What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[keras]

-7th seal (same day as the 6th), Jesus on Earth, descends on Mount of Olives, but then goes South to Idumea/Edom

The Sixth and Seventh Seals cannot be when Jesus Returns, as they must be opened for the scroll to be opened.
They will be the next prophesied events for the world, commencing all the Prophesied end time events.

the Capital of Mystery Babylon is nuked by the 10 Kings (only way that men can destroy a city in fire in one hour and Revelation 17 tells us its the 10 Kings that do it)

This will happen at the Sixth Seal and the Lord will do it by sending a huge mass exploded out from the sun.

-Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven

The only 'people' in heaven are the souls of all the martyrs. Rev 6"9-11 God allows then to cry out at times.
Jesus will bring the souls of those martyrs killed during the final 42 months and will resurrect them. Rev 20:4

 

[Jamdoc]

The Sixth and Seventh Seals cannot be when Jesus Returns, as they must be opened for the scroll to be opened.
They will be the next prophesied events for the world, commencing all the Prophesied end time events.

The scroll is revealed as each seal is removed rather than all at once. So no. the first 5 seals are events that men cause, the 6th and 7th are on the Son of Man.

This will happen at the Sixth Seal and the Lord will do it by sending a huge mass exploded out from the sun.

Revelation 17 says it is the 10 kings that destroy Babylon and burn it with fire. God put it into their minds, but it is men that do it. Men can't cause CME's or anything like that. Men have 1 means to destroy a large city in a single hour with fire.

The only 'people' in heaven are the souls of all the martyrs. Rev 6"9-11 God allows then to cry out at times.
Jesus will bring the souls of those martyrs killed during the final 42 months and will resurrect them. Rev 20:4

Revelation 19 has saints in heaven. Read the text.

 

[Douggg]

-70th week begins, first 1260 days are a false messianic period, the temple is built sacrifices resume in Jerusalem, 2 witnesses ministry begins
-Around the midpoint of the 70th week, the war in heaven, Satan cast down, Antichrist turns on Jerusalem, Jerusalem is invaded, Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God, Abomination of Desolation is set up.
.narrow-sky-1-multi-715{border:none !important;display:block !important;float:none !important;line-height:0px;margin-bottom:15px !important;margin-left:auto !important;margin-right:auto !important;margin-top:15px !important;max-width:100% !important;min-height:250px;min-width:250px;padding:0;text-align:center !important;width:100%;} -second 1260 days begin the Great Tribulation, 5th seal, mark of the beast

This line of yours should be annotated as "day 1".

day 1 -70th week begins, first 1260 days are a false messianic period, the temple is built sacrifices resume in Jerusalem, 2 witnesses ministry begins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at another one of your lines...

"Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God, Abomination of Desolation is set up."

Instead, break it up into two different lines....

day unknown- Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God. The Transgression of Desolation act.

day 1185 - Abomination of Desolation is setup. 1335 days before Jesus returns on day 2520 (the last day of the 70th week)

The great tribulation begins on day 1185 when the Abomination of Desolation is setup. "-second 1260 days begin the Great Tribulation,"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's look at another line...

"Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven (Revelation 19), Battle of Armageddon."

annotate that one as day 2520 (the last day of the 70th week)

day 2520 - Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven (Revelation 19), Battle of Armageddon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamdoc, redo/rearrange your list with those modifications and see what it looks like.

 

[Jamdoc]

This line of yours should be annotated as "day 1".

day 1 -70th week begins, first 1260 days are a false messianic period, the temple is built sacrifices resume in Jerusalem, 2 witnesses ministry begins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at another one of your lines...

"Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God, Abomination of Desolation is set up."

Instead, break it up into two different lines....

day unknown- Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God. The Transgression of Desolation act.

day 1185 - Abomination of Desolation is setup. 1335 days before Jesus returns on day 2520 (the last day of the 70th week)

The great tribulation begins on day 1185 when the Abomination of Desolation is setup. "-second 1260 days begin the Great Tribulation,"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's look at another line...

"Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven (Revelation 19), Battle of Armageddon."

annotate that one as day 2520 (the last day of the 70th week)

day 2520 - Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven (Revelation 19), Battle of Armageddon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamdoc, redo/rearrange your list with those modifications and see what it looks like.

The date that Jesus actually comes from heaven is an unknown date. Armageddon is a known date but Jesus has actually been on Earth for awhile prior to that.

That's where a lot of your confusion stems from, that you're not seeing that what I believe, is that Jesus returns to Earth before the very last day of the 70th week, He's on Earth, but does not re-enter Jerusalem until that last day.

and I believe that because of passages like Zechariah 9 which describe Him coming down blowing the trumpet, lifting up His people, and then going south with whirlwinds, Isaiah 34, describing the day of the Lord coming, and then the Lord going on a slaughter in Idumea, and Isaiah 63, describing Jesus coming from Edom, not heaven.

This whole thing centers on the 2nd coming not being Revelation 19. as long as you see Jesus coming from heaven to Earth in Revelation 19, we're not going to be even looking at the same thing.

and that in part, is fueled by the belief that the 70th week of Daniel is a "7 year tribulation" so Jesus returns after "the 7 year tribulation", and they'll point at Revelation 19.
It's something that's been taught for hundreds of years, maybe even thousands of years.

But the question that came to mind that "aha"'ed a lot for me is where was John when he saw this, was he on Earth looking up at the heavens opening, or was he in heaven looking down when they opened?

He's in heaven, all the things he is witnessing were taking place in heaven, and other details stood out, like they only worship God on the throne, not the lamb with Him.

Revelation 5

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 8

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Where's the Lamb?

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Where's the Lamb?

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

See when the person of Jesus is present and involved, they include Him separately. It doesn't work that "well they say God and Jesus is God so mentioning God is mentioning Jesus. They specify God on the Throne or God as God the Father, and use the terms the Lamb, the Son of Man, Christ, or use the name Jesus to specify Jesus, God the Son.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

The 24 Elders are in heaven, they worship God the Father, but Jesus is on Earth, and so they are not directly worshiping Jesus the way they worship God the Father in person at that time.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This is one of the most.. mysterious passages in Revelation for me, because it precedes the Son of Man being on the clouds which comes later in the chapter, and it speaks of them being redeemed FROM the Earth, and following the Lamb, who then proceeds to be on the clouds later in the chapter, and these are described as the first fruits, and it reminds me of something Jesus said, about the last being first.
Do these.. 144,000, come up to heaven first before anyone else, and come back down early? There is a confliction with this idea.. it would explain the 5th trumpet where the angels cannot hurt the 144,000 sealed, but it would go against Isaiah 63 where Jesus said He was alone treading the winepress of His wrath.
But anyway, point stands.. when Jesus the person is involved they do specify both God AND the Lamb/Son of Man/Christ/Jesus.

continuing in Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

now .. here we come to a difference again

Revelation 15

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

No "and the lamb" or any other name that refers to the person of Christ.

Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

They worship God the Father.. but no "and the Lamb"


I'd argue from the 7th seal on, and from Revelation 14 on, the Lamb is not in Heaven, He had come to Earth (which is why the half hour of silence at the 7th seal).
Those in heaven Rejoice when God judges the wicked, they praise Him.
It's not the foreboding of judgement that causes silence, it is Jesus leaving Heaven.... at least that's my theory now.

 

[Douggg]

The date that Jesus actually comes from heaven is an unknown date. Armageddon is a known date but Jesus has actually been on Earth for awhile prior to that.

That day (not date) will be 7 years (2520 days) from day 1 to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem, splitting it in half.

We don't know "dates" , i.e. the day on a calendar, for any of the events. So we have to refer to events as what "day" on a 7 years (2520 days) timeline.

So, please refrain from saying "date" "dates".

