What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[QvQ]

The question I had was
Does baptism confer
1) Justifying grace?
2) Non justifying Grace?
3) Or is baptism merely symbolic but necessary?
4) Or symbolic and not necessary?

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then faith and baptism are necessary rather than faith alone.
What are the theological arguments involved in the questions outlined above?
This question is relevant to Calvinism?
I would choose number 2 but not certain.

 

[philadelphos]

The question I had was
Does baptism confer
1) Justifying grace?
2) Non justifying Grace?
3) Or is baptism merely symbolic but necessary?
4) Or symbolic and not necessary?

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then faith and baptism are necessary rather than faith alone.
What are the theological arguments involved in the questions outlined above?
This question is relevant to Calvinism?
I would choose number 2 but not certain.

Neither 4 options are fully correct as 1) and 2) work together dynamically, contingent upon one's faith.

Baptism is promissory as a covenant/contract conditional on "belief". The formula is belief + baptism, or baptism + belief: “He that believeth (pisteusas, πιστεύσας, aorist active) and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mk 16:16) i.e. faith is active belief.

There are 2 parts joined in baptism (and or circumcision): a person's belief/faith joins into God's promise/covenant.

Yet it's God the covenanter who continuously seeks his covenantee out. Seen also in Christ's marriage to his Church. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Tim 2:13)

Deu 7:9, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations"

In Acts 2 the formula is repentance + baptism: "Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)

About the justification etc, "Paul traces the wider import of circumcision beyond justification so as to include regeneration and sanctification. ... The theology of circumcision can be summarized in the ideas of malediction, consecration, identification, justification, and spiritual qualification. The ancient rituals of covenant ratification, both biblical and their international parallels, provide the original historical orientation for the interpretation of this ordinance. In this light circumcision is found to be an oath rite and, as such, a pledge of consecration and a symbol of malediction. That is its primary, symbolic significance." (John Murray, pp 123-124)

Hence, the WCF view:

"BAPTISM is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[a] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[c] of his ingrafting into Christ,[d] of regeneration,[e] of remission of sins,[f] and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life:[g] which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.[h]" (WCF 28.1)

"Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[n] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it,[o] or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[p]" (WCF 28.5)

Hence, "For Paul, baptism itself does not "inaugurate" the body of Christ, nor is the body of Christ the sum total of all baptized Christians. On the contrary, in some ways the body of Christ existed prior to, and even apart from, baptism." (Richard P. Carlson, The Role of Baptism in Paul's Thought)

So that, "The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[q] yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.[r]" (WCF 28.6)

Does that help? lol

 

[QvQ]

So that, "The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[q] yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.[r]" (WCF 28.6)

Does that help? lol

The Question is:
What is conferred by Baptism?
The choices are 1) Justifying Grace 2) Non Justifying Grace 3) Ceremonial initiation but necessary 4) Ceremonial initiation and not necessary.

Grace, according to WFC, is conferred but not justifying Grace.
The WFC seems to agree with #2 as it is "grace promised" is "conferred" by the Holy Ghost to such as that grace belongeth according to the counsel of God's own will.

"yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it (baptism), as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it,[o] or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[p]" (WCF 28.5)"

Baptism does not justify. It does not confer justification with or without grace to a person nor does it insure a person receiving the baptism is "justified."

#2 is the answer because justifying grace is not conferred by Baptism. IMHO

 

[philadelphos]

The Question is:
What is conferred by Baptism?
The choices are 1) Justifying Grace 2) Non Justifying Grace 3) Ceremonial initiation but necessary 4) Ceremonial initiation and not necessary.

Grace, according to WFC, is conferred but not justifying Grace.
The WFC seems to agree with #2 as it is "grace promised" is "conferred" by the Holy Ghost to such as that grace belongeth according to the counsel of God's own will.

"yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it (baptism), as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it,[o] or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[p]" (WCF 28.5)"

Baptism does not justify. It does not confer justification with or without grace to a person nor does it insure a person receiving the baptism is "justified."

#2 is the answer because justifying grace is not conferred by Baptism. IMHO

Everything is contingent upon one's faith. Recall Peter walking on water, it's faith in Christ that prevents us from drowning in our sin. Faith must be active and continuous, thus any benefit of baptism is temporary. To prevent us "being like dead fishes carried with the common stream".

