy it is for the brain to be fooled, and a dying brain is more easily fooled than one working at peak efficiency, wouldn't you agree?

Even if we assume that NDEs occur with some regularity and consistency, and their cause isn't cultural (i.e., people don't see white light at the end of a tunnel because of cultural imprinting), there's rather a long way to go before the existence of anything supernatural can be inferred. There are any number of biological explanations - optical static, 'tunnel vision', a waking dream, the release of hitherto-controlled hormones by a dying brain - that satsifactorially explain NDEs as merely a biological by-product of a damaged cortex.

In other words, to conclude that there is some afterlife or other supernatural goings-on when there is little to no evidence is terrible science. As you yourself stated, there's little to no long-term or conclusive research in the area. This doesn't in any way allow people to say, "Oh, science hasn't disproven it, therefore I'm justified in believing it" - no, scepticism, especially in the face of no evidence, is the logical stance.

Dismissal is hardly a good scientific exercise, while opened mindedness is.

To paraphrase Tim Minchen, if you open your mind enough, your brain will fall out.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Maybe that is a portent of eternal nothingness and solitude awaiting non believers?

Nothingness awaits us all, old bean. Solitude assumes that one exists, but we won't. We includes you as well, by the way.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Near death experiences are something to do with high CO2 levels in the brain as it shuts down, I remember reading somewhere.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Nothingness awaits us all, old bean. Solitude assumes that one exists, but we won't. We includes you as well, by the way.

Do you have any proof or evidence of that?

 

[AV1611VET]

Now now AV; You cannot be serious if you are implying we rid ourselves of medicine! So we should get rid of doctors and hospitals and emergency services and let people be cured by prayer This confounds my sensibilities and is anathema to erudition and the achievements of man. If there is a God then suffice it to say he gave us a brain and inquisitive mind to solve problems and not to keep it closed in a cage.

I am totally flabbergasted when people insist that medicine is useless!

Will someone please beam me up; I need to vacate this planet.......

You don't have a clue as to what I said, do you?

Until the One comes back Who can put an end to all diseases, we are going to have diseases.

And since we are going to have diseases, we need to see doctors.

And if someone bows his head and prays that God cures or heals someone, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Herman Hedning]

I just read a book about miracles happaning with societies outcast. REMEBER,of those getting into rehabiltion for drugs or alchohol, those with dubble diagnoses, of those it goes well with, all of them had connection with a church! - And are no longer addicts! The others who didn't have connection with a church all of them relapsed.

80ies figures. Based upon interviews and so on.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I hope you are not saying all with church connections in that group did well, and all without such connections relapsed. Because if you are, then I believe the book you are talking about is not presenting unbiased data.

Ok, if the book is about "miracles", that alone likely makes it biased.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Do you have any proof or evidence of that?

I think the total dependency of states of consciousness/awareness on the activity of the human brain is rather compelling evidence.

I could write more about the way the mind works being specifically evolved to cater to your body, its needs, survival, etc and peculiarly unsuitable as an instrument for doing anything without a body, but that's getting a bit off the beaten track somewhat.

 

[Astridhere]

Chimps lack the vocal struture to talk the way we do, but have been taught sign language.

My dog can do better as he understands language without the need to sign. He understands find the ball, fetch the ball, No, go get your lead, going for a walk, let's play, attack, dinner time, he recogonises names etc. My dog also understands some signs. Are you suggesting my dog has sophisticated language skills?

Parrots can also be trained to talk. Are you suggesting parrots have sophisticated language skills?

There were huge problems with the research done into ape language abilities and perhaps you had best be made aware of them instead of clinging to glossy headlines.

"Then comes the epilogue. When the experiment was over, a grad student working on a thesis did a frame-by-frame analysis of the training, and found that the ape was no dope. If he wanted a banana, he'd produce a sequence of irrelevant signs and throw in the sign for banana randomly, figuring that he'd brainwashed the experimenters sufficiently so that they'd think he was saying "give me a banana." And he was able to pick out subtle motions by which the experimenters indicated what they'd hope he'd do. Final result? Exactly what any sane biologist would have assumed: zero. Then comes the sad part. Chimps can get pretty violent as they get older, so they were going to send him to chimp heaven. But the experimenters had fallen in love with him, and tried hard to save him. He was finally sent off to some sort of chimp farm, where he presumably died peacefully -- signing the Lord's Prayer in his last moments."

On the Myth of Ape Language, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Matt Aames Cucchiaro



Upon reviewing the tapes. Terrace found that only 12% of Nim's signs were spontaneous and a full 40% were mere repetitions of what the trainer had just signed. This subtle interaction was never noticed by the trainer at the time. In addition, Nim's signing was invariably a request for food or social reward; he never made unsolicited statements or asked questions. Quite unlike a human child, he never took turns and was more likely to interrupt his trainer's signing than not. There was also no evidence that Nim knew any grammar. His combinations had variable word order, and more importantly, Nim rarely went beyond two-word combinations; even when he did, the additional signs added no new information. For example, Nim's longest utterance was give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you.