That's where a lot of your confusion stems from, that you're not seeing that what I believe, is that Jesus returns to Earth before the very last day of the 70th week, He's on Earth, but does not re-enter Jerusalem until that last day.

So make a line like....

day 2520 - Jesus re-enters Jerusalem

 

[keras]

The scroll is revealed as each seal is removed rather than all at once

That is not how a scroll can be read. ALL the Seal must be removed before it can be unrolled.
You are guilty of shuffling Revelation to think otherwise.

Men have 1 means to destroy a large city in a single hour with fire.

The Sixth Seal will be a worldwide disaster. Jeremiah 25:30-33

Revelation 19 has saints in heaven. Read the text.

They are ALL the dead martyrs. YOU read the text- Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 19:1-6

 

[Jamdoc]

That is not how a scroll can be read. ALL the Seal must be removed before it can be unrolled.
You are guilty of shuffling Revelation to think otherwise.

The text presents it as things happening after each seal is loosed. Not as the seals are all loosed and after the 7th .. then things happen.

The Sixth Seal will be a worldwide disaster. Jeremiah 25:30-33

The sixth seal is not the destruction of Babylon, which comes after the 7 bowl, and Revelation 17 says it is the 10 kings that destroy it.
I'm at a loss of words, I thought you kept Revelation as being 100% Chronological start to finish even with baffling concepts such as Jesus giving control of the world back to Satan after the 7th trumpet.

They are ALL the dead martyrs. YOU read the text- Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 19:1-6

The text does not say they are dead or are souls. Revelation 6:9-11 does.

 

[keras]

The text presents it as things happening after each seal is loosed. Not as the seals are all loosed and after the 7th .. then things happen.

All the Seals tell of events which happen when those Seals are opened, We have had all the wars, famines and plagues, almost to the limit of endurance and obviously the Fifth Seal was opened too, in the first Century, with the thousands of early Church martyrs.
We await the Sixth Seal world changer and the Seventh Seal time gap.

The sixth seal is not the destruction of Babylon, which comes after the 7 bowl, and Revelation 17 says it is the 10 kings that destroy it.
I'm at a loss of words, I thought you kept Revelation as being 100% Chronological start to finish even with baffling concepts such as Jesus giving control of the world back to Satan after the 7th trumpet.

I see the destruction of 'Babylon', a metaphor for New York; as happening at the Sixth Seal. Rev 18 is a flashback.
Revelation 17, refers to the 'Babylon' of the Vatican, which the 'beast' will destroy.

Reading Revelation 13 makes it clear that Satan WILL gain control of the world, when he is thrown out of heaven; Revelation 12:7-17, for only 42 months. The Seventh Trumpet, Revelation 11:15-19 is a flash forward, as it prophesies the glorious Return of Jesus, bringing His rewards for His people, Matthew 16:27 and destroying all the ungodly peoples; Revelation 16:16-18

The text does not say they are dead or are souls. Revelation 6:9-11 does.

They all must be people killed for their faith. Only their souls are kept in heaven, they 'sleep' under the Altar, but God allows them to cry out at times.

 

[Jamdoc]

All the Seals tell of events which happen when those Seals are opened, We have had all the wars, famines and plagues, almost to the limit of endurance and obviously the Fifth Seal was opened too, in the first Century, with the thousands of early Church martyrs.
We await the Sixth Seal world changer and the Seventh Seal time gap.

Not what the text says

I see the destruction of 'Babylon', a metaphor for New York; as happening at the Sixth Seal. Rev 18 is a flashback.
Revelation 17, refers to the 'Babylon' of the Vatican, which the 'beast' will destroy.

Not what the text says

Reading Revelation 13 makes it clear that Satan WILL gain control of the world, when he is thrown out of heaven; Revelation 12:7-17, for only 42 months. The Seventh Trumpet, Revelation 11:15-19 is a flash forward, as it prophesies the glorious Return of Jesus, bringing His rewards for His people, Matthew 16:27 and destroying all the ungodly peoples; Revelation 16:16-18

Not what the text says, nowhere does the term "flash forward" apply in Revelation, people sure do like to use that term though.

