What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[enoob57]

"I see" in regard to text can be Biblically demonstrated otherwise if one feels such is not correct.
In the absence of such demonstration, the meaning presented governs its discussion.

God's Word dictates through a hermeneutic process an objective truth period... how else can it be foundational for all else...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Acts chapter 2

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts chapter 4

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
​

I’ll save @ReverendRV the googling effort.

The calvinist view makes God responsible for evil.Since everything, every thought, every action has been predetermined beforehand by God then by default this includes evil, sin and all its consequences. So the rape of a girl is Gods will and it was predetermined to bring Him glory. What you meant for evil (rape ) God meant for good. ( YIKES ). That is the problem in Calvinism, its definition of predestination , divine determinism and the problem of evil.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

God's Word dictates through a hermeneutic process an objective truth period... how else can it be foundational for all else...

The meaning of God's word doesn't depend on a human-constructed hermeneutic developed for the examination of human-authored writing, as though the mind of God were equivalent to the mind of man.
While men put pen to paper, Scripture is not the mind of men, but the mind of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
Scripture has nothing to do with anything other than the mind of God.
And it is the context of all Scripture which dictates that objective truth of the mind of God.
"Foundational" is determined by the context of all Scripture, not by a human hermeneutic.

The only thing outside of Scripture with bearing on the truth of Scripture is the Greek dictionary.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Clare73]

Friend, I'm not here to show off. You will get to know me...

Looking forward to a summary of just your principles regarding "Calvinism" stated in their logical sequence.

 

[misput]

The meaning of God's word doesn't depend on a human-constructed hermeneutic developed for the examination of human-authored writing, as though the mind of God were equivalent to the mind of man.
While men put pen to paper, Scripture is not the mind of men, but the mind of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
Scripture has nothing to do with anything other than the mind of God.
And it is the context of all Scripture which dictates that objective truth of the mind of God.
"Foundational" is determined by the context of all Scripture, not by a human hermeneutic.

The only thing outside of Scripture with bearing on the truth of Scripture is the Greek dictionary.

Seems to leave out the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Seems to leave out the Holy Spirit?

I don't think it was intentional and I'm sure believes the Holy Spirit is essential in knowing and understanding the truth,

 

[Clare73]

Seems to leave out the Holy Spirit?

Red herring. . .

The contrast is specifically between hermeneutics and context of all Scripture, not between all relevant reference points.

 

[RickReads]

I don't think it was intentional and I'm sure believes the Holy Spirit is essential in knowing and understanding the truth,

Baptists are weak in matters of the Spirit. That's why I had to leave them behind.

 

[Clare73]

I don't think it was intentional and I'm sure believes
Holy Spirit is essential in knowing and understanding the truth,

It was a red herring. . .

 

[Clare73]

Baptists are weak in matters of the Spirit. That's why I had to leave them behind.

As are Messianics in regard to the NT?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Red herring. . .

So you don't believe the Holy Spirit is necessary to guide one into truth ? Is that your position ?

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

 

[RickReads]

As are Messianics in regard to the NT?

If you find the right ones, Messianics have the best theology I have ever seen. I have nothing but respect for it.

In fact, I covet their knowledge, they read Hebrew and it gives them an advantage. I`m not Jewish so I can't rightly become a Messianic but I covet them so for that reason I invented the term Messianiac. It has an appearance of mockery but in truth, it is the opposite.

 

[Clare73]

If you find the right ones, Messianics have the best theology I have ever seen. I have nothing but respect for it.

Who are the "right ones?"

The "best theology" is the one in agreement with the whole counsel of God in light of the NT.

And what is a "Messianic"?
All those who believe in Christ are Christians.
All born-again Jews are Christians.
All Christians are to receive and believe authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

Why the "Messianic?"

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Who are the "right ones?"

The "best theology" is the one in agreement with the whole counsel of God in light of the NT.

And what is a "Messianic"?
All those who believe in Christ are Christians.
All born-again Jews are Christians.
All Christians are to receive and believe authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

Why the "Messianic?"

Are you familiar with Jews for Jesus ?