Terrace called into question the results of all previous experiments. He reviewed tapes of Washoe and Koko that had been made for a PBS special and concluded that they too had been cued by their trainers. He and others leveled even more serious criticisms of the Premack project,arguing that the training procedure taught problem solving and not language, and that Premack's conclusions were not well founded, given his experimental design and his results.

Animal Communication

We all know animals communicate with each other in their own way. However this does not constitute sophisticated language and higher reasoning ability, the hallmarks of mankind, and one would be silly to suggest any such comparison.

 

[mzungu]

Animal Communication

We all know animals communicate with each other in their own way. However this does not constitute sophisticated language and higher reasoning ability, the hallmarks of mankind, and one would be silly to suggest any such comparison.

I can bet you a year's salary that chimps will outdo you every time in optical memory tests. Perhaps if you stopped using creationist cartoon science then you may, just may be able to learn something!
Man Vs Chimp - memory test - YouTube

 

[mzungu]

You don't have a clue as to what I said, do you?

Until the One comes back Who can put an end to all diseases, we are going to have diseases.

And since we are going to have diseases, we need to see doctors.

And if someone bows his head and prays that God cures or heals someone, there's nothing wrong with that.

No there is nothing wrong with praying as it is a positive thing psychologically both for the patient and for the loved ones. If you did not mean we should rid ourselves of doctors then my apologies for the misunderstanding

 

[SkyWriting]

No there is nothing wrong with praying as it is a positive thing psychologically both for the patient and for the loved ones. If you did not mean we should rid ourselves of doctors then my apologies for the misunderstanding

It's lazy Doctors likely causing the fuss:
Poll: Doctors believe in miracles

 

[Astridhere]

msungu..you appear to be one of those evolutionists that simply cannot deal with the findings of your own science.

There is a stack of prattle about memory and I do not need to set up expensive experiments to discern that my dog resists and causes a fuss every time we go to the vet because he 'remembers' this is nearly always a bad experience eg needles. Is that memory or inate learning by experience? Who cares? The point is by your own evolutionary findings mankind is smarter than an ape. Do you for some reason care to refute your researchers?

Because a trapieze circus performer can likely do more tricks swinging around on ropes than an ape, would you suggest apes arboreal abilities are shared with mankind also? Let's really get down to some real straw grabbing here!

Are you evolutionists now trying to dispute your own researchers in suggesting that sophisticated language is solely a human trait that is also reflected in the human FOXP2 gene dated to 200,000 years ago by your very own researchers?

I am happy for you to disagree with your own evo researchers because I also think they are all a bunch of boofheads.

 

[CabVet]

No there is nothing wrong with praying as it is a positive thing psychologically both for the patient and for the loved ones. If you did not mean we should rid ourselves of doctors then my apologies for the misunderstanding

Did someone say placebo effect?

 

[AV1611VET]

If you did not mean we should rid ourselves of doctors then my apologies for the misunderstanding

Don't make me call you a 'newbie' --

Howdy, sis!

We need to remember that Jesus said:

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

There's more to this statement than meets the eye.

Notice that Jesus said that those who are sick need a physician.

Now Jesus, of course, is the Great Physician, but we also need to keep in mind that God delegates His work to His Creation.

Remember the parable of the 10 pounds, starting in Luke 19:11?

Yes, doctors make mistakes, but we need to keep in mind that they are God's gifts to us as well, and we need to pray for them that God will open their eyes to see clearly enough to make the right diagnoses and prescribe the correct medications to their patients!

I hope this helped!

Didn't Jesus tell us we need doctors?

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

Please answer this -- preferably with only a YES or NO.

And speaking of Luke, here's a simple Bible question:

What does the Bible refer to Luke as?

You can ignore this post, like everyone else does -- and, unfortunately, I expect you to; but one thing you won't do, is fool us into feeling guilty that we go to doctors.

 

[Astridhere]

Cabvet..have you managed to work out what is or isn't a creationist site yet? For example are you convinced that Nature is not a creationist site or are you still having difficulty?

 

[Astridhere]

Did someone say placebo effect?

Indeed the placebo effect is testimony to just how little is known about the power of faith and how healing faith actually is. I would say that one in three cited improvements due to placebo effect alone is a strong indicator as to just how strong faith is. The bible also agrees that faith is powerful. I would say research into placebo affects supports biblical assertions that faith has power and can heal, just as the Creator asserts in the bible and is supported inadvertently by your very own researchers.

 

[mzungu]

Don't make me call you a 'newbie' --

I grow old learning!

 

[mzungu]

msungu

I am happy for you to disagree with your own evo researchers because I also think they are all a bunch of boofheads.

Chill out sheila and laugh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeKSiCQkPw&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nGeKSiCQkPw

 

[SkyWriting]

Did someone say placebo effect?

That doesn't explain the Physicians views on miracles.

 

[Astridhere]

msungu ..thanks for your permission to laugh.