They all must be people killed for their faith. Only their souls are kept in heaven, they 'sleep' under the Altar, but God allows them to cry out at times.

Not what the text says

 

[keras]

Not what the text says

With the first Five Seals, we have the historical record of all the terrible wars, the shocking famines and the devastating plagues. Plus the Christian martyrs since Stephen, all ample proof they are open now.

With the destruction of the great city of world commerce, that must happen as part of the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 14:14-16 It will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.

'flash forward' is a common term for when a narrative goes back or forward to fill in details pertaining to an earlier or later mentioned event. It is a perfectly accepted literary tool.

Re the martyrs: Read and inwardly digest Revelation 14:13

 

[Jamdoc]

With the first Five Seals, we have the historical record of all the terrible wars, the shocking famines and the devastating plagues. Plus the Christian martyrs since Stephen, all ample proof they are open now.

With the destruction of the great city of world commerce, that must happen as part of the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal. Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 14:14-16 It will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.

'flash forward' is a common term for when a narrative goes back or forward to fill in details pertaining to an earlier or later mentioned event. It is a perfectly accepted literary tool.

Re the martyrs: Read and inwardly digest Revelation 14:13

as I keep pointing out to you
the historicist view of the seals doesn't work
100% of people have historically died, not just 1/4.
and people were dying as martyrs long before Stephen.

It has nothing to do with history, it has everything to do with the end of the age.

as to babylon, read the text. Babylon comes into remembrance to the Lord after the 7th vial, at the end of the wrath of God, and the text explicitly states that the 10 kings are who destroy the harlot, the great city.

Why try to come up with your own explanations of things when the text outright says that the Kings make her desolate and naked and burn her with fire, then Revelation 18 proceeds to show the great city destroyed in a single hour by fire.
Don't force a division where there isn't one.

Babylon is destroyed by the 10 Kings, in 1 hour, by fire, after the 7th vial.
That's what the text says.

Revelation 16

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

I mean, you don't have to guess the meaning of symbols here. the bible explains itself.
There are 10 kings, they give their power to the beast, God puts into their minds to hate and destroy Babylon, they are the ones who carry it out, and it happens after the 7th vial when Babylon comes into remembrance to give the winecup of the fierceness of the wrath of God, but God uses the 10 Kings to do it.
That is what the text says.

It describes it in Revelation 18

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

and

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

These are the facts, spelled out in the text.

1. Babylon is a city that rules the world and controls all the kings of the world.
2. God puts it into the minds of 10 kings to give their power to the beast.
3. After the 7th vial of the wrath of God, God puts it into the minds of the 10 Kings to destroy Babylon
4. Babylon is destroyed by fire in 1 hour, by the 10 Kings.

Now, it's understandable to speculate if this is historic Babylon or Babylon used as a name for another city, and to try to identify the city, whether Rome, New York, Neom, etc, there's been many suggested identities, some believe it's the same site as the historic city of Babylon although the description of merchants moving goods to the city by ship makes the historic Babylon less likely as it's not coastal, it's far enough from the coast that people likely would not be able to see it burning from the sea either.

It's understandable to speculate how 10 Kings could destroy a great city with fire in an hour, as of right now the only technology capable of doing it is is nuclear weapons.

But you shouldn't dispute the facts which are.. the 10 kings destroy Babylon, Babylon is a great city that controls the world, and it happens after the 7th vial.

That's all facts in scripture. There's no way to argue around those.

That's the clear cut facts.

 

[Douggg]

the historicist view of the seals doesn't work
100% of people have historically died, not just 1/4.
and people were dying as martyrs long before Stephen.

It has nothing to do with history, it has everything to do with the end of the age.

Correct, the seals are end of the age events.

 

[Douggg]

These are the facts, spelled out in the text.