Home

What Are Messianic Jews?
by Jews for Jesus |April 21 2021
Messianic Jews are like the surprise potato chip in a bag of tortilla chips: unexpected, surprising, and maybe a little confusing at first! But our faith in Yeshua (Jesus) as our Jewish Messiah has changed our lives and has a solid historical foundation. While it may not be the “the norm” among the Jewish community, our continued faith amplifies our purpose as members of the Jewish nation—being set apart to bring hope to humanity.

Just typing “what are Messianic Jews?” into the Google search bar turns up a plethora of misinformation. However, these misconceptions can be transformed into meaningful questions that can begin to unravel the knots of Messianic Jewish history and assert its position within the Jewish community. In reality, there are thriving groups of Messianic Jewish people all over the world. What do they believe, and how do they practice those beliefs?

Messianic Jewish Faith Has an Ancient, Jewish History
Evidence of Jewish people following Yeshua as the Messiah can be traced back to about AD 30. All of Yeshua’s first followers were Jewish, and the writers of the New Testament were Jewish.

The first Messianic Jewish community was led by four Jewish men: Yeshua’s brother Yakov,1 Shimon from Capernaum,2 Shaul who was a student of Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 22:3),3 and Yochanan from Bethsaida.4 These men were dedicated to the Jewish faith. Along with the other Jewish followers of Yeshua, they prayed three times a day and sacrificed in the Temple,5 shared ritual meals together,6 gathered in synagogues on Shabbat,7 observed Jewish rituals and feasts,8 and met in the Temple and on Saturday nights to hear teaching and encourage each other.9 In addition to the original followers Yeshua started out with, a good number of kohanim (“priests”) and Pharisees also came to recognize him as Messiah.10

These Jewish followers of Yeshua have been documented for several centuries as an established religious entity called the notzrim (“Nazarenes”). Ancient church historian Eusebius records that Jude’s grandsons (Yeshua’s grandnephews), James and Zoker, were once questioned by the Roman Emperor Domitian in regard to being Davidic heirs.11 In the second century, Jacob of Kefar Sakhnin,12 is recorded in the Talmud as a min (“heretic”) who exchanged words “of minuth” with Rabbi Eliezer. When the rabbi was later arrested on charges of heresy, he believed it was due to his conversation with Jacob, whom he refers to as talmidei Yeshu ha’Notzri (“a student of Jesus the Nazarene”).13 Epiphanius, an early Christian historian, mentions encountering communities of Nazarenes all the way through the fourth century.14 Jerome, a Christian priest from the Roman province of Dalmatia, mentions Nazarene literature being housed in the library at Caesarea,15 and also writes to Augustine about them in the year AD 404. The contents of that letter reveal that the Nazarenes were present “throughout all the synagogues of the East,” and while they held sound doctrine, his perspective of them was that “while they desire to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other.”16

What Happened to Ancient Messianic Jews?
The Council of Nicea took place in AD 325 as an attempt to unify the “church.” Unfortunately, Christian antisemitism certainly existed before this point, but it was codified at Nicea. There were no Jewish bishops included at the council. A decision was made to replace Passover with Easter, and to replace Shabbat with a Sunday Sabbath. Emperor Constantine is quoted saying, “Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Saviour a different way.”17

After that fateful council, Messianic Jews had one of three options: assimilate into the church and give up their Jewish identity, go back to the synagogue and deny their faith in Yeshua, or meet separately from either institution. Based on the continuing antisemitism of many of the church fathers, it seems likely all three of these occurred. Of those Messianic Jews who did continue to practice a Jewish faith in Yeshua privately, most accounts have been lost to history. However, some glimpses do appear.

Resurgence of Messianic Jewish Faith
In the mid-1800s, there was a movement of many Jewish people in Eastern Europe coming to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. Among these were Joseph Rabinowitz, who founded the first modern Messianic Jewish synagogue.18 Another was Carl Schwartz, who established the Hebrew-Christian Alliance, a network of Messianic Jews in the United Kingdom. Perhaps among the most influential of these pioneers was Tzvi Isaac Lichtenstein, a scholar who wrote New Testament commentaries from a profound Jewish perspective.19 These pioneers paved the way for the twentieth century re-establishment of faith in Yeshua as a Jewish practice.