See the Savoy Declaration 1658,

For Experience hath shown, that the common sort of mere Doctrinal Professors (such as the most are nowadays), whose highest education is but freedom from moral scandal, joined with devotion to Christ through mere Education, such as in many Turks is found towards Mohammed, that these finding and feeling themselves not much concerned in the active part of Religion, so they may have the honor (especially upon a Reformation of a new Refinement) that themselves are approved Members, admitted to the Lord’s Supper, and their Children to the Ordinance of Baptism; they regard not other matters (as Gallio did not), but do easily and readily give up themselves unto their Guides, being like dead fishes carried with the common stream; whereas those that have a further renewed Light by a work of the Holy Ghost, whether saving or temporary, are upon the quite contrary grounds apt to be busy about, and inquisitive into, what they are to receive and practice, or wherein their Consciences are professedly concerned and involved: And thereupon they take the freedom to examine and try the spirits, whether of God or no: And from hence are more apt to dissatisfaction, and from thence to run into division, and many of such proving to be enlightened but with a temporary, not saving Faith (who have such a work of the Spirit upon them, and profession in them, as will and doth approve itself to the judgment of the Saints, and ought to be so judged, until they be otherwise discovered) who at long-run, prove hypocrites, through indulgence unto Lusts, and then out of their Lusts persist to hold up these divisions unto breach of, or departings from, Churches, and the Ordinances of God, and God is even with them for it, they waxing worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived; and even many of those that are sincere, through a mixture of darkness and erroneousness in their Judgments, are for a season apt out of Conscience to be led away with the error of others, which lie in wait to deceive.

The reading of the Scriptures, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing of psalms; as also the administration of baptism and the Lord's Supper, are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear. Solemn humiliations, with fastings and thanksgivings upon special occasions, are in their several times and seasons to be used in a holy and religious manner.

Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ to be unto the party baptised a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ to walk in newness of life; which ordinance is by Christ's own appointment to be continued in his Church until the end of the world.

Although it be a great sin to conterin or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it; or that all that are baptised are undoubtedly regenerated.

Baptism itself alone does not justify. Justification is through faith.

As God bath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he by the eternal and most free purpose of his will fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified and saved, but the elect only.

... to be by Christ in time justified.

It pleased God, in his eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus his only begotten Son, according to a covenant made between them both, to be the Mediator between God and man; the Prophet, Priest, and King, the Head and Saviour of his Church, the Heir of all things and Judge of the world; unto whom he did from all eternity give a people to be his seed, and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

Faith that works by love.

Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ, and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.

That is why "baptism or baptismal righteousness is a quibbling point as pharisaic as washing of hands", because of all of that is temporary. We should be arguing about HOW to love thy neighbour better, HOW to love and serve God better.

 

[QvQ]

SDF 29:1 1568
This is a partial of what you posted above:
Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ to be unto the party baptised a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,

So it does confer grace but not justifying grace

SDF 11.2 said:
Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ, and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;

Thank you, very interesting answers. I was correct when I chose #2 even if I was a bit hazy as to why that was the correct answer for me.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Everything is contingent upon one's faith. Recall Peter walking on water, it's faith in Christ that prevents us from drowning in our sin. Faith must be active and continuous, thus any benefit of baptism is temporary. To prevent us "being like dead fishes carried with the common stream".

See the Savoy Declaration 1658,









Baptism itself alone does not justify. Justification is through faith.



... to be by Christ in time justified.



Faith that works by love.



That is why "baptism or baptismal righteousness is a quibbling point as pharisaic as washing of hands", because of all of that is temporary. We should be arguing about HOW to love thy neighbour better, HOW to love and serve God better.

Amen its by faith and Jesus taught the same thing that their faith saved them and healed them, not the faith He gave them .

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!

 

[philadelphos]

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Maybe not. I'll try demonstrate.

Lk 7:50: "And he said to the woman, Thy (σου sou) faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

Sou (σου) is a 'personal / possessive pronoun'. Meaning she 'has faith', she 'possesses faith', or that that the 'faith' is personally hers. So yes, she does possess said faith but it doesn't exclude the possibility that said faith wasn't given to her or gotten from somewhere.

Similarly here in Rom 5:1, "justified by faith (ἐκ πίστεως ek pisteos)"

pisteos (πίστεως) is in genitive case, meaning "of faith".
ek (ἐκ) denotes exit or emission out of.
Together the expression means "justified out of (of) faith".
It doesn't say where faith originates.

Only in Rom 10:17 does Paul explain that "Faith cometh by hearing (ἐξ ἀκοῆς eks akoes, genitive singular), and hearing by the word of God."

The origin of what is heard comes from a 'singular' source, originating from a 'singular' place/person/thing.

"And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus." (Mt 14:29)

However, how a person comes to 'hear' from God could also be via multiple forms/pathways/media, i.e. direct oral, physical, literal, allegorical, abstract, anything really.

e.g. via dream

"In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man." (Job 33:15-17) -- This I have experienced since I was very young, but I didn't understand it until my 30s, after repentance and confession.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, it was a good discussion !