1. Babylon is a city that rules the world and controls all the kings of the world.
2. God puts it into the minds of 10 kings to give their power to the beast.
3. After the 7th vial of the wrath of God, God puts it into the minds of the 10 Kings to destroy Babylon
4. Babylon is destroyed by fire in 1 hour, by the 10 Kings.

Mistake being made above is that the great harlot = Mystery Babylon the Great. Not so. One is physically literal, the other a spiritual power. Two different entities, although one has influenced the other.

The great harlot is Vatican city state ruling power of the RCC. Vatican city state is associated with Rome. The ten kings ( of the EU kingdom of the beast) will destroy the Vatican city state, burn it to the ground

Mystery Babylon the Great....Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mystery Babylon the Great is the spiritual Kingdom of Satan and his angels. The fall of Babylon the Great in Revelation 18 is being compared to the fall of a literal real physical wealthy, trading city - as an analogy. In fulfillment, the terminal destruction of Babylon the Great begins when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth in the middle part of the 7 years.

The final blow will be the 7th vial of God's wrath in Revelation16:17-21.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

i.e. against Mystery Babylon the Great.

 

[Jamdoc]

Mistake being made above is that the great harlot = Mystery Babylon the Great. Not so. One is physically literal, the other a spiritual power. Two different entities, although one has influenced the other.

The great harlot is Vatican city state ruling power of the RCC. Vatican city state is associated with Rome. The ten kings ( of the EU kingdom of the beast) will destroy the Vatican city state, burn it to the ground

Mystery Babylon the Great....Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mystery Babylon the Great is the spiritual Kingdom of Satan and his angels. The fall of Babylon the Great in Revelation 18 is being compared to the fall of a literal real physical wealthy, trading city - as an analogy. In fulfillment, the terminal destruction of Babylon the Great begins when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth in the middle part of the 7 years.

Wrong.
the bible does not make such a division. That's you putting something into scripture to make Revelation 17 and 18 be about different things.
But that's not what scripture says.

What does the scripture say?

Revelation 17

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Okay, so, there's some symbols, how do we know they're symbols? Because the next verse:

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Here's a key concept to understanding Revelation, and Daniel.
If an angel who is doing so by commandment of Jesus, explains a symbol, that's the meaning of the symbol. Don't try to explain it yourself, it has been explained.
If it is NOT explained by Jesus, or an Angel, then consider if it is a reference to a symbol from previous scripture.
If it is NOT explained by Jesus or an Angel, and is NOT a reference to previous symbols in scripture, consider the plain literal meaning.

Here we are given multiple symbols, and the Angel lists the symbols that he will explain. We do not need to try to explain anything. The angel proceeds to explain the beast, the seven heads, and the 10 horns.
The beast is explained as someone who was, is not (currently dead or contained) and shall ascend. It is fair to speculate on what exactly that means I suppose.
The 7 heads are explained as 7 mountains on which the woman sits, mountains is a common symbol for a kingdom or king, and the angel does go on to explain it is 7 kings, which is often synonymous with kingdoms. The beast is explained to be the 8th of these kingdoms/kings, and is of the 7, so existed, was destroyed, then rose up again, whether it refers to the individual king, or just the kingdom, is I suppose, fair speculation, but the bible often treats it as synonymous.
The 10 horns are explained as 10 individual kings, who give power to the beast.

and the harlot, the woman.. is then explained

Revelation 17

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

No need to guess what the waters represent, the Angel says what they are, it's saying that the harlot controls peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, in other words, the world. The harlot controls the world.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why make up your own explanation? An angel explained what the woman is, it's a great city that rules over the world. Revelation 18 says the same thing. That Babylon is a great city. Why assume it's different things? The scripture does not say they are. The scripture is talking about the same thing all throughout the chapters. I don't know why people try to make this difficult when the bible explains its own symbols.

I suppose I get it. People want to read the Vatican into Revelation 17, but because it does not match Revelation 18, they stick with their interpretation of Revelation 17 and then force Revelation 18 to be about something different.