Two generations were raised as Jewish followers of Yeshua through two world war eras—and the Holocaust. By the time the tumult of the 60s rolled around, there was a deep spiritual awakening. Many more young Jewish people became convinced that Yeshua was the promised Messiah. They saw no reason that their faith in Yeshua should prohibit them from embracing their Jewish faith and culture. “In 1972, at a conference of the Hebrew-Christian Alliance, a group of young Jewish believers voted to change the organization’s name to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA). They described themselves as Messianic Jews instead of Hebrew Christians and identified their practice as Messianic Judaism instead of Hebrew-Christianity.”20

This important distinction inspired the new generation to intentionally and proudly express their Jewish identity along with their faith in Yeshua.

Contemporary Messianic Jews
Jewish believers in Jesus today call themselves by a variety of terms. Some prefer “Messianic Jews,” while some say they’re “a part of Messianic Judaism,” and others opt to be called “Jewish Christians.”

All of these people, regardless of chosen labels and practicing their faith in different ways, are in fact, Jewish followers of Jesus, just like those of the first century. Some are involved in ministries like Jews for Jesus, a nonprofit organization that advocates for Yeshua as Messiah within the Jewish community. Others attend either Messianic congregations or Christian churches (sometimes both). Some of the Messianic congregations they attend are a part of larger congregational organizations such as the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) or Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA).

There are more than 350,000 Messianic Jewish people who “worship in their own congregations worldwide, with approximately 20,000 of those residing in Israel.”21 Most Messianic Jewish synagogues and congregations hold weekly services on Shabbat, observe Jewish holidays, and conduct Torah services. In addition to reading from the Tanakh, they also believe the New Testament writings to be equal in authority. At some congregations, traditional liturgy may be mixed with contemporary worship music. Others stick to one or the other. As with the larger Jewish community, degrees of observance vary greatly among Messianic Jews, but it can be said that each respective community promotes faith in Yeshua as Messiah and the Son of God as being compatible with Jewish life.

Messianic Jewish Life Today
So, what are Messianic Jews? We are people who have a strong Jewish history and identity. We are honored and unashamed to be living out that heritage hand-in-hand with our faith that Yeshua is the Messiah and lived a perfect life, reconciling humanity with God through his teachings and in his death and resurrection. We believe he will return as King Messiah and restore all things. We are committed to seeing faith in Yeshua continue to spread and grow as a Jewish movement into the future. In the words of noted Messianic Jewish pioneer, Abram Poljak, “If Yeshua is the Messiah and King of the Jews—then the Messianic Jewish movement is the most important event in our time, the symbol of the changing aeon.”22

 

[RickReads]

Who are the "right ones?"

The "best theology" is the one in agreement with the whole counsel of God in light of the NT.

And what is a "Messianic"?
All those who believe in Christ are Christians.
All born-again Jews are Christians.
All Christians are to receive and believe authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

Why the "Messianic?"

The right ones are Messianics who are real Jews and believe in grace. Christian is a word that was a Roman insult. You don't need to be a Christian to believe in Yeshua ben Yahweh.

 

[Clare73]

Are you familiar with Jews for Jesus ? . . .

They saw no reason that their faith in Yeshua should prohibit them from embracing their Jewish faith and culture.

Thanks.

But doesn't that present a problem regarding NT teaching where the law. . ."and every other commandment there might be" is fulfilled by loving our neighbor (Romans 13:8-10)?

That is not the teaching of the Jewish faith.

"Messianic" seems to be a carve-out for not believing and submitting to all authoritative NT apostolic teaching, for keeping one foot in the OT, and adapting the NT to the OT, contrary to
"The OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed."

 

[John Mullally]

Which leaves us with nothing to replace with the "promise of entering his rest."

And then, Hebrews 4:1 is not referring to imputed righteousness

The later half of Romans 5:18 is referring to the ransom paid by Jesus for all men towards our justification any way you slice it. You can’t waive it off through cunning. And per Hebrews 4:1-2 any gift, payment, or promise from God is received through faith

 

[Clare73]

So you don't believe the Holy Spirit is necessary to guide one into truth ? Is that your position ?

Thanks for the great Scriptures below, but you know better than that.

Does not always specifically using the words "Holy Spirit" thereby mean the Holy Spirit is excluded from his province therein?

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

 

[Clare73]

The right ones are Messianics who are real Jews and believe in grace. Christian is a word that was a Roman insult. You don't need to be a Christian to believe in Yeshua ben Yahweh.

How does being named after Christ become an insult?