That's just being stubborn and not fessing up that reading Rome or the Vatican into Revelation 17 doesn't work because it does not fit Revelation 18.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong.
the bible does not make such a division. That's you putting something into scripture to make Revelation 17 and 18 be about different things.
But that's not what scripture says.

What does the scripture say?

Revelation 17


Okay, so, there's some symbols, how do we know they're symbols? Because the next verse:


Here's a key concept to understanding Revelation, and Daniel.
If an angel who is doing so by commandment of Jesus, explains a symbol, that's the meaning of the symbol. Don't try to explain it yourself, it has been explained.
If it is NOT explained by Jesus, or an Angel, then consider if it is a reference to a symbol from previous scripture.
If it is NOT explained by Jesus or an Angel, and is NOT a reference to previous symbols in scripture, consider the plain literal meaning.

Here we are given multiple symbols, and the Angel lists the symbols that he will explain. We do not need to try to explain anything. The angel proceeds to explain the beast, the seven heads, and the 10 horns.
The beast is explained as someone who was, is not (currently dead or contained) and shall ascend. It is fair to speculate on what exactly that means I suppose.
The 7 heads are explained as 7 mountains on which the woman sits, mountains is a common symbol for a kingdom or king, and the angel does go on to explain it is 7 kings, which is often synonymous with kingdoms. The beast is explained to be the 8th of these kingdoms/kings, and is of the 7, so existed, was destroyed, then rose up again, whether it refers to the individual king, or just the kingdom, is I suppose, fair speculation, but the bible often treats it as synonymous.
The 10 horns are explained as 10 individual kings, who give power to the beast.

and the harlot, the woman.. is then explained

Revelation 17

No need to guess what the waters represent, the Angel says what they are, it's saying that the harlot controls peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, in other words, the world. The harlot controls the world.



Why make up your own explanation? An angel explained what the woman is, it's a great city that rules over the world. Revelation 18 says the same thing. That Babylon is a great city. Why assume it's different things? The scripture does not say they are. The scripture is talking about the same thing all throughout the chapters. I don't know why people try to make this difficult when the bible explains its own symbols.

I suppose I get it. People want to read the Vatican into Revelation 17, but because it does not match Revelation 18, they stick with their interpretation of Revelation 17 and then force Revelation 18 to be about something different.

That's just being stubborn and not fessing up that reading Rome or the Vatican into Revelation 17 doesn't work because it does not fit Revelation 18.

The only linkage you have to base your position on is that the great harlot has the inscription upon her forehead - 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

"Babylon the great" term is not found anywhere else in Revelation 17, when it starts talking about the location of the woman, where she sits, and that the ten kings (who give their kingdom to the beast, verse 17), destroy the woman with fire.

You have made a mistake in understanding verse 5. Just as it would be a mistake to think that a person taking the name of the beast on their forehead or right hand, is the beast himself. No, having the written inscription means that the great harlot has been influenced by Babylon the Great, a spiritual power...... not that she herself is Babylon the Great.

Babylon the great is responsible for all that were slain upon the earth. The first person slain was Abel.

Mystery Babylon the Great....Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

The only linkage you have to base your position on is that the great harlot has the inscription on her head - 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

"Babylon the great" term is not found anywhere else in Revelation 17, when it starts talking about the location of the woman, where she sits, and that the ten kings (who give their kingdom to the beast, verse 17), destroy the woman with fire.

You have made a mistake in understanding verse 5. Just as it would be a mistake to think that a person taking the name of the beast on their forehead or right hand, is the beast himself. No, having the written inscription means that the great harlot has been influenced by Babylon the Great, a spiritual power...... not that she herself is Babylon the Great.

the Angel says that the woman is the great city that reigns over the Earth.
Revelation 18 explains a great city by which the merchants deceive the world and with which the kings fornicated, and it is called Babylon.

That's a lot of links man.

But on Revelation 17:5

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

The punctuation is not Mystery Babylon
it's Mystery,
Babylon the Great

So, it is Babylon the Great.
and the Angel explains that the woman is the great city
the Great city in Revelation 18 is... Babylon the Great.

But come, let's look back at verse 1 and 2 for a moment

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

So what's the point of what the angel is showing? To show the judgement.
Revelation 17 however does not really detail the judgement, it mostly explains the symbols.
It is Revelation 18 that details the judgement.

If Revelation 18 is NOT about the judgement of the great city explained in Revelation 17, then Revelation 17 is incomplete, since Revelation 17 just explains symbols, and that it is a great city characterized as a harlot that will be judged.

Revelation 17:2

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation 18

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Note how Revelation 18 continues to personify Babylon the Great, a great city, as a woman, the same way that Revelation 17 did, and both reinforce that the Kings of the world fornicated with her.
Now it is fair, to present that fornication in this sense, does not mean literal physical sex. Fornication and sexuality however, is commonly used as a metaphor for idolatry in the Old Testament, especially the book of Hosea.

let's look at another link

Revelation 17

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelation 18

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Note both passages the emphasis on wealth, the arraying in purple and scarlet (expensive colors), gold and precious stones and pearls. same in both passages. Keep in mind that cup in Revelation 17 as well, we'll go to that next.

Revelation 17

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelaion 18

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

So here they talk about the cup, a cup is used as a symbol for judgement, or violence. the cup of the wrath of God, etc, that language is used frequently in both the old testament and new. In this case the cup that Babylon had, was martyring the saints, and God, is going to judge and make "her" drink the cup of His wrath in retribution.

Revelation 18

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

So that's the judgement, that completes what the Angel was showing John in Revelation 17. Babylon the great was explained, a city that ruled the world and martyred the saints and made war against Jesus, who God judges by having the 10 kings destroy in an hour, as revenge for martyring the saints.

Revelation 19 begins by concluding this.. that started during the 7th vial in Revelation 16

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Nowhere does it suggest that 17 and 18 are about different things in fact by Revelation 19, it's apparent they are the same thing.
People have just been taught that it's different because the reformers wanted to make Revelation 17 be about Roman Catholicism but recognized that Revelation 18 doesn't really fit then.

Mind you I disagree sharply with Roman Catholicism on a lot of doctrine, and I can see how they fit SOME of the symbols in Revelation 17.
But because it doesn't also fit Revelation 18? well, it's not the Vatican, not as it currently is at least.

Who knows, maybe Neom gets built, and the pope relocates the base of operations for the Catholic Church to Neom and thus makes it all fit both Revelation 17 and 18. But be prepared for that to also be wrong. Anything beyond the actual facts presented in the bible itself is speculation at best.

 

[Douggg]

the Angel says that the woman is the great city that reigns over the Earth.
Revelation 18 explains a great city by which the merchants deceive the world and with which the kings fornicated, and it is called Babylon.

That's a lot of links man.

"the great city" is a generalized term, as it is also used to refer to Jerusalem, in Revelation 11:8.

The problem, Jamdoc, is that no physical city fits Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The first person to be slain upon the earth was Abel.

I acknowledge the comparisons you can make between verses in Revelation 18 and the great harlot in Revelation 17 to assert her identity as being Babylon the great - but there is simply no physical city that fits Babylon the great of Revelation 18:24.


This is Mystery Babylon the Great....

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

................................................................................

The ten kings who will give their kingdom over to the beast will destroy the physical great city, called the great harlot. What city do you think in the future will be destroyed by the ten kings? And what will be their motivation, that God puts in their heart to fulfill his will, to do so ?

From the tone of the text, God is against that city.

I think the city is Vatican city state, which God is against because of some of its claims are not in line with God's position, and because of the killing of innocents during the inquisition period. From the ten kings' standpoint, who will have embraced the beast's claim of God-hood - Vatican city state will stand as a sore spot that proclaims, no, Jesus is God. So they will eliminate it.

 

[Jamdoc]

"the great city" is a generalized term, as it is also used to refer to Jerusalem, in Revelation 11:8.

The problem, Jamdoc, is that no physical city fits Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The first person to be slain upon the earth was Abel.

I acknowledge the comparisons you can make between verses in Revelation 18 and the great harlot in Revelation 17 to assert her identity as being Babylon the great - but there is simply no physical city that fits Babylon the great of Revelation 18:24.

Great City is actually a term it doesn't mean just a single city all the time.. hold on

Genesis 10

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

In other translations that verse 12 says "that is the great city" Now some people take the context to mean Resen is the great city.
But rather, a bunch of cities all in the same region, Shinar, are listed.. and THAT is the great city... all those cities in the same region, in other words, a country or empire.

so if Babylon were referring to an empire rather than a specific city, that is how you can fit such criteria into "a great city", and within that "great city" which would include Israel in its borders, you would have the murders of the prophets, and Abel.

This is Mystery Babylon the Great....

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

................................................................................

The ten kings who will give their kingdom over to the beast will destroy the physical great city, called the great harlot. What city do you think in the future will be destroyed by the ten kings? And what will be their motivation, that God puts in their heart to fulfill his will, to do so ?

Not entirely sure, I lean towards Neom, or some other city that has not actually been built yet. We have to remember that Revelation and other prophecy will be carried out in a real world... but it is not necessarily our current world, things can change. Neom could end up not being funded properly and abandoned, who knows but God, could be some other yet unbuilt city, or some place that's currently an insignificant little podunk now. I believe it'll be sooner so it'd be something that's in the process of being built or something that exists and will be built up, but we could be wrong, things could go back to "normal" and all this been a false alarm, we don't know.

But there is a physical city, destroyed by 10 Kings.. because the bible says there is a city, is destroyed in an hour, by 10 kings.

From the tone of the text, God is against that city.

I think the city is Vatican city state, which God is against because of some of its claims are not in line with God's position, and because of the killing of innocents during the inquisition period. From the ten kings' standpoint, who will have embraced the beast's claim of God-hood - Vatican city state will stand as a sore spot that proclaims, no, Jesus is God. So they will eliminate it.

Well, again, does the Vatican have seaports and do a lot of trade? not that I'm aware of..

 

[Douggg]

Not entirely sure, I lean towards Neom, or some other city that has not actually been built yet. We have to remember that Revelation and other prophecy will be carried out in a real world... but it is not necessarily our current world, things can change. Neom could end up not being funded properly and abandoned, who knows but God, could be some other yet unbuilt city, or some place that's currently an insignificant little podunk now. I believe it'll be sooner so it'd be something that's in the process of being built or something that exists and will be built up, but we could be wrong, things could go back to "normal" and all this been a false alarm, we don't know.

I have not heard of the planned city of Neom by Saudi Arabia. I had to look it up. Something to watch.

Neom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why would the ten kings want to destroy that city, should it be built?

Well, again, does the Vatican have seaports and do a lot of trade? not that I'm aware of..

No, not Vatican city state. But then again, I am not reading anything about seaports in Revelation 17.

The seaport implication is in Revelation 18. I think that Babylon the great in Revelation 18, it's sudden fall is described in an analogy to the fall of a powerful, wealthy, trading city that suddenly is destroyed.

Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

One of the reasons I believe that Babylon the great is the spiritual kingdom, principality, of Satan and his angels.

 

[Timtofly]

@linux.poet

If I might interject something here. If I understand keras's view correctly, he thinks that them taking part in 1Thess4:15-17 event - will be changed/resurrected into longer life "mortal" bodies, not immortal bodies. Then a thousand years later, stand before the GWT judgment to receive immortal bodies.

His view is that not even those in Abraham's bosom have been resurrected and given life. No one is currently in heaven, nor ever will be. At the GWT they are not sent to heaven, but are on the New Earth in the New Jerusalem. All the dead still have to wait even the redeemed until the GWT event after the 1,000 years. People will keep dying and waiting during those last 1,000 years, as well.